Suet (Part 2)

Also see Feeders, Feeding, Feeding Philosophy, Feeding Frequency, Feeding Mealworms, Feeding and Raising Mealworms, Mealworm Suppliers, Feeding Berries, Feeding Seeds, Feeding Prepared, Diet (What Bluebirds Eat), Feeding Emergency, Feeding Other, Feeding Planting, and Feeding Seasons.

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:20 PM
RE: Suet, Lard, etc Rendered suet, Bruce. Sorry, in a hurry. Evelyn

From: Sweetolive [mailto:sweetolive1"at"att.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:42 PM
Subject: Suet

Evelyn said "My husband refused to eat right for many years and last year he paid a dear price. It could have been worse, but he did have to have blockages corrected." Remember we're discussing birds and not human digestion. If we ate fecal sacs, raw insects, etc. as do the bluebirds, we would have many medical problems. I don't think you can automatically assume that a high cholesterol diet that is bad for humans is necessarily bad for birds. Olive Louuisiana

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:58 PM
RE: Suet

If you read what the dr. said, he indicated that a diet high in fat was not good for the birds. I was only comparing what eating wrong can do to a human and a bird, etc. The dr. also stated that the hydrogenated issue with Crisco was bad for the birds and it is bad for humans. I think we all understood the issue better after seeing what he wrote. We know as we have all been told that it is bad for us. We were told it is bad for chickens and what it does to their systems. That is why I used the illustration of bad eating habits, be it man or bird. If we give them a diet of Crisco laden goodies for 5 or 6 months out of the year, I don't think we are doing what is in the best interest of the birds. Evelyn

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: FW: The continuing shortening vs lard vs suet question - another chapter

I received this from Dr. Klasing this morning. Evelyn

From: Kirk Klasing Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 6:46 AM To: Evelyn Cooper Subject: RE: FW: The continuing shortening vs lard vs suet question - another chapter If your group wants more detailed information on basic aspects of avian nutrition,consult my textbook: Comparative Avian Nutrition and is available fromOxford University Press. http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/LifeSciences/VertebrateZoology /Ornithology/?view=usa&ci=0851992196 Thanks. KCKlasing

[Note from Webmaster: see related thread requesting an end to discussion on Consideration]

From: Cher [mailto:bluebirdnut"at"a-znet.com]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 1:54 PM
Subject: Permission

Does anyone who chimed in on the now-infamous Crisco Cafuffle object to my adding your comments/observations on a page I am adding to my website on the question? The comments would be quotes, not digested (no pun intended) versions, and only superfluous comments not relating to the question would be edited out. I can't include everyone's comments, but I'd like to include a variety of opinions. If you prefer not to be included, I will respect your wishes. You may e-mail me privately if so. Cher

From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:58 PM
Subject: Mealworms/nutrition

I shared Cher's post about "The continuing shortening vs lard vs suet question - another chapter" with Linda Janilla Peterson and thought you all might want to read her response. Her points about mealworm nutrional value are interesting too. It would be pretty easy to transfer some big mealies into dry dog food a day or two before feeding them to the bluebirds. I think Haleya already does this? In a Message dated 10/28/2004 11:43:21 PM Central Daylight Time, PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com writes: I thought I would share this one post with you from the Bluebird-L list Yes, interesting. I think it also shows that the recipes that include melted suet [rendering it into "tallow"] AND the peanut butter works in the way he describes to aid digestability. Addition of vitamin E to prevent rancidity is an acceptable idea - not necessary if one is a concientious bird feeder. Addition of vitamins - well, not really needed again, if one is supplementing a wild bird's diet. Has anyone brought up the "nutrition" of mealworms????????? This is a greatly fed bluebird item, and seems to me would bear even more discussion than suet mixes. Mealworms are nutritionally deficit. Zoos and rehabbers are aware of this - they put the next day's mealworms into dog biscuits or a high quality dog/cat food. The mealworms then feed off the dry food. The worms are fed to the birds when the feed is inside the worm - not yet digested. The birds then eat the worm, obtaining the high nutrition level of the pet food. [actually monkey biscuits are better]. There is also a very real concern about the indigestable exo-skeleton of the mealworm. Depending on the quantity of worms taken, the outer shell of the mealworm can cause fecal impaction and has resulted in bird deaths [captivity]. Parent bluebirds will "whack" insects to soften them for younger birds in the nest - but stop that preparation at some point. [I've never read about any study at what age they stop]. Interesting stuff for discussion! Linda

From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 11:07 AM
Subject: IS THE HORSE REALLY DEAD?

Dear Friends, In case you prematurely hit the delete button, or in case you did not read the post that I gave the list about the uneatable Crisco test and for those that would like to know how to do the test, just e-mail me directly, so you can learn how to do the test for yourself. For those of you who have worn out their finger by repeatedly hitting your delete buttons over this topic, rest assure, I will personally not post about this subject again unless pressed to do so by the Bluebird L members. Cheers and as always... Happy Bluebird Trails To You, John Schuster

From: Cher [mailto:bluebirdnut"at"a-znet.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:36 PM
Re: IS THE HORSE REALLY DEAD?

John, Keith, Evenly, Judy, the Dotty(ie)s, Lana, JoAnn, Shane & Emily, Stan, Paula, Bet and others too numerous to mention: ...Thanks to you all for your comments. I know I still have questions -- questions that I believe are deserving of rightful answers. For example, why did Dr. Klasing say he didn't advise feeding raw suet? As some pointed out, they've been feeding it for years. Is it only the rancidity issue, or is there something more? And I wasn't quite clear on how adding vitamin E would prevent a suet cake from going rancid. I want to follow up with Dr. Klasing and ask for a couple of clarifications. I also want to get the opinion of a couple of other "experts" so we can compare. I don't think this horse was dead at all. Still, I hesitate to post more on this subject here. For every appreciative Lister that posts, there may be dozens more that are unsubscribing. All I can think is that they must have very short fuses, and very little curiosity. I'm not one to buck the "rules" lightly. Well, OK, I did get myself banned from another forum this year, but let's not go into that. I'm normally a very law-abiding person, and I have no problem sticking with the program. My problem is this -- when someone takes it upon themselves to act as the Topic Police, and tells those of us who are enjoying a respectful (if spirited) discussion to stuff a cork in it, and they aren't officially censured for their bossiness, we're left to wonder whose head it is that will end up on the chopping block if we dare post on the subject again. I may not agree with it, but I have to accept that it's just the way it is here, and if I don't like it I should go start my own forum. Oh, wait -- I did that already! And see, I'm still hanging out here, as well. You're all so charming I can't help myself! I come here mostly to ASK questions (and occasionally post an answer for a newbie, because those who get the digest won't read the question right away). I started my BBNut Cafe because some people really prefer the Message board format over a mailing list format. My rules are simple: Be Nice; if you start a new topic make the subject line clear; BE NICE; Discuss anything decent to your heart's content; BE NICE; Have Fun; BE NICE! I'm about to resurrect the horse and add the information on The Great Crisco Cafuffle to my website (nobody's objected to being quoted, so I'm assuming it will be OK). When it's published I'll post again to give you the link. I'm also posting it at the Cafe, where anyone is welcome to read, add to, discuss, question, analyze. If I find out anything new, I'll post it there. And here? I'm not sure. I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude. Meanwhile, you'll know where you can find the info. Cher

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 6:55 PM
Subject: FW: Reply from San Diego zoo re shortening

I was looking back over this e-mail and Cher asked the question about the statement that shortening would "make birds sick". The answer the person gave, stated that OIL was no problem. In Dr. Klansing's post, he stated that oil was o.k., but shortening was not recommended and it was because of the transfatty issue. It looks like the person answering Cher's question did not answer it for shortening, instead stated oil. This would make a difference. Evelyn

RE: October 30, 2004 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: Do Bluebirds have lips?
From: Evelyn Cooper

...I suggest reading the dr.s comments again about suet, lard, shortening and peanut butter. I have read it more than once. He suggests using rendered suet which is then tallow and mix it in a mixture of 80% tallow and 20% oil. He says peanut butter is acceptable. When I put the peanut butter ball on the feeder, it is cold weather and the ball gets firm and brittle. Sometimes I break little pieces off and they love it that way. However, they do stand there and peck on it. When it gets warm enough for it to be gooey, they have long abandoned the feeder for the delicious insects. You don't have to worry about them getting their beaks stuck together and I don't think they have what we call lips. One person was concerned in a post to me about the drs. comments about feeding raw suet. She said birds have been eating it for thousands of years and wondered why it was not recommended. We can only speculate as to his reason for it unless we research it. Another person pointed out to me that the birds that eat at McDonald's seem to thrive. However, the particular kind that eats at McDonald's are prolific breeders and if their life span is cut short from hydrogenated products, I doubt we would notice it. Just my opinion. I think we definitely need to SUPPLEMENT feed the birds in the winter!! Mine take care of themselves in the summer. I say if a bird is hungry, he will eat what you offer if you know what that bird's diet is. Let's remember, Education is the key!!! Evelyn Cooper, ...Delhi, LA

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 10:51 AM
Subject: Feeding The Birds

I copied this from the site below which has some great reading. I notice they use 2 parts besides cornmeal in the mix and one part included is vegetable shortening. I wonder if they have dug into the issue as much as we are attempting to do since we have had advice against it by one dr. so far. "Suet and bird puddings (reconstituted suet and seed): Peanut butter-cornmeal mixes (one part peanut butter, four parts cornmeal, and one part vegetable shortening; good for winter and summer feeding) or whole and crushed peanuts attract woodpeckers, jays, chickadees, titmice, bushtits, nuthatches, brown creepers, wrens, kinglets, northern mockingbirds, brown thrashers, starlings, and yellow-rumped and pine warblers." http://magazine.audubon.org/backyard/backyard0001.html

Evelyn Cooper, ...Delhi, LA

From: Cher [mailto:bluebirdnut"at"a-znet.com]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:29 AM
Subject: FAT? PHAT!!!!

I finally eked out enough time to add The Great Crisco Cafuffle to Bluebird Nut and the Cafe. Links to both below. You're welcome to add anything you like at the Cafe, member or not. It isn't necessary to join in order to post. Just remember my cardinal rule -- BE NICE! Oh, that's right, I'm talking to BLUEBIRDERS, I don't have to remind you of that! http://p202.ezboard.com/fbluebirdnutcafefrm2 - The Cafe (in the topic "The Great Crisco Cafuffle") http://www.bluebirdnut.com/the_fat_question.htm - The website Cher

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:39 AM
Subject: digestion in birds

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
I don't think most birds have a salivary gland to help with predigesting of starches like we do. When they swallow food it goes into their crop where juices are added to the food and it warms up, then microbes and enzymes begin to break down the food. It then passes a little at a time into their gizzard where small rocks, stones and even pieces of glass are used to grind the food into smaller pieces before it passes into their intestine.

The length of the intestine is very important to the birds! Tree Swallows have a longer intestine than a Barn Swallow even though they are very closely related. This longer section of intestine allows Tree Swallows to eat, digest and most importantly extract nutrients from fruits and berries, foods that are worthless to Purple Martins and other swallows. Insects are easier to get nutrition from than vegetable matter with a shorter length of intestine. The shorter the intestine is the lighter the bird is and the faster they can fly.

The reason the Doctor mentioned adding vitamins to the corn meal mix is that many essential vitamins are oil soluble which means that they would go into suspension easier in Crisco, lard or suet than digestive water/acids, the vitamins stay in the globs of oil moving through the intestine and pass out in the birds droppings without most being absorbed.

Mineral oil, commonly ingested for a laxative, is distilled from crude oil and is the liquid form of petroleum jelly. If you ingested similar amounts of suet, lard or vegetable oil these probably also would be a laxative BUT eaten raw they might also be a carrier of bad "bugs" that are normally killed when you use these products for cooking.

To make liquid vegetable oils into hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated solid or semi solid products they add hydrogen gas to the product which allows some hydrogen molecules to bond into the complex oil molecules. The hydrogen molecule changes the straight chain of the original oil molecule by making it bend at 90 degrees. The more hydrogen molecules bonded in the mixture the more 90 degree bends in the molecule and the higher the temperature the oil can withstand before it starts to break down. In other words the longer, hotter and more times you can deep fry with the same oil before throwing it out.

Simply put a natural vegetable oil molecule is straight and every hydrogen molecule added to the chain bends the original molecule. If the birds intestine wall were a board and the oil molecule were a nail is it easier to drive a bent nail or a straight nail through a board? Once the bent nail enters the blood stream is it easier to swallow a straight nail or a fish hook? Which of these would tend to hang up in a clump?

Laying hens that produce "EGGS PLUS" eggs (super high in vitamins, minerals and essential amino acids) are fed a constant diet of a very oily food (fish oils, plant oils, a top secret formula). It very much resembles our peanut butter cornmeal mixes. These birds are only fed this mix for X-number of weeks and then this rich oily food is rotated to another batch of laying hens giving these other hens a "break" from the oil.

There is so much oil in this special diet that the hens excrete the oil into their feathers. Their feathers become oily enough that dust and dirt collects on them and they resemble the filthy looking House Sparrows that hangout at McDonalds eating French Fries instead of the pristine white hens eating mostly grain one row over in the same hen house!

We HAVE to assume the wild birds are smart enough to vary their diet and if not then a few species of birds eating at feeders at scattered backyards, mostly in the Northeastern States, are going to have more oil in their feathers and have "loose" oily bowel movements and some of them will probably have clogged arteries.

If there is a huge difference in the digestive ability in the swallow family then we may never spend the money to actually investigate the difference between a woodpecker,chickadee, wren, bluebird or starling, all birds who like the cornmeal/ peanut butter mixes. By the way our family has fed a peanut butter/cornmeal mix off and on for more than 40 years and we NEVER added any lard, suet or shortening to the mix. KK

From: ken"at"wildlanders.com [mailto:ken"at"wildlanders.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:43 PM
Subject: Suet Science

With the suet feeding season upon us, I thought I would provide some real hard experiences in the types of suet out there available for wild birds. A very long post and more than you probably wanted to know about suet. But I think it clarifies some of the issues out there.

I am hoping there are some birders that are cattle folks here. But not TOO BIG of cattle folks because I want to stay clear of beef  politics - though I am sure I am going to stir up the beef industry in presenting this info to the general public. Note that all of the information here is from my personal experience in working with beef products. So for legal reasons, I should say this is all conjecture - based on my observations rather than formal studies funded by the beef industry or the USDA. I would suggest that my observations may be more valid.

I say it as I see it rather than 'political correctness' or monetary influence.
And I would also suggest that makes me a real cowboy too.

My goal here is not to cause problems with the beef industry.  I am hoping to confirm and possibly find some more answers in regards to suet products for birds. Particularly from the smaller home cattle growers - those who grow their own beef.  I am about to add a whole lot of knowledge to the feeding of wild birds. Note that I am a degreed ecologist (BS Range and Wildlife Habitat Mgt, Washington State University) with a lot of knowledge and science in the raising of beef (the 'range' management part of the degree).

For the last two years I have been comparing two kinds of beef kidney fat. Both are the slabs of fat found under the kidneys. One is USDA choice fed beef. The other grass fed home grown cattle processed through a custom meat shop. Note that I live in a relatively small rural town and lots of folks here raise their own beef. What I have found is that the differences in the fats are very evident.   I want to share that information with folks here for both comment and on behalf of the health of the birds (and maybe some other creatures too). I have read a lot of confusing information about hardness and softness of fats and this may clarify some of those issues. It has to do with the type of beef you are working with. Not all beef is the same.

First, let me say right up front that I was certain to obtain the kidney fat slabs from under the kidneys (inner cavity of the carcass) so I know I have the right type of suet from both the USDA inspected shops and the custom beef shops. I also work a little bit with the strap fat from the meat cuts. So I know the difference between the two types of fat (actually there are many types of fats but these are the two main ones). But... and this is a big BUT... the facilities differ from place to place and you may find some overlap in the findings I am presenting here. 

Note in particular that some USDA inspected plants do process some organic and 'grass fed' beef products. But generally, there are differences in the diets of the majority of cattle processed through the two types of facilities. Let me explain the difference between the two type of slaughter houses because it is of importance to the birds - and certainly important to the economics and the politics in the beef industry.

USDA inspected beef plants operate under the federal governments US Department of Agriculture. USDA inspected beef can be sold retail to the public. They are closely associated with the common slaughterhouses.  They are also known as "Fed Lots" you see on the highways in the west where the animals are all crowded into one small area. The diets of such animals are intently controlled rather than finished off free on the pasture (as is done on the typical home farm situation). The diets of Fed Lot animals are strictly controlled. And it has an impact on the physical characteristics of both the meat and the fats (flavor and physical nature of the products).

Custom Meat facilities are NOT USDA inspected. Let me qualify that. The plants are inspected for cleanliness but the meat is not inspected for retail sales and consumption to the general public. Only USDA inspected products can be sold to the public. And nearly all of that goes through the large (and very politically powerful) beef industry Fed Lots. That is the main economical difference between the two facilities - Custom and USDA

If you raise your own beef, you typically call an onsite custom meat facility to kill, butcher and cut and wrap the animal. You can eat the meat yourself but you cannot sell it to others. Similarly, I can buy a LIVE cow from a farmer here and then call in a custom slaughter to kill, cut and package the meat for me. That is the way you get your own grass fed beef rather than the USDA inspected beef and avoid the fed lots. And note, as far as I am aware, all of the reported mad cow incidents were found at USDA inspected meat facilities (where they force feed non-plant materials of high protien content). You would think the USDA would be more healthy, but that is not necessarily the case.
Besides the economics, there is also a diet composition that is generally different between the two USDA and non-USDA custom meat facilities. And it has a lot of influence over the nature and health of the suet and fats that the animals produce. And this is where I am sure most birders will find some very valuable information.

*** (Insert Heading Here): USDA Inspected Beef Slaughter Facilities and USDA Inspected Beef Suet
USDA inspected prime beef tastes good because of the type of feed and the length of time that feed is fed to the animals. And I have to admit it is most excellent in flavor. And both the flavor and the physical nature of the beef products are a direct result of the type of feeds that are control-fed to the animals.

I say control-fed because the whole purpose of the feed lots is to put certain foods into the animals to control the flavor and physical characteristics of the meat that is produced. One issue is the marbling of the meat. Another that is not typically noticed is the color of both the meat and the fat.
If you saw yellowish meat fat trimmings (from grass feed beef) on that stake in the store, you would not buy it. The general public associates white with good. You expect it to be as white as possible. But this is more of a psychological thing rather than a health issue. White is a great color when it comes to the product and sales of just about any product and it is true for meat too. The same is true with the red dyes used on the meat in most supermarkets to make it look more "appealing". I will explain the difference in color between grass fed and silage fed beef fat a bit more below.
USDA inspected beef typically go through a "feed lot". Feed Lots are facilities used to control the diets of the cattle. They are not on green pasture and the animals are concentrated in one small area where their diets and feed can be controlled. In essence, the cattle are force fed. They are fed various foods in those lots. Potatoes, various grains and corn silage. Corn silage is, in essence, corn that has fermented (or rotted) and more easily digested by the cattle. The silage can contain both grain as well as green plant materials all of which are generally high in vegetable protein content.
And then there is the issue of mad cow disease and force feeding of non-plant materials to cattle (blood products, bone meal, etc). But that is another issue I will not go into here. Let it suffice to say that most home farms do not feed dead animal products to their cattle. That is the realm of the commercial retail USDA inspected beef industry and I would suggest that is why mad cow disease is so closely associated with USDA inspected beef facilities and fed lots. Such items fed to cows certainly make for a more flavorful product (very high in protein) but I would suggest it comes at a cost.

There are two issues here in feeding these animals. One is that the lower activity of the animals crowded into those small corrals, together with feeds that have a higher caloric content, results in the animals putting on lots of fat and weight gain (aka, more money!). Grain is higher in calories than grass. And with the reduced activity, the cattle put on tremendous weight gains. The ultimate goal is to create more fat or "marbling" in the meat. The second issue is flavor. Grain and silage is added to the feed mix and such beef just plain tastes better. But there are other issues at play here too... and it involves the physical nature of the fats (color, melting point, etc).
Hold that thought for a minute...

Cattle have a different type of stomach than us humans... actually, they have more than one stomach! And their digestive systems operate differently from humans. In essence, cattle have a bunch of bacteria in their stomachs that digest the food for them. In essence, a symbiotic relationship - the cattle bring in food for the bacteria in their stomachs, the bacteria digest the food and create more bacteria, and then the cattle digests the bacteria. Most higher animal forms cannot digest plant materials directly, they can only deal with simple carbohydrates (sugars) and animal based proteins.  So when you eat beef, it is not the cows converting the grass into human food. The cows are just a host to the bacteria - and it is the bacteria (not the cow) that actually converts solar vegetable energy into human consumable foods. Now that is oversimplification but it gives you a general idea of how ruminant digestion works. The type of microflora (bacteria) in a cows stomach changes with their diet. Certain kinds of bacteria are better at digesting grain and other types of bacteria are better at digesting green leaves. Ultimately, this as well as some other factors, result in a difference in flavor, color and physicial characteristics of both the meat and the fats. Most folks who raise horses, cattle, etc know that a change in the diet of the livestock can have very dramatic effects both to the health of the animal and any final products that are produced.
OK, back to USDA inspected beef slaughter facitilites.

From what I gather from my sources, cattle are in the fed lots for 90-180 days on these controlled diets. Because the animals are all in one place and the feed is controlled, it is more economical to manage the animals. To give them antibiotics, you just put it in the feed. You can't do that with the grass in a pasture. Nor do you have to 'round up' the cattle. They are all right there in that one little area managed intensly for the last few months of their lives.

*** (Insert Heading Here): Custom Beef Slaughter Facilities (meat is not inspected and cannot be sold retail)

Home grown beef is usually just fed in the home pasture on grass and supplemented with whole grains for 30-60 days before being slaughtered. Generally, the cattle are left out on the pasture and the cattle are fed only those feeds they would prefer over the pasture grasses.  The animals get a choice - that is the biggest difference. And so, they take that grain not as a complete diet but as a supplement to the main normal diet of pasture grasses. So it is a supplemental thing rather than a control-fed 100% change in diet. About the only thing they will take is whole grains.   Silage is not something you typically see on small home farms. So the difference in the diet is significant as is the final product of meat and fats produced by the animals.

Here is what I have found in regards to small farm and home grown beef that is SUPPLEMENTED with grains on green pasture (ie, and generally no silage or non-plant feeds):

1) Fats and suet has a yellowish tint. The suet is not pure white. I suspect this is a result of the green chlorophyll in the grasses. Green is not one of the three prime colors (red, yellow and blue). The color green is a product of the two prime colors yellow and blue. So the yellow is there in the chlorophyll. I am assuming the 'blue' component is somehow removed by the normal diets of the animal. But again, this is all conjecture.
2) Fats are softer. In my experience, the kidney fat is not as 'crystaline' nor is it as hard as that of the (non organic, non grass fed) USDA inspected Fed Lot cattle. Again, this may have to do with a very high grain diet, or at least some other componenent in those fed lot diets.
3) Lower melting point. In my experience, the kidney fat of home grown pastured cattle has a much lower melting point.
4) Also, it has been my experience that the suet smells much different when rendered or cooked. The suet of home grown beef is not as 'sweet' smelling.

*** (Insert Heading Here): Going to the Birds
So, now, what does all of this have to say about feeding suet to wild birds?

Our perception of hard beef kidney fat as prime suet may be challenged. Certainly, with a higher melting point, the USDA sources will hold up better in warm weather. This implies that the home grown beef suet will go rancid quicker. And so, it is a trade off, convenience for what may be a more healthy product for the birds. There is another issue too. Some suet producers use a product called 'hard flake' that is added to the suet to make it harder and increase the melting point. From what I understand (and I have to be really careful here for political reasons), the 'flake' is a byproduct of other fat industries, considered 'fat' or 'suet'  and so it is not included on the wild bird suet labeling. But I would suggest that if you added that 'flake' into our edible products, you would have a LOT more hardening of the arteries and other heart issues. In my opinion, what is not good for me is not good for the birds. But that is a whole other issue that folks will have to research and I do not want to go off on that tangent here.

Harder fats suggest a unhealthy product in regards to heart and 'hardened' arteries. I am finding a significant difference here in the beef fats - their melting point. The USDA beef kidney suet is rock hard at 70F.  The non-USDA home grown beef kidney suet is very soft at 70F. The USDA melts at something over 110F. The non- USDA melts at about 90-100F. In essence, grass fed beef fats are midway in 'hardness' between vegetable oils and the very hard beef fats from USDA inspected plants and Fed Lot situations.

Now, all of this is from my personal experience and one of the reasons I am posting here. In particular, I am not suggesting that the bird suet products in our local store should be based solely on the softness of the fat. There are other reasons for soft fat including fats from other types of animals (sheep, goats, pigs, etc) as well as other types of fat on the animal. Some of the meat strap fat on USDA inspected beef products is softer than the kidney fat from the same animal. And so, you can't really tell quality from the final bird suet products themselves. But I am suggesting that the very hardest commercially available bird suet may not be the healthiest for the birds.
Now, don't take my word for it. It is a simple matter to go to a small rural community and find a small farmer that raises grass fed beef. They cannot sell you the meat directly (USDA forbids them from doing that), but they can sell you a live cow.  I believe you can also partner with other people so that you only have to pay for half or a quarter of the beef. But the point is, you have to buy it live and arrange with the farmer.  And then you can call in a custom slaughter facility to come onsite to the farm to kill, cut and wrap your meat. That is how it works though most folks in the city are unaware of how to go about getting around the USDA and finding what many consider the healthier beef products.

I am looking for confirmation from other birders who raise cattle in small farm situations. And preferably from those who have a long history of posting on this list - that is to distinguish any beef industry politics that might comment under the guise of a new birding enthusiast or member of the list. In any event, please send me your comments. I would welcome your thoughts, and not just small farmers. I would welcome everyone's comments here. It is all part of my research. Feel free to pass this on but please give me credit and retain all of the orginal content as presented here. I really do not like bits and pieces being taken out of context. Thanks.
-Ken The Wildlander ken"at"wildlanders.com Ellensburg, WA

From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Suet Science

Ken,         Thanks for the very thorough explanation of the types of suet. Most of what you said is news to me.My bottom-line question, having read your monograph, is this: when I go to my local supermarket and find a product in the cooler display of the meat department labeled simply "Beef Suet," what is it likely to be, and is it likely to be good or bad for wild birds? It is usually white or whitish, it is firm but not hard, it sometimes contains tiny amounts of muscle tissue (meat) and blood, and it usually breaks up easily into chunks. Until I read your Message, I had thought that all beef suet was basically the same. It's the same "suet" that I've been feeding to wild birds for more than 50 years. I feed it just as it comes from the store, unmelted, unrendered, uncooked, and unadulterated  with seeds, peanuts, Crisco, corn meal, or anything. Bruce Burdett, SW NH

From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:21 AM
Re: Suet Science

Dear Bruce. Ken and friends, All beef suet regardless of color (white or yellow) should come from the kidneys and yes, it does break apart in chucks (the white stuff mostly) as you pointed out Bruce. I like to go to my local butcher and ask to have him remove the suet from the kidneys right in front of me. That way there is no doubt in my mind where the suet came from. Ken's post about USDA beef and family grass feed beef is right on the money. We've farm feed beef and I've seen the fat color differences for myself and I agree with Ken's post. Yes, the USDA looks better and tastes better than family grass feed beef, but the family grass feed beef is better for you health wise in my opinion. Better still is the protein in wild game (i.e. venison, Elk, Bison, and Moose to name a few), which is also great for cancer patients that need a low fat, high protien diet, but that's a different subject. There is no need to add to Ken's post, but we need to remember that feeding fats is a temporary (winter months) program, so you are still doing right by the birds (just as long as you and the rest of us stay away from the evil CRISCO!) in my opinion. Cheers and as always... Happy Bluebird Trails To You, John Schuster

From: ken"at"wildlanders.com [mailto:ken"at"wildlanders.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:45 PM
Re: Suet Science

In my state of Washington, the grocery stores no longer receive full animal carcasses but boxed meats that are pre-cut. Safeway is the prime example here. They simply trim off the extra strap fat from the meat and call it suet. The Meriam Webster dictionary defines suet as the hard fat from around the kidneys. But all of that has been trimmed at the slaughter houses prior to shipping the boxes of meat to the grocery stores. It was traditionally used to make hard bricks of soap (as well as other cosmetics) and then adopted for use in feeding wild birds (a more contemporary use). The birds will eat both. The difference is one of convenience for us. The true suet is harder (denser) and, as a result, has a higher melting point. It lasts longer on warm days and does not drip as much. It may also be 'cleaner' fat and not go rancid as quickly. But, I believe cleaner fat means less nutrition. Those impurities in the fat are likely vitamins, minerals and even some proteins. It goes against the common wisedom that true suet is higher in protein. But I have not seen any analysis on the Internet to support that. My previous post was to provide a new look at the nutrition of grass fed beef suet for birds. It is softer and not as convenient for the human but it is likely a much healthier product for the birds. The products I make are strictly kidney suet but they are also soft because of the grass diet. I started manufacturing wild bird suet nuggets and 'crumbles' this fall and it was a real hard choice to go with small farm pasture/grass fed beef because I knew folks may not buy it because of the inconvenience and the tradition of hard suet. But, grass/pasture fed beef suet is a rare commodity in the bird suet products. Most suet comes from traditionally raised and grown USDA inspected cattle products. Rather than pursuing the financial side of staying with tradition, I have gone to the birds... hehehe -Ken

From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:32 AM
Re: Sunny Bluebird morning :(

...My EABL are eating Bluebird Banquet. If you do feed this to them, beware that other birds and critters absolutely love this stuff too. Therefore, if you were just feeding mealies with no squirrel baffle on your feeder, put one on before you put the banquet out. Squirrels love the stuff and will chew through any feeder they can access to get to it. I'd also recommend starting the Bluebird Banquet before your mealies run out. I recommend that people feeding this for the first time put it in the feeder with a few mealies sprinkled on top. I think it helps them get accustomed to the new food. And when the European Starlings (EUST) discover the food, look out! This usually occurs later in the winter when the large stands of fruit are gone. With your HOSP success, I know you will know what to do. Paula Z Powell (Central) Ohio

From: Cher [mailto:bluebirdnut"at"a-znet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:59 AM
Re: Sunny Bluebird morning :(

Yes, definitely mix the banquet with the mealies. Mine wouldn't touch the stuff until last fall, when it started to get cold, and I mixed the mealies in good with my crumbled banquet-type stuff. Once they got the taste of it as it clung to the mealies, they decided it wasn't half bad, and now they eat it all year long (although during the summer, they fish out the mealies first, and the finches help them out with the banquet). Cher

From: Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana [mailto:yumyumkatts"at"voyager.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 5:21 PM
Subject: Suet

I just got my Wild Birds Unlimited on-line magazine. This is what they say about suet: "Suet is a great winter food. A pure fat substance, suet provides high energy when insects are more difficult to find." Dottie, Hickory Hollow

From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco "at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Suet Blindness?

...Now that is a new one that I've never heard before.

No suet will not blind birds, unless you are talking about a form of Snow Blindness, by having the birds look at a mountain of white suet all day long.

An exclusive diet of suet may have some consequences to the their systems (as it would ours), but wild birds do burn up fats rapidly during the winter months, to fast for them to develop physical challenges.

You can use the suet alone (like Bruce) or better still use suet as a binding agent for other goodies (i.e. chopped dried fruits, raisins, peanuts or nature style peanut butter) and only use the suet mixture as a food substitute when the weather is cold or when nature foods are not plentiful.

...John Schuster

From: Bill Whittaker [mailto:bwhittaker"at"natureskeepers.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 9:17 AM
Subject: Suet Blindness?

As John Schuster correctly points out, birds will not go blind from eating suet regardless of how much they eat. It is amazing to us at Four Nature's Keepers how much myth and misinformation there is regarding wild bird foods, particularly suet. The real issue with suet or any lipid for that matter is its fatty acid profile. Saturated fats are more difficult for birds to digest than unsaturated fats. Suet is very highly saturated and, therefore, requires more energy to digest. It is for this reason that we do not use any suet at all and recommend the use of vegetable shortening instead. Years of field tests confirm that birds, after a familiarization period, prefer vegetable shortening. We believe they prefer it because of the increased net energy yield they experience from the easier to digest unsaturated fats. We have 5 acres that is 1/2 abandoned pasture. For the past 3 years we have maintained 3-4 bluebird boxes all year round. We also feed a complete diet, not supplement, all year round. We have had a pair of bluebirds nesting all 3 years producing 4 clutches the first year, 5 clutches the second year, and 4 clutches this yr. with a total of 45 fledglings. Bill Whittaker Four Nature's Keepers Delaware, OH

Bill, we had several days of discussion not too long ago about the "shortening" issue. It is the trans fatty issue that many were concerned about. All research shows that chickens are not fed "trans fatty" foods. In fact, on one site I read about poultry, they were hoping the "trans fatty"
process would be outlawed period, for anything that eats it.

Now you are telling us shortening is o.k. I did find out that Crisco has one that does not have the "trans fatty" problem.

However, from what I read, shortening has a longer shelf life than any other kinds of fats (including all kinds of baked goods) and that is the reason it is preferred in anything made to sell and sit on a shelf.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA

Evelyn et al,

Trans fatty acids are of concern in organisms that live long enough for them to be a problem. That is not the case in wild birds. The average lifespan of songbirds in the wild is too short for trans fatty or saturated fats to be any factor other than digestibility. The relevant factor is digestibility.
Sorry, it never occurred to me that I was recommending "Crisco." I am not.
We recommend soybean shortening with as low a melting temperature (less
saturation) as you can use to make an acceptable food. It should not contain any additives. Vegetable shortening does have a longer shelf-life than suet because it contains a higher percentage of antioxidants, but that is not the primary reason for choosing it. The fact remains that it is better for the birds.

I would be interested in the poultry site you mention that hopes trans fatty acids would be outlawed. Poultry also have a short life of only several years. It is difficult to see how trans fatty acids could be a problem.
Could you send me the site address?

When our products were first released to the market, we were the only one using vegetable shortening. In the past year or two several suet processors have started to include a small percentage of vegetable shortening in their suet. I suspect it is to extend shelf-life.

It is important to keep in mind that just because birds eat a particular food, seed, or fat that does not necessarily mean it is good for them. As any animal care professional will tell you, "it just ain't so." If birds are offered a choice of seeds including oiler sunflower seeds most song birds will invariably eat all the oilers first. The fact is that oilers are over 50% fat and, if they comprise a significant percentage of a birds diet, the bird will suffer from nutritional deficiencies that can lead to more serious problems. The same applies to suet vs. vegetable shortening. Of course birds will eat either one, but the question is which is better for them. Shouldn't we be feeding the best (in avian terms) foods we can?

As for the issue of feeding birds at all, the recent Audubon report on species status over the past 10 years shows serious population declines across a wide spectrum of species. The declines are primarily due to habitat degradation and declining food resources. The dedication of bluebirders to compensating for loss of nesting sites is truly commendable. Why not take the support to another level and offer a nutritionally complete food to expand their feeding opportunities. If in addition to increasing nesting sites you expand the available food supply, perhaps more birds will survive to successfully reproduce and in the long term we can stabilize or even increase populations.

Bill

Evelyn, and others,
At risk of becoming tiresome on this subject, I will say again that I have never used "suet" in any other form than raw, natural suet straight from the meat-cutting room in our supermarket. The cutters cut it right off the beef carcasses (sp?) and wrap it up in paper 1-lb ± packages for sale in the cooler bins, right beside the soup/dog bones.

I have never used Crisco, cooking oil, lard, grease, shortening, or any form of "cakes", either homemade or factory-made. The birds take it routinely and avidly and peck it right down to nothing in the suet-cage.

Bruce Burdett, SW NH

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: Crisco, etc.

Well, Bruce if you remember, this subject never really had a conclusion with any definite answers. This post from Bill opens up a different view and he states they have been using shortening.

I cannot understand if there is any new information to add to a subject, why people gripe if it goes on longer than they think it should.

If any should find it tiresome, they can use the delete key. I use it myself sometimes.

Thanks,

Evelyn

I have copied below from Cher's site where she received this reply from Dr.
Kirk Klasing when we were having this discussion. In the last paragraph, he mentions chickens.

I went to site after site and all on poultry did not recommend it at all for them. I think I have deleted all that stuff. I might can find it again.

"When Bluebird Nut contacted Dr. Kirk Klasing, Professor of Avian Nutrition at the Dept. of Animal Science at UC Davis, he stated the following:

"'Suet' by definition is raw fat from cattle or sheep. I would avoid it in the raw form. When suet is melted and clarified, it is called tallow. Tallow is better because it is less likely to go rancid over time. However, pure tallow is not easily digested by birds because it is high in saturated fats.
Very high amounts of fatty acids are difficult to emulsify by the bile, lowering its digestibility. Adding a source of unsaturated fats, such as vegetable oil or lard, improves digestibility (80 % tallow, 20% vegetable oil or lard is a good combination - you can adjust the proportions to give the melting point desired). Peanut butter also works to increase digestibility of tallow because it is high in unsaturated fats. I do not know of evidence for a laxative effect of vegetable oil.

Like tallow, vegetable shortening is solid at room temperatures. However, the hydrogenation used to make shortening results in lots of trans fatty acids. Though we don't know for sure, it is likely that the trans fatty acids are less healthy than "natural" cis fatty acids (unhydrogenated oils).
In chickens, high levels of trans fatty acids deplete antioxidants in the tissues. It would be best to avoid high levels of vegetable shortening."

Evelyn

I did save this link. You have to scroll down about half way of the page and at #44 it starts about the trans-fats and there is quite a bit of discussion on it. This also includes any oils that are hydrogenated. That is why peanut butter without that process is recommended on here to include in banquet mixes.

Evelyn

http://www.lionsgrip.com/posts.html

From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:44 PM
Re: Suet Blindness?

Bill, please keep us posted on your research, especially after the birds are banded. One thing that would be interesting is to see if the "well nourished" bluebirds live as long as "wild" bluebirds. I have talked with a few people that provided supplement feedings who felt that the birds "burned" themselves out earlier than the control birds. Rather like the mouse experiments showing that each species has a certain number of calories to be used in a lifetime. Are you seeing the fledgings from the previous year return to your area? Boy, I can think of so many questions! Good luck with your work. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

From: Bill Whittaker [mailto:bwhittaker"at"natureskeepers.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:03 AM
Re: Suet Blindness?

Evelyn, Thanks for the info. I am familiar with Dr. Klasing. In fact our decision to use vegetable shortening was based on his input. We would not recommend the use of any high fat diet for captive birds. They would not have the ability to burn it off and would quickly become obese. Furthermore, the ideal fat for avian diets is vegetable oil since it is not saturated, however, a liquid oil is not easy to incorporate into an acceptable diet. We are working on it though. We do use a vegetable shortening with a low melting temperature to minimize the level of saturation. We recognize that this is a compromise, but still a major improvement over suet. Our diets contain no more than 30% fat which also is a major improvement over suet products and "oilers" that are both more than 50% fat. Fat performs 2 functions in an avian diet; energy source and attractant like sugar to humans. At 30% fat, birds are getting a more than adequate level of fat and are attracted to the food. If you decrease the fat to 25% the birds are less inclined to eat it. It is all about compromises in the best interests of the birds. You mention the recommendation of peanut butter for use in BB banquet. This is only one of a variety of "vegetable" oils that would be equally satisfactory from a nutritional perspective, e.g. soybean oil, sunflower oil, etc. I did read the piece you mentioned about trans fatty acids and poultry. I understand the authors aversion for any trans fatty acids in the diet of poultry, however it seems rather extreme to me. If the poultry are maintained as pets or companion animals, then I agree, since their activity level will be too restricted for a high fat diet and their lifespan may be long enough for the deleterious effects of trans fatty acids to impact their health. I think it is rather extreme for those raised for human consumption or egg factories, since their lifespan is relatively short. Bill

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:20 AM
RE: Suet Blindness?

Well, we have some on the List that go to the butcher and get the raw suet and feed it. We have others that make it into tallow and use other ingredients with it and make banquets. We have those of us that don't want to use any hydrogenated product. I personally feel we need to keep it as close to what they get in the wild. Evelyn

... I found a shortening called "Smart Balance", put out by the people that put out the margarine for use for those with high cholesterol. I have used it ever since it came out. So, why wouldn't the "no trans fatty" shortenings work fine in the banquet mixes for the birds?

Evelyn

Dear Evelyn and friends,

Substitute the word Crisco with Smart Balance, and now you have...

The Smart Balance Test.

I have no idea what type of container Smart Balance comes in because I won't eat that stuff, so why would I feed it to birds? By filling an empty tuna or cat food can to the top you can proceed with the Smart Balance Test.

Do everything the same that you would do on the Crisco test, and see if any lower critters (i.e. rats, mice, ants, or other insects) will touch the Smart Balance in the tuna or cat food can. Anyone who has read my posts on the Crisco Test knows that you can do this test with just about anything, so I can assume that the Smart Balance Test will end up with the same results as the Crisco Test.

Nothing will touch the stuff.

However, if your local critters do go after the the Smart Balance (I doubt this will happen) then by all means use the Smart Balance as a binding agent.

In closing, I've found that over the years nothing in nature will touch anything that is unnatural (i.e. Crisco, margarine and I can assume Smart Balance too), unless you mix the unnatural with the natural (i.e. peanuts, raisins, cracked corn, dry fruit, etc.) It may seem like birds are eating the manmade (unnatural) binding agents, but in fact they are going after the natural items found in the manmade binding agents and are only picking up the manmade binding agents along with the natural items.

Stick to what Mother Nature has provided (i.e. suet, lard and or natural chunky style peanut butter) for binding agents, as they are much better for the birds than the aforementioned manmade binding agents.

...John Schuster

...John, the hundreds of birds that come to my yard won't touch the Smart Balance shortening, but how does that prove that it is bad for them? Maybe they don't like it plain. I did a search on it and all the oils in it are not bad. I really thought it was the trans fatty issue we were concerned about. ...

The reason it is named Smart Balance is the blend of certain oils that have "good" things for you to control your cholesterol. I would not want to feed my birds anything that is bad for me or anyone.

Evelyn

From: Fultons [mailto:thefultons"at"everestkc.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject:

Happy New Year, all!! I'm in Kansas City and we were hit with about 1" of ice and sleet.  Have not seen the Bluebirds in about a week, but this morning I went out to put seed out for the other birds and three different times, two male BB came by and were eating out of the feeder!!!  I had some of these suet nuggets I put out hoping they might take those a little better, but those stupid starlings snatched them all up before the BB even had a chance to try one!!  It was nice to get a glimpse of them today and just wanted to share.  I don't get cardinals around here and saw one of them today and 3 chipping sparrows.  When the weather is bad it sure does bring out all kinds of birds. ... Cristy Fulton Lenexa, Kansas

Starlings love peanut butter. A suet cage within a cage will deter them. (Red and flying squirrels can still get into the 1.5" wire openings.) Duncraft makes a pricey one that has a roof and a bottom, but this means the bigger woodpeckers like a redbellied can feed from it, and it's also harder to feed crumbles which are preferred by bluebirds. I'm not sure how far starlings can reach in through a 1.5" opening with their heads and long beaks to get at suet (or eggs/nestlings)... wonder if anyone has tested this.

Starlings don't like to feed hanging from the bottom of a suet feeder (there are suet cages stuck inside a roof so that is the only option) but I can attest to the fact that they CAN learn to do it.

Bet from CT
suet recipes at http://www.sialis.org/suet.htm

Bet,

Starlings can stick their heads through 1-1/2" hole or 1-1/2" bar spacing on bluebird feeders quite a distance - I would say about 3 inches or so. They stick their heads in up to their shoulders and stretch their necks out and can access the food in the feeders IF they can get a foothold.

The problem I see with many bluebird feeders for winter feeding is twofold.
First, they are often constructed so entry bars or hole has a small width of wood beneath the bars to hold everything together. This small piece of wood offers a perfect perch for starlings to get a foothold and stick their heads in far enough to get the food.

Secondly, most feeders are too narrow IMO to optimally place food in center so no starlings can get to it if they do thrust their heads in there.

For a summer mealworm feeder, I like the Jenna Bird jailhouse design just fine. Starlings are not a problem in the summer months for me and this feeder nicely accomodates the single pair of bluebirds I have then. My ideal winter feeder design (if I ever get boatloads of time and suddenly become handy), would be to make a jailhouse feeder similar to Jenna Bird design with following changes. I would make the feeder at least twice or three times as long as the Jenna Bird. This is because I can get EABL shoulder to shoulder with current design and would like to accomodate as many at a time as possible - fun to watch. I would find a way to mount the bars to that they are more flush with the feeder bottom to disallow starlings getting a foothold. Finally, I would increase the width of the feeder a little and install a shallow (maybe 1") feeding trough that would be installed in the center of the feeder and run its length from entry hole to entry hole. The food could be placed in this trough so it wouldn't spill over the sides too close to the bars. I would retain the two holed entry/exits at each end too. Often I have an EABL who enters my jailhouse feeder that gets confused and forgets they came in through the bars. They quickly figure out how to go out the holes though.

Starlings DO love peanut butter as you mention, and it makes an excellent bait in a ground trap for them. Just smear it on the trip mechanism and it works great.

Paula Z
Powell (Central) Ohio

I was out in the yard today about 20 feet from the feeder watching the EABL
after I filled up the feeder with Bluebird Banquet. I counted 12 in the
yard. They line up on the gutter and wait their turn at the feeder. They tolerate me at this distance if I am still, but the EUST and HOSP wouldn't dare show their little beaks when I am out there.

I have two EABL feeders in the yard. One is a small plexi-glass with two entry holes. The other is a Jenna Bird jailhouse feeder with two entry holes. Today, I removed the 1"X 1" strips of wood at base of jailhouse feeder to try to stop EUST from getting an easy foothold. The EABL don't seem to mind - just flutter their wings a little to balance to eat at side of feeder now. They can still enter and sit inside if they wish. Most of them prefer to access the feeder from the edges with the jailhouse rungs though.

In the spring/summer, I will replace the 1" x 1" strips of wood to keep mealworms in, but will try this set-up for now. The suet mix doesn't crawl out like the mealworms do. The woodpeckers, flickers and nuthatches seem to prefer the feeder without the wood base also.

Paula Z
Powell (Central) Ohio

I'm sorry to have all of you repeat your recent advice on Winter Feeding. I was just watching the weatherman and he is calling for some of the coldest temps this area (Kansas City area) has seen in the last 7 years. The projected forecast is for this Friday; 10 degrees and Sat.; 6!!! I have only had bluebirds for the last two spring/summers and have never experienced winter feeding. But this last weekend I had at least 3 coming to my platform feeder that I put out safflower, blackoil, sunflower chips.
And they were eating something from it, not sure which seed they were preferring, though. I had bought some "suet nuggets" at the beginning of the year and put some of those out also, but I'm thinking that's NOT what they were eating. I also cut up some raisins, but it was sooo.. cold out that they were probably rock hard to even tempt them or else the EUST would eat them all.

I have asked for the Bluebird Banquet recipe before but have been hesitant to prepare it because I don't usually have the EABL around. I was just wondering what all of you "winter feeding" people would recommend I do for this (hopefully) short cold snap. I have a bluebird mealworm feeder. I'm not sure the brand of it. It looks like a regular rectangular wooden feeder with a roof on it, but it has green fence like stuff on each side, approx.
1/1/2" - 2" square openings in it, to allow only smaller birds in and then it has a cup in the center of it. The EABL eat from it readily in the spring/summer but have paid it no attention this winter. Even if they don't like what is in it, they aren't even going near it to check it out. So my question is, if I feed them and whatever you recommend I feed them, where should I put it so that they will find it?

I know they will find whatever I put out for them in the platform feeder, but I'm afraid the EUST will eat it all before the EABL have a chance!! But then if I put it in the mealworm feeder, they won't even go in it to find it!!

What should I do? I have 3 days to get a plan and put it in action. I really want to help them out, but I'm afraid whatever I do they won't find it, like it or something else will take it all.

I have a Wild Bird Center and a Wild Birds Unlimited fairly close to me that I could buy something from them, but I don't think that I have time to order something that needs to be shipped.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sorry I did not pay close enough attention to other prior emails on this topic.

I would recommend mixing up a batch of Bluebird Banquet. Recipe is at:
http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/ljrecipe.htm

Even if you don't have EABL come regularly to your feeder, this stuff is a huge hit with carolina wrens, tufted titmice, white breasted nuthatches, flickers, downy woodpeckers, red bellied woodpeckers, cardinals, house finches and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Something will eat it if you put it out. Wild Birds Unlimited sells "Simply Suet". A tub of this should allow you to mix up a couple batches - just melt in microwave. You already have the sunflower chips and this may have been what the EABL were eating.

Get corn meal (not corn meal mix which has baking powder in it), zante currants (these are better size than raisins), chunky peanut butter (I leave out peanut chips in recipe because it is already in the peanut butter) and whole wheat flour from grocery. If you have kids, this is great fun for them to mix up in a big bowl. My son loves to mix up the bluebird food every week. You may have to add a little extra melted suet to get mostly pea sized chunks.

If your feeder has a flat roof, I would put a little on top of roof and some inside the feeder. I bet they will find it. Spread it on platform too. If you get them to use the EABL feeder, this will be preferred because you will lose less to EUST. A baffle is a good idea because the squirrels LOVE it and will eat you out of house and home or chew up your feeder trying to get it if you don't use a baffle.

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:35 AM
RE: Winter Feeding

Paula, I find if I stew the raisins and chopped them just a little they are much softer and stay that way. Everything is cold out there on the feeder, but I have not seen them turn them down. They have been really going through them down here. The chunky peanut butter balls are gone and I will have to put out more today. Evelyn

Thanks for your help. Unfortunately I live in a fairly new (built up) area.
I do not get any of those birds that you mentioned. I just recently saw a male cardinal on Saturday. I do get a load of house finch, chipping sparrow, juncos, doves, HOSP, EUST and gold finch. My roof is a "peaked"
type roof, too!! I'm just striking out! But I will still go ahead and prepare the bluebird Banquet. And get it out there and keep filling it up every hour if I have to, to get those little guys some energy to get them thru the cold snap.

Thanks again. I will keep you posted on my success (or not). Who knows, maybe the banquet will bring in some of those other birds that you mentioned. Will the woodpeckers eat out of the platform feeder or do they just come to hanging type feeders? I also have a real cheap peanut feeder that has the wire caging on it, could I put some of the Bluebird Banquet in that also? Or will it just fall out since it's such a smaller size? Let me know what you think when you get a chance.

Have a great day.

Cristy

I put about two cups of chunky peanut butter in a bowl and mix quick cooking (uncooked) oats with it until it is stiff. I divide it and make two balls and put it on the feeders beside the chopped up raisins. You could put other things in it such as chopped fruits, but I find they like to come get the raisins and eat them. They pig out on them.

Good luck,
Evelyn

From: Fultons [mailto:thefultons"at"everestkc.net]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 5:11 PM
Subject: finally...

Finally... Preparing the Bluebird Banquet paid off!!!  I just had 8 bluebirds come to the feeder (of course, with the EUST, too)!!!  I prepared the Banquet last week and every day put it out only to be gobbled up by the EUST.  Not today tho!!!  It was awesome.  I saw about 10 of them sitting on a roof out my back yard.  I went to put more out, hoping they would see me and come back.  But then they all took off at once.  When I looked around, here came a Cooper's Hawk that landed on my fence.!!  Oh well, at least they escaped his danger.  Hopefully they will return when the coast is clear!!! .... Cristy Fulton Lenexa, Kansas

From: Fultons [mailto:thefultons"at"everestkc.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Bluebird Banquet

Could someone tell me how long Bluebird Banquet will last in the fridge?  Not that I'm going to have any leftover, just wanted to make sure. For the last 3 days I have had at least 10 bluebirds come to the platform feeder all day long!!  I have not got a thing done!!!  I just stand at the window watching them (and scaring the EUST away)!  It's funny too...I can raise the blinds really quick or pound on the window, or just walk by and the EUST fly away and the EABL just look up and then continue to eat! Thanks, Cristy Fulton Lenexa, Kansas

I freeze all my suet mixes. Makes the blocks easier to handle too. I separate blocks with waxed paper.

I forgot a few in my freezer for a year, and they still got gobbled up ....
I'm GUESSING something like 3 months wouldn't be a problem....

Bet from CT

Hi Christy,
Here is the URL of a place that gives you recipes and instructions for making your own suet blocks.
Click on Bluebirds and Suet Recipes in their index. There's tons of other great information also so bookmark it.
http://www.gardengrapevine.com/SiteIndex.html
I am raising my own mealworms for the first time. It's an amazing process. I encourage you all to try it.
Snowbird, PA

I hadn't seen that site Beverly, thanks for the link.

Since bluebirds generally don't eat birdseed (except occasionally sunflower
chips) people don't usually include it in bluebird suet mixes. The bluebird suet recipe at the Garden Grapevine website uses creamy peanut butter - most folks used chunky since bluebirds may eat peanut chips.

Also, reportedly most bluebirds favor crumbly mix (pea or bean size) as opposed to suet blocks. However, I've seen photos of bluebirds chowing down on suet stuffed in logs.

The most popular bluebird suet mixes are probably bluebird banquet and Malinda Matsuko's recipes - reprinted at http://www.sialis.org/suet.htm along with a number of others. I'm not expert on bluebirds eating suet as I STILL haven't convinced mine to eat it - but have compiled info from others who have had better luck.

Bet from CT

I freeze mine too. I make my own suet cakes, 40 or 50 at a time depending on how much suet I get, I put 5 cakes in a bag to store them in the freezer. If you happen to have an older freezer that is not self defrosting, anyone remember how to do it, the cake will last much longer. I experimented and had one in the freezer, manual defrost, for a little over a year and no problems with it.

Lynn in Bernville PA

From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 12:47 AM
Subject: RE: Bluebird Banquet

Bet,

Although I have not seen this until this year, the EABL are now sitting in my sunflower oiler feeder and eating the sunflower seeds. I am guessing that they are picking up the hulled sunflowers that the other birds may have left behind? There were three EABL in there today. They, of course, love the Bluebird Banquet best, but are apparently branching out and sampling other things in my yard. I love watching them drink at the bird bath too.

They seem very thirsty, tossing their heads back and getting quite big swallows down.

Paula Z. Powell (Central) Ohio

Sounds like your Bluebirds became accustomed to sunflower chips in the bluebird banquet and found a secondary source for them.

Dottie Roseboom
Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

From: Larry A Broadbent [mailto:rockets"at"mnsi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:30 PM
Subject: Bluebird Banquet

Dear List members,
Anyone in the Northern States or in Ontario still feeding Bluebird Banquet to your Bluebirds?

We have some freezing cold weather here in southern Ontario, and the Robins are toughing it out.
I'm going to put some apple and fruit pieces, and some mealworms out for the Robins tomorrow.

Shalom,
Larry A Broadbent
Chatham, ON
Canada

From: caroljea [mailto:caroljea"at"athenet.net]
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 6:47 AM
Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1155

I have made some "Bluebird Banquet" and hung it on a tree in a feeder. But no bluebirds have come to it, even though I have at least one nesting pair on my property. How can I attract the bluebirds to the
suet?

Caroljea,

It might be a little late in the season to "attract" them to the banquet mix. They are probably looking more for insects at this point. Mine are still eating the "bluebird banquet" but I think that's because they have been eating it all winter and know where it is available if they need it.

Bill
SW Ohio

From: Kenneth Robinson [mailto:krtrdrjr"at"yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 5:52 PM
Subject: bluebird banquet

what is bluebird banquet
thank you,
Kenneth

From: Bill Stump [mailto:bstump"at"bright.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Egg #2 EABL

Nina,

I have fed live mealies mixed into a small amount of Bluebird Banquet and they would eat the banquet to get to the mealies. Then, if I ran out of mealies, they would just eat the banquet. You might want to try to put a small container of mealies on top of your feeder at first, so they can see the "wiggling" mealies. That might attract their attention. Might be worth a try, especially during this cold snap.

Bill
SW Ohio

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: bluebird banquet

Hi Kenneth - You probably already got an answer, but it’s a suet mixture designed especially for bluebirds. It was developed by Linda Janilla Peterson under a research grant from the MN Bluebird Recovery Program (http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/ljrecipe.htm) It is made in crumbly pea-size pieces. Some folks have had great success feeding it to bluebirds. The bluebirds here are mealworm-only connoisseurs so far, but other birds (downy and red-bellied woodpeckers, titmice, nuthatch and chickadees, and starlings unfortunately) love it.

Recipe at http://www.sialis.org/suet.htm#bb, along with info about feeding suet and other recipes at http://www.sialis.org/suet.htm

Bet from CT

From: Chris&Crystal Hill [mailto:crystaljhill"at"msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: OT-Suet

This morning (after worrying about the blues) I observed a Brown Thrasher and a little while later a Gray Catbird eating from the suet feeder.

I was not aware they ate suet. Usually I have Downey, Carolina Wren, Chickadees.

Any info?

Crystal~Georgia

From: Tina Wertz [mailto:tinawertz"at"bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: OT-Suet

Crystal,
Hey. I have the Brown Thrasher, Catbird, Mockingbird and Robin that eat the Naturally Nuts suet I buy from WildBirds Unlimited. Once they discover it they'll keep coming to it. I have put mine on a platform feeder to make it easier for them to get to, and they love it. Funny thing is the Thrasher and the Catbird are not supposed to be feeder birds, yet I get them to come to my feeders every day. I'll see if I can't snap some pictures of them. Birds are amazing. I was treated to an amazing sight yesterday evening. I had 5 male Grosbeaks and 9 male Indigo Bunting with 2 female Indigo Buntings at my feeders at one time. Have a great day.

Tina
Woodstock, Ga.

From: Bill Stump [mailto:bstump"at"bright.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Bird Behavior & Feeding ?'s

Chris&Crystal Hill wrote: The Grackles are eating me out of house and home when it comes to suet? any suggestions?
Also the Grackles seem to be dipping their food in our bird bath and then eating it, my bird bath has
to be scrubbed daily, due to this, they dip the suet in the water, anyone heard or observed this?
Crystal,

You might try one of the "starling-proof" suet feeders. That's what I use and I no longer have any starling or blackbird problems with suet. The feeder is only accessible from the bottom. It's great for woodpeckers, nuthatches and chickadees because they can feed upside down. Sparrows, starlings and blackbirds won't. Sometimes they try but it usually doesn't last long.

Bill
SW Ohio

From: Sheila Rogers [mailto:sheilarogers"at"charter.net]
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: Bird Behavior & Feeding ?'s

Bill
I disagree with you on the " UPSIDE Down" feeder:) Starlings have figured out" how to Fly Up-side down":( Sure they don't stay long, but " Visit More":(

Woodies/Nuthatches/Titmouse...love it...so do blue jays:)

Sheila/ Redding, Ca

Does anyone know if young EABL's that fledged about 3-4 days ago can digest Bluebird banquet (mine is home made, high in suet, cornmeal, peanut butter and peanuts). It has been very cold in the North East and I am getting very low on mealworms. I probably won't get a new batch until next thursday and the next few days will be in the 40's in New England. I have seen the parents EABL's take bluebird banquet to their fledglings. Let me know.
thanks

Anne-Marie Palermino
Lincoln, RI

I do know that the parents fed raisins to the newly fledged babies a couple
of weeks ago in the huge pine tree beside my house as I saw them do it. The
second day, the fledglings lined up on my wooden fence and the parents fed
them. I limit the raisins as I think they need the insects. However, they
love them.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA

Anne-Marie,
I don't mess with mealworms because I have so many other birds
that eat them before the bluebirds could get to them. I strictly feed
my bluebirds the banquet, and they would feed it to their babies while
in the nest and after fledging. Since Saturday, I have a second pair of
bluebirds who have found it and are taking the banquet to feed their
young. There should be no problem with the fledglings being able to
digest the banquet. Mine haven't had a problem with it at all.

Tina Wertz
Woodstock, Ga.

Yes, it is okay for them.

Maynard Sumner
Flint, MI

From: Bill Stump [mailto:bstump"at"bright.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bird Behavior & Feeding ?'s

Bet,

Try tying a piece of monofiliment line about six inches long with a small weight on it from the center of the underside of the feeder. The starlings get annoyed with the string and weight because they can't "hover" but the woodpeckers, chickadees, nuthatches and titmice don't seem to have a problem with it. Kinda like a "sparrow-spooker" for suet feeders. Works for me!

Bill
SW Ohio

As I sat and drank my morning cup of coffee, my male bluebird landed at the platform feeder and began eating the bluebird banquet I had put out earlier. I watched for the 2 fledglings to show up, but to my surprise they just kept coming for a total of 8 fledglings. Each one trying to get a bite of banquet. So apparently this pair successfully fledged 6 more young. I sure hope that somehow someway they will all survive.

Tina Wertz
Woodstock, Ga.

Is "bluebird banquet" something you make or is it a commercial product
one can purchase online??

Mother blue is on her 9th day of brooding her 4 eggs in our Troyer slot
box!!

Best regards,
Glenn

From: Fultons [mailto:thefultons"at"everestkc.net]
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 3:59 PM
Subject: bluebird banquet

Quick question...I think I know the answer, but want to ask...just in case.

I made some of the Bluebird Banquet in April. It has been in the fridge this whole time. Do you think it is still good? Or should I throw it out? I smelled it and there wasn't any foul oder. It actually smelled as good as the day I made it. I figure I should pitch it, but wanted to make sure, since it's been refridged this whole time, if it might still be good. I'm out of mealworms and am waiting to order until this third brood gets closer to hatching. And would like to put this out, if they would eat it.

Thanks
Cristy
Lenexa, KS

...

I will pipe in for fun though because one of my favorite times of bluebird season is almost here. It is the time of year when all the insects go dormant in central Ohio and the EABL flock to the feeders. There were 4 EABL in my back yard this morning. I have Bluebird Banquet set out in 4 different feeders. I will be "testing" all of them this winter: standard plexiglass, Evergreen with hole modifications on sides, jailhouse style, and Cher's new wire mesh feeder. Let the fun begin!

Paula Z
Powell (Central) Ohio

Great Paula! I will be testing Cher's new wire mesh feeder starting this weekend. I hesitate to bother people about it as I know it has been listed many times: about the recipe for bluebird banquet? Thanks,

Lana Hunt
Morehead, KY

I envy that you have bluebirds this time of year. We are consistently having the unusual temp in the 80's so there are still lots of bugs (yuck). It is surprising to me that there are not more bluebirds around. If there are bluebirds around I am at work and don't see them! But I usually see them in February and am getting everything set up for that. I already have my mealworm feeder from Cher also set up but I mounted mine on a pole due to the winds we have here. I wonder if the bluebirds will have any problems gaining entry into the feeder since the top is slick? Any thoughts on this?

Elizabeth
south of Dallas TX area

Lana, I've listed several mix recipes on my site here, including the one usually referred to as "Bluebird Banquet": http://www.bluebirdnut.com/links.htm#Mealworms

Cher

Elizabeth,

Sorry I didn't answer this before . . . I don't think the Blues will have a problem with the metal top on the feeder. Once they get used to it, they'll probably just fly right up to the sides and go in. If you want to give them a perch, try affixing a small tree branch to the lid of the feeder. I had a branch through the top of my X-1 feeder year before last, and they loved that.

I also liked your idea of using a small votive candle holder as a feeding cup. It's deep, and would hold plenty of worms & Bluebird Banquet to feed a flock.

Cher

... I have a Pileated Woodpecker that is regularly coming to my suet feeder. He can really go through the suet! ...

Mary Roen, River Falls, WI

From: Sherry [mailto:basketcasesherry"at"verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:12 AM
Subject: BlueBird Banquet

Hello Blue Friends,

Well, we are having near-record cold in northeastern Maryland so far this winter. We had snow/ice fall last Friday, and it is STILL on the pavements and sidewalks that weren't shoveled immediately. They are solid ice and impossible to clear now. ...

Anyway, my 'family' of EABL comes every day, numerous times now, for their meal worms. Fortunately I work from home, and can accommodate them w/the worms. They appear to be roosting in two of my boxes. I have read a recipe for Blue Bird Banquet that was said to have been accepted by the blues readily, but can not find the recipe anywhere. Also, I have very little time to make the concoction, with working full time and running a 14 year old all over the place. Does anyone know of anywhere that the banquet could be purchased already made?? And if not, how do I get 'rendered suet'?? I seem to remember that being a main ingredient. I asked my butcher at the grocery store and he looked at me like I was nuts. (doesn't bother me, you should see how my neighbors look at me when I am calling my bluebirds to come eat!) If no one makes it for sale, could someone please send me the ingredient list?? I appreciate it very much. Stay warm!

Blessings,
Sherry Kanaras
Cecil County/Perryville, Maryland

From: Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana [mailto:yumyumkatts"at"voyager.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:38 PM
Subject: O/T Pileateds

A friend of mine was telling me today that she had a pileated cling to her suet feeder upside down for over an hour. She watched him the whole time scared he was dead as he was so still. Not moving a feather.

But he was only sunning himself and finally flew away.

Dottie, Hickory Hollow
Brown County, Indiana

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:09 AM
To: Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: another idea to deter starling feeders from suet

Birds & Blooms 2006 showed a regular suet cage suspended from a square foot sheet of hardware cloth, with pieces of electrical wire attached to the edges, about 1" apart, hanging down. The starlings were unable to fly between the hanging wries, but other birds had no trouble. See page 19, april-may 2006 issue.

I know I know, Birds & Blooms has a lot of bad ideas. This one was submitted by a reader and looks like it would probably work.

Birds will continue to eat suet when insects are scarce (usually below 40 degrees.) Many suet recipes at http://www.sialis.org/suet.htm

Bet from CT

Last year I came up with an interesting method of preventing starlings from stealing the suet from my suet cage and the peanuts from my peanut cage feeder.

For the peanut feeder, it involved the use of a 2-liter soda bottle with the top cut off so that when the peanut cage is inserted it is just a tiny bit longer than the bottle.

You can see the photo of it here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/TMB/BluebirdNut/Starling-proof-peanut-bottle.jpg

For the suet cage, I used a 3-liter soda bottle in the same way.

Photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/TMB/BluebirdNut/Starling-proof-suet-bottle.jpg

This works on the principal that woodpeckers, nuthatches, and other clinging birds can hang upside down from the bottom of the cages to feed, while starlings can't. I've yet to see a starling successfully use either one of these feeders, and I've had them up for almost a year.
It's easy and - best of all - CHEEP at half the price!

The only thing is, during hot weather, you have to use a suet preparation with a high melting point, such as suet dough - otherwise you end up with a mess like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/TMB/BluebirdNut/starling-proof-suet-mess.jpg

Once I switched to suet dough, I had no further problems with melting.
And for the winter, I was able to use regular suet cakes without any trouble.

Cher

From: Sara Ann [mailto:sawright"at"hughes.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:06 PM
Subject: Sources for suet

We are having trouble finding real suet. For years, we could get it for a nominal fee at local meat processing plants. Now though, if the cattle's owners don't take the suet, it has to be disposed of. Probably due to mad cow disease. The grocery stores only have beef trimmings, which certainly isn't as good.

In the winter, I use lard for my 'suet cakes', but in the summer, we like to put out fresh suet. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Sara Ann Wright
Thayer MO

From: Lynn Emerich [mailto:lemerich"at"epix.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Sources for suet

Sara, I used to get mine at a local supermarket till the price hit .79/pound. I found a local butcher at the farmers market nearby. This market is open Thurs-Sat. When I get low on suet, I ask him for it and if he doesn't have it, he will save it for me for that next trip. This guy doesn't charge anything and the last time, he gave me about 40 pounds. I did explain what it was for, but don't know if that made a difference or not.

Lynn
Near Bernville, PA

From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: Supermarket suet

Sara Ann, et al,
For more than 5 decades, literally, I've always gotten raw, white suet straight from the meat department at the supermarket. They wrap the raw suet in packages of about 1 lb to 2 lb. It used to be free, back in the 50s, but no more. Now they charge a nominal amount. I have never made, bought, or used the so-called 'suet cakes.' The birds scarf up the raw suet readily, and every supermarket we've ever shopped at has had in the meat display, usually right next to the raw soup bones. I just cut it up and stick it in a wire 'suet-cage,' which hangs among the other feeders.
I can recall that my grandmother did the very same thing, and that was in the 20s and 30s. (I am extremely old.)

Bruce Burdett, SW NH

From: Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana [mailto:yumyumkatts"at"voyager.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Supermarket suet

I use real suet in the winter months but have to pay a lot more for it than in years past. I also used to get it free if you were using it to feed the birds. I make the Gourmet Bird Delight and put that in my feeder tray along with real suet.

Wal-mart used to have the real suet but they quit carrying it a couple of years or so ago. It was pretty reasonable there. Maybe if we all wrote Wal-mart a letter via their web page, they would start carrying it again.

I use the store bought suet cake in the summer as the real suet here will "melt" down in the heat. When I see the suet cakes on major sale, I'll get quite a few and store in the freezer.

Dottie, Hickory Hollow
Brown County, Indiana

We live in a rural area.
The stores we deal with do not have an old time butcher. Most of the
meats come prepackaged or untrimmed. We rarely find soup bones and
when we do, they are over priced. Old time suet is back at the packing
plant. Our farm store has nationally branded suet for $.69 a package.
I get the peanut treat for that price and the woodpeckers love it.

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 4:56 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket suet

Is raw suet the same as beef tallow?

Bet

From: Blaine Johnson [mailto:uncleblaine"at"gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Supermarket suet

Suet is beef *kidney* fat. No other fat or tallow is really suet. Not to say that other fats or tallows don't have a place in birdfeeding, but they are not suet.

Blaine

In todays language, suet and tallow are fat. It could from most any animal. I think originally suet was meant to be the large chunks of fat the surronded the kidneys. Today, I think the call all fat "suet". Maybe they think it's worth .69 cents per pound if you give it a good name. Soup bones they used to give away, no they're over a dollar a pound at some places and they didn't leave any meat on them.

Lynn near Bernville, PA

From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"verizon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Tallow

Here where I am, people don't use the word "tallow" very much, so I had to look it up.
The dictionary says it's a more general term which applies to many kinds of animal fat from many animal sources, so suet is a kind of tallow.

Bruce Burdett, SW NH

From: Fred Yeager [mailto:fyeager"at"columbus.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: Tallow

Suet is raw beef or mutton fat, especially the hard fat found around the loins and kidneys. It is a solid at room temperature, and melts at about 21°C (70°F). It is a saturated fat.
The primary use of suet is to make tallow in a process called rendering, which involves melting and extended simmering, followed by straining, cooling and usually a repetition of the entire process.
Unlike suet, tallow can be stored for extended periods without refrigeration. It is used to make soap, for cooking, as a bird food, and was once used for making candles.
The type sold in supermarkets is dehydrated suet.
Vegetarian suet is readily available in supermarkets in the United Kingdom. It is made from fat such as palm oil combined with rice flour. It resembles shredded beef suet, and is used as a substitute in recipes.

Continued in Suet, Part 3

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