Problems/Solutions with Premature Fledging for the Bluebirder

Subj: The twelve day old "myth"
Date: 8/9/99 10:35:50 PM Central Daylight Time
From: kridler"at"1Starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: kridler"at"1Starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas (yes the heat/drought is affecting my temper, firmly place tongue in cheek before reading any further I mean everything I say but with a :-) !
Dear all,
I know that most books state to NEVER open a nest box after the young are 12 days old just like nearly all of them state that the young bluebirds will help feed their younger brothers and sisters. Yes on very rare occasions I have watched siblings feeding siblings away from the nest box but never in the box. It has always been a token "gift" of an insect and the giver didn't seem impressed with the need to go get another insect just because his "little brother" was begging for another one! But I always use the "altruist" nature of the bluebird in talks and "humanize" them as one of the few species to exhibit this rare desire for young to rush to the aid of their brothers/sisters and raise them if something happens to their parents. Although this behavior though very rare is probably not so much a myth as a very slick selling point to get people hooked on "bluebirds"! How many dozens of bluebird parents have we had reported killed this year on this list and not one report of brothers and sisters coming to the rescue of their little brothers??? I believe the often repeated "never open the box after 12 days" kills more birds than any careful inspection of the box. If you have been opening the box every day and have a box that is easy to open why quit at 12 days? They still get blow flies, fire ants, wasps and all predators still consider them fair game even though they have made it to the "magical" 12 days old! Parent birds die the last 5 days the young are in the nest as easily as the first 12 days! Along a bluebird trail you have to check each box on the route! You can't say oh this box should have five babies in it 13 days old, I'll wait a week and clean it out next week! You have to look to be sure there are still five babies in the box! How can you record how many babies fledged if you don't check for the last week? Dozens of eggs/babies have disappeared from members of this list right outside their window in a matter of hours(sometimes minutes) and NOBODY saw anything wrong and NOBODY has the answers to what happened to all of them! I have been checking bluebird boxes since 1964 & have used almost every style box ever deemed feasible and I have never lost any bluebirds to "premature fledging". Yes I had some fall out of a Peterson box before I learned to be ready to catch them and the nest when opening this style box. And have had five nests of young fly upon opening boxes in the past but young who can all fly over 100' and safely land in trees have not just fledged prematurely, they were ready to leave! Over the years I have saved hundreds of young the last 7 days they were in the nest by just "breaking the rules" and opening the box to find snakes, flying squirrels, fire ants & house sparrows wrecking havoc with MY birds. In 1978 I opened my nest boxes over 7,000 times during weekly visits, fledged 1,235 Eastern bluebirds and no records of young "jumping ship". I consider this 12 day cut off/check out time a myth and if this is a real problem with members of this list, what boxes do you use and how are the young scared out of the box? I am really curious to know what other trail monitors think about this rule! KK

Subj: Re: The twelve day old "myth"
Date: 8/10/99 12:09:22 AM Central Daylight Time
From: birdsfly"at"innercite.com (Hatch Graham)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: birdsfly"at"innercite.com
To: kridler"at"1Starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
CC: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)

Hi Keith:
When I was putting together our little monitoring guide, I had reviewers quote the 12-day rule. I had often banded birds at 14 days but acquiesced and compromised at 13. Since many monitors call me to band but haven't kept good records, I have ended up opening boxes with presumed 13 day olds, only to find they must be 16 days or older. I've had two or three true cases of premature fledging. Usually I can gather up the chicks, stuff them back through the hole (too risky to open the door) and plug it with my bandanna and wait for them to quiet down. Sometimes (usually the males) will bolt a second time, but after another recapture by the big bad guy, they decide to stay in their cool dark hole. As I say, about 3 times I've had them scattered too far into high grass (and usually over a barbed wire fence) to gather them all. I get most, but a few have had to spend a night out. I say "a" night, because most of these are probably 19 days old, their tail is already an inch long, in another day it will grow a quarter inch and they will fly.

I've pretty much figured it is quite variable but the myth is much like the one we all know now is false: "don't touch the babies or the mothers will desert them!" I'm sure others have had premature fledgings--it's worrisome to gather up the little kids, so we make up a story to "help" others out. Thus: 12-days.
I am up to 16, now, but I don't recommend it for everyone.
Hatch.

...
--
Hatch Graham, Editor, Bluebirds Fly! California Bluebird
Recovery Program
El Dorado County "at" 3100 ft, Lat 38°37'43"N, Long 120°37'47"W
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
for the encouragement and conservation of cavity nesters -especially bluebirds- anywhere in the West

Subj: Premature fledging
Date: 8/10/99 12:16:50 AM Central Daylight Time
From: Sialiaman"at"aol.com
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: Sialiaman"at"aol.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Dick Purvis, Anaheim CA

This year I had over 425 bluebird nests which I monitored. I usually continue to monitor as late as the 19th or 20th day. The average fledging age for my birds is 22 to 23 days. I don't open any nestbox when the young are hanging at the entrance. I usually can quickly tell when the young are edgy and just leave them alone. However in spite of these precautions, I had young fledge from five nestboxes that I opened this year. In four of these cases the young were fully developed and could fly very well indeed. The parents accompanied them on their first flights. I'm sure that they were ok. In the fifth case the young could barely fly, I was able to catch only one and it wouldn't stay in the box. I have doubts about their survival considering the hazards of the location.

I saved a good number of birds from trouble by continuing to monitor which should make up for any possible minor losses. I fledged nearly 1500 bluebirds this year so I think I'm doing things the right way.

Subj: kridler"at"starnet.com (Keith & Sandy !2 day rule
Date: 8/10/99 7:54:07 AM Central Daylight Time
From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joseph Huber)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: hubertrap"at"webtv.net
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

The suggestion to not open a nest box after the young are 12 days old leaves you with 6 full days of possible disaster. My boxes were being monitored on a weekly basis before any of those books were in print. Here are a couple of examples of boxes being opened later. One year back in the 70,s I took photos of nesting activity every other day from egg hatch to fledge. Carried a step ladder out in my yard & set it in front of the box. This was a top opening box so photos were taken from above by removing the roof board. The first photo was of 3 eggs & 1 just hatched. The last photo was on day 19 in the AM & that afternoon they had fledged. Another example of opening a box after 12 days occurred when some parent EABB,s were not acting normal at their box. When opened there were 2 dead & 2 live EABB,s in the box. The live birds were standing up in corners of the box. I knew immediately it was blow fly larva. Went to the house & got a paper grocery bag & a towel. Placed towel in bottom of open bag. Then reached in and took out the 14 day old young birds. They were put in bottom of open bag while the nest was replaced with some unused sparrow nest material. Then 4 days later I watched from my porch as they fledged. Never had a BB leave the nest when monitoring. None.

Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber
hubertrap"at"webtv.net

Subj: RE: The twelve day old "myth"
Date: 8/10/99 5:54:35 PM Central Daylight Time
From: mcwrigh"at"nppd.com (Wright, Merlin C.)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: mcwrigh"at"nppd.com
To: kridler"at"1Starnet.com ('Keith & Sandy Kridler'), BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L"at")

In ten years I have only twice been present when the babies left and in both cases they went in a hurry. Once a snake provoked the parents into a special condition of telling the kids to scram and once when I approached the box. As I got near the box, the parents divebombed me and twittered a scram Message. I've been ignoreing the rule and will continue to do so.

Merlin Wright at Nemaha county NE 40*30'N, 95*45'W

Subj: 12 day Rule
Date: 8/10/99 8:33:38 PM Central Daylight Time
From: lviolett"at"earthlink.net (Linda Violett)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: lviolett"at"earthlink.net
To: Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu (Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu)

Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif.

Hatch, I hope you keep the 12-14 day "don't open" guideline in your brochures for those of us who don't have as much experience. Others who have been monitoring boxes a long time can open their boxes, I guess, just about any time they please and help bluebirds much longer before the fledge.

Those who can successfully break the 12-14 rule, gradually become aware that they can break it . . . as they acquire the skills to do it. But for those of us who
don't have those years behind us, that special touch, or perhaps fool-proof intuition, 12-14 days, I think, is a good rule.

...

Subj: Re: 12 day Rule
Date: 8/10/99 10:22:03 PM Central Daylight Time
From: Bluebyrder"at"aol.com
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: Bluebyrder"at"aol.com
To: Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu
...

This is something that I think is important for all of us to consider. There are many "newbies" on the list, who were they to have a premature fledging from their nestboxes, may not know what to do, until after it is too late. Granted there are also plenty on the list who have been doing this for a long time and would know how to handle the situation if it ever occurred.

There is another Bluebird forum that I have participated on for several years now, and on several occasion there have been urgent posting from those who
experienced a premature fledging and didn't know what to do. No matter how many times they gathered up the nestlings and put them back in the box, they
hopped right back out again. The adult Bluebirds were in a tizzy, the nestlings were upset, and the individuals, who opened the boxes in the first place, were beside themselves about what was happening.

Of course in these situations they were given advice about how to handle the problems. Yet for one person it was too late, as he was not able to gather up the nestlings before they hid in the brambles. He never saw them again from that day forward, although the parents hung around a few days calling plaintively before moving on.

It may in fact be perfectly acceptable for seasoned bluebirders to check their nestboxes right up until the very end, and doing this probably also saves the lives of Bluebirds that are in distress, but I think that generally speaking, the 12 -14 day rule is a good one. Remember, not everyone out there who is monitoring nestboxes are as dedicated as those on this list are, and many of them would not have the first idea of what to do were the nestlings to jump out of the box before they were capable of flying to safety.

Just this week, while checking on a nestbox with 5 HOuse WRens in it, 2 of them jumped out. These nestlings were a good 4 days away from fledging day.
Of course I gathered them up and put them back in their nestbox, holding my hand over the entrance hole until they settled down. (Do, I can hear the groans of those who have battled with HOWRs this season? I can also see the light bulb going on for some of you...this is not the way to handle HOWR problems.) These birds, whether I liked it or not, are a protected species, so after literally 2 months of pulling out sticks from dummy nests (daily!), a female decided to go ahead and build her nest without the customary stick foundation. Once she did that, it was a done deal, and she went on to lay her eggs. The rest is history.

But the point is that, yes birds do sometimes prematurely fledge, and when they do, it can be a real problem for those who don't have the experience to know how to handle it. So I think that it is still a good rule of thumb to recommend that nestboxes not be checked after the 12 - 14 days, even though many have done it successfully after that time.

Diane Barbin
Harrisburg, PA

Subj: 12/14 day rule
Date: 8/10/99 11:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time
From: james-walters"at"uiowa.edu (James P. Walters)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: james-walters"at"uiowa.edu
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

...

I agree with Joe. Over thirty-eight years, I have never had a bluebird leave the nest as a result of monitoring either. I've worked with a wide variety of boxes, too. Like many trail "problems," I've always thought this one was somewhat overstated. I make sure that I approach boxes "openly" - and by this, I mean that I am either talking or giving a warning whistle of my approach. I routinely tap on the box, to alert anyone who missed my earlier warning, and then open boxes cautiously, but deliberately. All my nestlings routinely hunker down.

That said, I am not nearly as concerned about the loss of individual bluebirds as many on this list. Within the limits of providing a reasonably good nesting cavity, I'm more interested in seeing them fledge successfully "on their own," than in providing a round-the-clock security blanket. I much prefer bluebirds who nest in natural cavities, to those who nest in my boxes. I much prefer aggressive bluebirds to passive ones. And I have confidence that nature has a much better understanding of who should live (and reproduce) than I do - with my limited human understanding.

Jim Walters james-walters"at"uiowa.edu
Johnson County Songbird Project
1033 E. Washington
Iowa City, IA 52240-5248 (319) 466-1134
U.S.A.

Subj: 12 day conclusion to checking
Date: 8/11/99 9:15:21 AM Central Daylight Time
From: kridler"at"1Starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: kridler"at"1Starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas rain missed us last night and 85*F "at" 6 AM
Thanks to all who wrote on and off the list. I think everyone got my point that I just wanted to "re-visit" this issue for all the new bluebirders on the list. I would like to see the "Do Not" open after 12 days changed to "Be Extra careful" in the literature and add "be prepared" to replace the young in the nest should they leave before they can fly to the nearest tree (which should be 50-100' away)!

I know the season is closing but the common issue of the ones having NO problem (or very little) with pre mature fledglings were that they talked, whistled or otherwise warned the nest box that they were back. Like me, most all tapped or drummed their fingers on the side of the box before opening also. If young birds were watching from the entrance hole they "did not" open the box. (Common sense since if you can see the young they are alert and not stressed, parent birds are acting normal then nothing bad is probably happening in the box.) If you have to use a screw driver or electric drill this also warns them of the person's arrival as would the ride down from a hanging box in a tree. All styles of boxes are opened slowly and evenly with NO sudden movements across the light or towards the young. You should not have to hit or hammer on the box to open it. We should all be prepared to handle the baby birds in an emergency such
as blowfly checking. Most bird banders have to wait till the 13-15 day to accurately sex the birds so they can record the sex in their records. (Theaverage person collects a band from a dead bird and most never have a clue as to the species of bird let alone sex especially if it is only a mass offeathers and skeleton!) It is very important for the bander to know what sex the bird was when that band was placed for a recovered band to be of any real value!

Some banders use a 1 gallon plastic bucket filled with dry grass clippings and have this in a dark drawstring bag so that they can remove all the young and place them in this dark container and remove them one at a time to band and replace them in the nestbox. I have watched banders at work and some stuff a cotton glove into the entrance hole before they ever open the box to begin. As they band they will remove the glove and pop the just banded young bird through the hole and replace the "sock or glove". When finished they wait a while for the young to settle down and then slowly remove the "sock" and wait a few more minutes, then retreat to the car and watch for the adults to return. This is the critical time for a pre mature fledge after handling these older young, if at this time a young bird jumps ship they will replace the bird and some will place a 1" diameter hole restrictor made from 1/4" plywood to allow the adults to continue to feed, but prevent the young from leaving. After a couple of hours the restrictor is removed and the watch & wait is repeated.

The above is also a good way to handle young for blowfly inspections and if you find fire ants have just invaded the nest, only now the young should be checked & cleaned and placed in the "bag" one at a time and this way the monitor always has a clean dry bucket of nesting material at hand for about 3 nest replacements.

It is very stressful for new bluebird monitors to be unprepared. Their common thread is that they have less than 10 nestboxes and have less than 100 fledged in their lifetime and most NEVER EVER had a problem until they dialed this list with and urgent 911 and had to wait hours and sometimes days (if ever) for the answer to pull up on their screen. I HATE it when I skip an urgent 911 call to the list that came in 10 seconds after I left for work and have been gone all day and it is so simple & repetitive that I KNOW many others have answered off the list only to get a "private" e-mail a week later begging for an answer....At least ONE answer needs to be posted on list for every question even if it has already been answered three times that week. Until it has already happened to YOU it is often not a problem you will ever have to deal with....so why read and learn the solution?

Many on our list like Wendy G. are getting gun shy about posting an answer or adding a better answer for fear of the flock of "Red Barons" hovering near us too ready to open fire on us in private and criticize our answers/lack of answers/ or incomplete answers or incorrect answers for EVERY trail in the US!!! Just because I have never seen or heard some of this stuff happening or working doesn't mean it can't!!! Many thanks for those coming out of the woodwork and making this a good debate and a better list! For the new monitors I wish the banders would tell how they handle young jumping ship after being banded as this will reduce stress and make for a better, more involved monitor next year. Sorry for the length of this post!!! KK

Subj: 12 day rule & back yard BB,s
Date: 8/11/99 9:44:21 AM Central Daylight Time
From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joseph Huber)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: hubertrap"at"webtv.net
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Most people have drifted away from top opening nest boxes for reasons I understand. It is safer to monitor from the top as the birds would have to be ready to fly to come out the top. Those who band birds are handling the birds so this may make it more likely one would try to escape. Perhaps someone has info on that. Top opening boxes can be modified to be dual opening for easy clean out. The one big mistake most people make in constructing a top opening box is the roof. The roof piece needs to be made of 3/4 inch exterior plywood. It doesn't warp. I've stuck with the top opening box because it,s easier to trap HOSP &
remove them by hand also gives a better view of the nest. Back yard BB,s Thats how I started out. Set out 2 nest boxes in 1968 & things took off. Expanded into selected neighborhood yards then to a local golf course. Then to friends yards all around town. These locations were picked because they were what I determined to be ideal. Some close friends never got a box. I made an agreement that I'd set out the box & monitor it. All of my locations had HOSP but that was taken care of. Every location fledged BB,s. There are tools to control HOSP for those willing to do it. Many people have the right (tools) traps right now.
If you give a person a tool box full of wrenches he,s not a mechanic. Needs to learn how first. We need both large trails & back yard bluebirders.

Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber
hubertrap"at"webtv.net

Subj: 12 days old to band
Date: 8/11/99 2:55:21 PM Central Daylight Time
From: kridler"at"1Starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: kridler"at"1Starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
It varies a few days between families and during the season but the bander needs to be able to see the extra blue color showing up in the wing feathers & this seems to be in the 12-13 day period but under stress and poor weather conditions it may stretch to 15 days for the Eastern Bluebird. Maybe we could get some feed back on the western and mountain species on when they can normally tell the sex & band these young. KK

Subj: A final take on the 12 day rule.
Date: 8/11/99 4:31:53 PM Central Daylight Time
From: sutterfolk"at"jps.net (W.Guglieri/G.Hyden)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: sutterfolk"at"jps.net
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Greetings all.

Have read some interesting postings on the List re: checking nests after 12 days. it's still a good "rule-of-thumb" rule. At least for those who haven't had much experience. The exception would be, of course, a nest which has had problems. Obviously, if a nest has had a blow-fly infestation, predation, etc., it would be wise to keep a closer eye on that particular nest. I've had nestlings "jump ship" when I thought it was perfectly fine to band them, and on that one occasion (working with Hatch Graham that day) we were able to catch and stuff most of them back in the box and have them stay put. One escaped, however, and in my neck of the woods (literally) I'm sure he wouldn't be able to make it outside of the box for even a day until ready to fly. Probably owl-bait.

One question to ask yourself: If the nestlings absolutely will not stay back in the box, are you prepared to care for them on your own for a day or two until ready to fledge? Do you know what to do with them? Many of you more experienced folks state that it's not happened to you in years of working a BB trail. But it does happen; there's a first time for everything. So I think that it's still a pretty good rule for those who would have to post a 911 call to the List if they had a clutch of, or even a single, bird that they didn't know what to do with. As you gain experience, you'll know how long you can "push" the rule.

Wendy Guglieri
Rescue, California

Subj: Re: 12 day conclusion to checking
Date: 8/11/99 9:10:32 PM Central Daylight Time
From: scriv001"at"tc.umn.edu (Dorene Scriven)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: scriv001"at"tc.umn.edu
To: randyj"at"enter.net, kridler"at"1Starnet.com, bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu
...

Randy - if the bander is familiar with bluebirds, he (or she) should be able to tell the difference in sexes at 12 days, if they are indeed that age. Even 13-14 days would be o.k. The males definitely have more blue in the wings. I am not going to get into the 12-day-rule argument, and it is true that those who are checking daily run less risk of scaring nestlings out too early. But unless our boxes are in our yards, most people can't check every day. I have seen - or rather heard and then saw- the male bluebird call out the young at 15 days when the box was being opened. Sure they could fly, but their chances of survival are much better when they are a few days older. The type of box also makes a difference - a top opening box where one can just look down is less frightening to the nestlings than a side or front opening box. So I would stick with a general rule of not opening the box much after 12-13 days unless it is one that is opened constantly when the parents are around. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with your opening the box a day or two after the bander had been there (at 12 days) and rechecking the band number against the more obvious sexual difference by that time.
-Dorene Scriven

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:55:47 -0400
From: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com
To: "bluebird-l" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Goof report

I have not been reporting all the things that go right on my trail or backyard nestboxes. Today I goofed, and I think we can all learn from my mistake. As I was inspecting my trail today I went to box #2 and felt sure everything was fine. As soon as I got close, two babies jumped out into 3 foot grass. I hurried up and captured them, put them back in the box, covered the entrance for a few minutes till they calmed down. The parents were very angry with me, but they did not show up till after the incident.

What happened? I thought these babies were just hatched, how come they got so big? Of course I was working from memory. I went back to my notes and found out that box #3 has the babies just hatched, and the babies in #2 are about 18 days old... big goof.

What I have learned: DO NOT DEPEND ON MEMORY, ALWAYS CHECK THE NOTEBOOK BEFORE GOING TO INSPECT THE NEXT BOX!!!

I hope you all learn from my mistake. I am sad to have made this mistake, and I hope by telling you about it you can learn without having to make the same mistake I made. Thanks for listening.

Fawzi from MD

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:54:39 -0500
From: "R_C Walshaw" walshaw"at"gte.net
To: "Bluebird Listserve" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Fawzi Goof report

Good points. I obviously can't remember every detail on my 80 box trail so I have developed a system that avoids the problem that you encountered. When I enter my field notes every week in my master record book I make a note for the following week's monitoring of any box that will have nestlings more than 12 days old. (I still monitor them as there may be a problem, but I do it very carefully). Bluebird Bob, Northeast Oklahoma.

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:38:28 -0400
From: Haleya Priest/Thom Levy hpandtl"at"crocker.com
To: BLUEBIRD BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: preemie EABL

Haleya Priest Amherst MA

Preemies: Last night they were VERY loud in their "give me food, dad" calls. So I figured they were healthier or at least still alive. The real ragged preemie would NOT accept food from me. S/he kept her little beak very tightly closed and just looked at me.

Today I thought they were gone, but dad came and I heard the little cheaps. He is not too taken with the mealworms but he does seem to use them. Have not seen mom since Monday, but surely she is out there. We've probably got only a short time before they do fledge - I think they might make it! H

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:17:11 -0400
From: Haleya Priest/Thom Levy
To: BLUEBIRD , DANLEAHY ,Betty , DEAN
Subject: EABL preemies "fledged"!

Haleya Priest Amherst MA

I am pleased to announce the successful "fledging" of the two EABL preemies that jumped ship on Saturday or Sunday. (I did find the 3rd baby dead right under the box. :-( .......I arrived just as they had "fledged" from under the tree where'd they'd been camped out for a few days. The process was no different than from the box - parents were both still nervous as all heck and one landed in the tall grasses - one in a tree. I left soon after that so they could just do their jobs..... They can't be distracted one bit during fledging.... So.... all's well that ends well!!!! These two EABLS I will always celebrate. What a surprise
and relief!!! H :-)

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:36:48 EDT
From: Okatsam"at"aol.com
To: Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Premature Fledging Question

Malinda Mastako
SE Michigan

I am in need of some advice. We had a strange spring weatherwise here in Michigan and strange hatching as well. Two of the five eggs hatched on Saturday the 14th of April. Another hatched on the 15th, the fourth egg the following day on the 16th. (The fifth egg never hatched and was removed after 5 days.) Never had that happen before! On nest checks I noticed a slight size difference, but nothing too major. Today the first young fledged at around 10:00 AM. I happened to be outside and had a great experience watching the parents meet him mid-air and guide him to the woods at the back of my property. None of the others tried to fledge until about 7:30 this evening. I was sitting on the deck and got to see that one go, too. Flew like a rocket straight to the woods. I suspected these were the oldest two. Immediately a third nestling appeared at the entrance and leaned in and out several times as they all do. On one of the leans, he went a bit too far, tried to back up, but his wing was all the way out and he fell straight to the ground!! I watched as the parents divebombed him to get him up and moving, meanwhile the fourth appeared at the door as well. The grounded nestling stayed absolutely still for several minutes, then walked a few steps. He could not fly at all. I walked over to him and picked him up, he made no attempt to fly. I raised and lowered him to see if he could at least flutter, he beat his wings a few times and then fell straight from my hand to the ground. Though the parents were upset, I picked him up again and put him back in the box. The other nestling backed up and stayed in --thank goodness. As I was putting him back in the box, I noticed that the tail feathers were still quite short-shorter than I am used to seeing on birds that have fledged. This one obviously needs more time and would not have been able to flutter away from any trouble he may have come across in the woods overnight, and it was getting dark fast! He kept trying to get out again, so we reduced the hole enough to keep the remaining two in, but the parents still able to feed. (At times like these I am glad I had read how to do this in books before I really needed to know!) Darkness fell a few minutes later and the parents had not yet returned from settling the two that had fledged. I am confident that I did the right thing, as one or both of them would have been easy prey, but what now? How long do I leave the hole restricted? Technically the "runt" was two weeks old Monday, but I fear the larger ones got the lion's share of the food from his appearance. The parents are very attentive and I am sure they know where these last two are. They are investigating and waving on another box in my yard already for a renesting, so I know they will be nearby tomorrow--they are in my yard all year. What to do? Would appreciate advice from those who have been through this. Sorry my note is so long, thanks for taking the time to read it.

Malinda Mastako
SE Michigan

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:21:37 -0400
From: "Elizabeth Nichols" birdlady"at"netstorm.net
To: Okatsam"at"aol.com
Cc: Bluebird-L"at"Cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Premature Fledging Question

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Okatsam"at"aol.com
Reply-To: Okatsam"at"aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:36:48 EDT

Hi Malinda:

I went thru a similar experience due to vandalism four yrs. ago, only the male and three babies survived box smashing. One nestling fledged, leaving two in box. The male continued to feed fledged one mealies, etc. in tree and neglected the two in the box. Nature calls it "survival of the fittest". I almost rescued the two from the box but left it up to the surviving male, The babies in the box died the next day. If I had it to do over again, I would have taken the two from the box to a rehabber.

My advice at this point is to watch & see if both parents are feeding the ones in the box. I believe you supplement w/mealworms and this is where the supplemental feeding pays off. If box dwellers are not being fed, try to get them to a rehabilitator ASAP.

Please keep us posted on this episode, this is why this network exists, we learn by voicing opinions and learning thru experience. Each
case is unique and requires study. Good Luck!

Betty Nichols, Middletown, MD

...

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:06:05 -0400
From: "Henry R. Denton" daltd9"at"msn.com
To: "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Successful Premature Fledging

At 14 days after their 4 eggs hatched, I noticed my backyard bluebird male hovering over the tall grass making lots of noise. Upon investigating, I found 1 BB baby about 2 ft. from its box in waist-high grass. What to do? I popped him back in his box and headed to the MBA (Mazzzchusetts BB Assoc.) BoD meeting. Next morning the box (of course) was empty. I then found 2 baby BBs in tall grass about 8 ft. from the box. I placed these in the bushes at the edge of the tall grass.

At this point, I think 1 made it to the trees on its own, 2 made it 8 ft., and 1 made it 4 ft. For 3 weeks I've watched ma & pa BB carry many mealworms into the trees and anxiously wondered how many made it. Today I saw all 4 eating mealworms from my dish - 3 weeks to-the-day after they "walked" out of the box!

Gwen Newton-Denton
Westfield, MA

From: "Pam Cox" pcox"at"cableone.net
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)
Subject:
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:13:23 -0500

I have a baby bluebird hopping around in the back yard. The parents seem fairly upset and constantly come back and forth to check on him. He cannot fly. I am sure of that because I have watched him flutter around on the ground for about 4 hours. Twice I have picked him up and put him back in the box, but he just comes right back out. Is there anything else I can do. I have also put him on a nearby low branch, but he couldn't hold on.

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:16:37 EDT
From: "Rwatts" rwatts"at"mymailstation.com
To: pcox"at"cableone.net, bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)
Subject: Re:

Do you know how old he is, to know if he would have been near normal fledging? What about the other nestlings, are they still in the nest?

The parents *would* be upset trying to keep track of him, if he's just fluttering around (especially if you are visible).

It's usually very difficult to put a nestling back into the box with any hope of staying there, if it's left the box prematurely. It's just possible you might put a temporary hole restrictor on, too small for the babies to get out, but enough for the parents to reach in to feed them.

Rhonda Watts
Wilton, N.H.

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:19:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Baby bird
From: Maynard R Sumner m-r-sumner"at"juno.com

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:13:23 -0500 "Pam Cox" pcox"at"cableone.net writes:
I have a baby bluebird hopping around in the back yard. The parents

...

Put him back in the box and put some thing in the hole. When he has been in the hole for 1/2 a hour, open the hole up.If he comes out again you may have to do it longer.

Maynard Sumner
Flint, MI

From: Autumn L. Kruer [mailto:autumnk"at"iglou.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 1:07 AM
Subject: RE: New member questions …

All the adults will fly away when you open the box to check (except maybe TRES – short for tree swallows - who will glide right within inches of your face to show their unhappiness with messing with their box). The bluebirds fret but come right back, and I don’t check their babies after about 12-13 days so I don’t cause an early fledging from fear on the babies’ part. …

Autumn in Kentucky

From: Paul Kilduff [mailto:pkilduff"at"usconnex.net]
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 6:49 AM
Subject: RE: New member questions - advice not to open box after12 days

I just want to introduce Arnold to the Best of Bluebird-L and in particular the part that deals with premature fledging.

http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/premies.htm

An index of links to all archived discussion is at a parent site:

http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/

Using that archive is a great way to read earlier discussions on this list, arranged by topic.

Another good resource is the Bluebird Reference guide at

http://www.bluebird.htmlplanet.com

Arnold: if you go to that top link you'll see that there is not agreement among expert bluebirders as to whether to open the box after a certain number of days. On our trail, at Oregon Ridge Park in Cockeysville, Baltimore County, MD, all our boxes (including Peterson-style) are top-opening, specifically in order to make it easier to open boxes with older nestlings in them while reducing the chance of their fledging prematurely (you have to block the hole while looking in). I just take a 2" or so hinge and attach the lid to the box at the rear. All our roofs are oversize; I just cut them a couple inches longer to accommodate the hinge in the back.

Paul Kilduff
Baltimore

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:06 AM
Subject: RE: New member questions - advice not to open box after12 days

Paul, when I was a "newbie" or "new person", it was a long time before I had enough confidence to open the box after day 13. Even now, I am very careful to not open the box very wide after day 13 because I think anything could spook them to fledging. My boxes have a front opening. They are much easier to clean.

I have found that after some have fledged, there would be one left that was dead, fully mature. (mine average fledging at day 17)

I am wondering if any of the people that open the box after day thirteen have found problems and if they removed a dead bird and if it was disruptive to the 13 day old chicks.

My thinking might not be correct, but I think having several upset 13 day old fledglings would be worse than trying to see if they were all alive and remove a dead one. Maybe someone has good insight on this and could share with us, or any other situations they've found after day 13 would be interesting to know.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA

From: Paul Kilduff [mailto:pkilduff"at"usconnex.net]
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:39 AM
Subject: RE: New member questions - advice not to open box after12 days

Hi, Evelyn,

With regard to cleaning, I make our boxes with distinctive screws (I use blue masonry screws) to let the monitors know which screws are intended to be loosened -- each box has two. A typical NABS-style box has a blue screw in the roof, which allows the monitor to look in from the top (the height is matched to the height of our shortest volunteer), and a blue screw in the side away from the sunscreen, allowing the side to be opened for cleaning. Peterson-style boxes have one in the roof, and one to release the front so it can tilt down for cleaning.

With regard to one dead nestling found after fledging, that's one reason I tend to favor "late" monitoring -- to prevent that death, if it can be prevented. If for some reason a nestling is alone in a box that previously had multiple nestlings, that might be a sign that something is wrong, and that it may be stuck or in some way cannot get out. I want to be able to deal with that while the nestling is still alive.

Best regards,
Paul Kilduff, Baltimore MD

From: Debbie
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005
Subject: RE: New member questions - advice not to open box after12 days

Good evening all,
Just like Evelyn, I had a brood this year with 4 babies. one died, not sure of the day, but I left it alone for fear of early fledging. The remaining 3 fledged, and then i emptied the nest and now I have another nest with 3 eggs. It took longer for the bb to build the new nest than it has in the past when there hasn't been a dead baby. This is my first experience with a dead mature bb. I use the Gilbertson PVC houses. This year, the HOSP built a nest in a wooden house on the other side of one and believe it or not, the bb built one on the other side of the same pole. I think used it as a decoy, because now they have the new nest and 3 eggs I mentioned earlier.

Looking forward to more babies. p.s. I also have several TRES eggs. Not sure how many since mom is always sitting on them when I check the nest. Again, this is in a Gilbertson house.

Happy Birding

Debbie
Darlington, MD

From: Maynard R Sumner [mailto:m-r-sumner"at"juno.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:27 PM
Subject: Babies Bluebirds leaving box too soon

I had a man e-mail me from Indianapolis, Indiana. I told him some things you could do.
I asked him if it would be okay to e-mail you and maybe someone near Indianapolis can help him more.

Maynard Sumner
Flint, MI

From: Brennen Laws, blaws1234"at"yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006
Subject: Early fledge

Hello,

My name is Brennen Laws and I live outside of Indianapolis, Indiana. I am on my second season of helping Bluebirds babies. Here is my situation. I noticed when I went out to feed the mom and dad yesterday that all of the babies were out of the nest. I saw two were still in the fenced in back yard. I left them alone but it started turning dark I started to worry because sometimes cats go into our back yard at night and I did not want them to get killed. So right or wrong I put them back into the nest so the cats would not get them. This morning they were still in the nest. The mom and dad were on the fence as always waiting for food. I am not sure if they know that they are back in the nest. I would think they might go in to check.
Also today and
tomorrow it is suppose to rain a lot and have strong winds maybe 25-35 mph, I think.
What should I do if they are in the yard today and have not left to go into the woods with mom and dad. Is there a chance that the mom and dad will abandon them or not know they are back in the nest. I realize that nature usually works things out but I did not want them to die so that why I did this.

From: roy pischer [mailto:tlp4456"at"msn.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:14 AM
Subject: Early fledge

The five EABL hatchlings in my backyard nestbox fledged after 14 days in the nest box - at least 5 days early. I watched Mom & Dad repeatedly flying to the mealworm then flying to the ground just below my DRST, and discovered a very small baby EABL. I placed him on the DRST shelf, where Mom & Dad continued to fly to him and feed. However, so did a territorial mockingbird. I finally placed baby EABL back in nest box where Mom immediately flew and continued to feed. I've removed the mealworm feeder in hopes of encouraging the mocker to move on. Any other advice???

Trudy Pischer
Willard, MO

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Early fledge

Trudy, on our website we have a schedule put out by Birdwatcher's Digest.
The schedule for fledging is 14 to 22 days. I wondered about it as it is the only place I have seen 14 days included in the fledging schedule. I had asked the question on here before if anyone ever had them fledge that early and the welfare of the birds. So far, you are the first person to write about it. Mine average fledging on day 17. (a very high percentage of them
do)

You are lucky to have gotten the baby bluebird to stay in the nestbox. How did you get it to stay there? Most times you have to close the hole with something for 30 minutes or an hour. They don't usually stay in the box once they have left prematurely and never return to go inside after fledging.

I hope removing the feeder helps, but my experience is that the Mocker usually dominates the area. However, if these Bluebirds nested and the Mocker was around, they must can hold their own.

Good luck,
Evelyn

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 9:42 AM
Subject: picture of the week - three beautiful nestlings and discussion of premature fledging

http://www.sialis.org/picture0814threesome.htm

I probably caused premature fledging of Eastern Bluebirds in a box on my trail last week. I was unable to check the trail for 2 weeks (another bout of what appears to be Lyme Disease) and just HAD to look… and then left the box open too long trying to get a head count. One male tried to fly out and I grabbed him in mid-air, put him back, closed the box and stuffed a paper towel in it. Meanwhile seven bluebirds were beak clicking and divebombing me (probably the parents plus young from previous brood) and were very agitated.

We waited about 10 minutes until things quieted down, removed the paper towel, and watched from a distance. Two young left the box shortly afterwards. One flew very well. The other did okay but landed on the ground. Hopefully they were okay. I was kicking myself of course. Part of the problem was that these birds were not used to regular monitoring. Bad move on my part.

Bet from CT

Problems/Solutions with Premature Fledging for the Bluebirder

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