Pesticides and Alternatives

... below is a list of other garden recipes that some folks maybe in interested in ... provided by my friend Bob Tanem, a local gardener, nursery owner for over 35+ years and radio talk show host in San Francisco (where I've been a guest talking about cavity nesting birds.) You can check out Bob's web site at: http://www.bobtanem.com/

... Garden Recipes

Grease Ant Recipe

• 1 lb. Bacon
• 4 tbs. baking powder
• 4 packages yeast
• Corn meal

Fry the bacon and collect all the grease. Save the bacon for something else!  Add some corn meal to make a paste (not too much) Add the baking powder and yeast and blend everything together. Place the mixture in jar lids. Place the lids in ant paths (under the refrigerator is a good place if you have animals.)

Classic Ant Recipe ....

• 3 cups water
• 1 cup sugar
• 4 tsp. boric acid powder (available at the pharmacy)

Bring water and sugar just to boil and stir in boric acid. Place mixture in small jar lids and place in ant paths. Remaining mixture can be stored in a tight, well marked container in cupboard. Keep jar lids filled and out of reach of children and pets. You can place it under mesh or another can, so ants can get in but animals can't.

...

Squirrel Recipe (to deter Squirrels)

• ½ oz Tobasco Sauce 1 tsp. Chili Powder
• 1 pt. water ½ tsp. dishwashing liquid

Mix in Spray bottle and spray the soil where Squirrels dig.

Racoon Chaser

Use this recipe to create an unpleasant experience for your local racoons. They often do not refrequent a place where they have had an unpleasant experience. Try not to have accessible water nearby.

• Captain Crunch Cereal(or similar sugar cereal)
• Marshmallows
• Hot Tai Pepper
• Peanut Butter

Mix in an old aluminum pie plate and place in areas where they do the most damage.

John Schuster...

From: KCBSP"at"aol.com, KCBSP"at"aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 9:12 AM
Subject: Tobacco Stems

Kathy Clark, New Cumberland, PA Hello folks! A few weeks ago I received a phone call from a gentleman and wondered if anybody else got these calls. He saw our advertisement for the Bluebird Society of PA Conference and wanted to donate a product of his for the auction which was very gracious. Anyway he has written a note here and sent it along with this product, Tobacco stems. I wanted to see what anybody else knew about it and if they also received this product to try. Here is what his note states: ...

Tobacco stems is an experimental product used by some Purple Martin landlords for parasite control in nests. Tobacco has been found effective against the Southern Bird Mite according to some reports from the 2003 season. It is a safe organic product and will not harm handler nor birds. Tobacco may be useful to Bluebird people by adding to boxes before nesting begins, then adding a few pieces as nesting proceeds. It would be interesting to see if effective against blow fly larva as we do not have this problem in the southern regions. We have tobacco stems available for control of parasites in Purple Martin and Bluebird nests.

He then gives order information and how to reach him. I'd like to copy this to the blowfly man but I don't have his email.. the one that got all the nests from alot of you. Would somebody please do that and see if he has anything to say? Whatcha all think of this? Who else got some from him? Anybody ever try it or know about it? Thanks. Kathy

From: Pamela Ford, jpford"at"comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:31 AM
RE: Tobacco Stems

Haven’t heard of this in particular, but I know that nicotine is a powerful insecticide sometimes found in commercial products. Theoretically, the tobacco stem’s nicotine content may kill mites, but I don’t know if this has been tested. Pam in Harford County, MAryland

From: KCBSP"at"aol.com, KCBSP"at"aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 12:46 PM
Re: Tobacco Stems

Does anybody have Terri Whitworth's email? It would be cool to see what he thinks. I'd ask him if he would post something to the list. Pam you got a good point there. Wonder if it would be worth testing and if Terri thinks so maybe this fella would give us enough for a season to see what kind of results we would get. It would be important though to set up parameters how and when we would use it and how much etc. Just an idea.... Kathy

From: Ylana Moye, ylanamoye"AT"junct.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 1:34 PM
RE: Tobacco Stems

Nicotine is also toxic. Just because something is organic it isn't safe. It can be toxic to a small child. I would want to see studies done before I used it in my nest boxes. Herbs and natural substances can be very dangerous. Lana NE Oklahoma

From: Bet Zimmerman, ezdz"at"charter.net
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 9:26 AM
RE: Tobacco Stems

Unfortunately, humans DO get mites - scabies. They borrow into the skin, and the burrowing and subsequent defacation causes intense itching and infection. See http://www.aad.org/pamphlets/Scabies.html. I know because when I was in the Peace Corps in Ecuador in 1978 I got one of the worst cases the dermatologist had ever seen. (You can pick it up by shaking hands with an infected individual.) I don't smoke :-) but they did give me a lovely DDT crème that I slathered all over. It worked. (Use of DDT in the US was banned in 1972, but it was still exported to other countries. I was willing to use it short term because I couldn't even sleep because of the itching.)

Okay, enough grossness. Anyway, I did a quick search on the web to see if there had been any studies regarding nicotine and scabies.

Waaaaaaaay back in 1597, botanist John Gerard wrote that tobacco cured scabies, along with kidney pain, toothaches, worms, ulcers, burns and gunshot wounds :-)

These is also a traditional folk remedy in Bangladesh using tobacco leaves to combat scabies (Recipe found in a Bangladeshi book written by Akm Fazlur Rahman Aanwari. Translation: "Tested Remedy for Skin Disease. If skin disease like ringworm, eczema, scabies, etc are not being cured by medicines then mix some dry coffee or tobacco leaves with some lime powder and grind them together vigorously. Thereafter recite Sur Fatiha thrice and Sura Ikhlash thrice over the potion. Apply the potion over the affected skin for three consecutive days. God willing, your disease will be cured.")

The webpage where I found the remedy was a medical report about a child who had contracted nicotine poisoning through dermal absorption. This medial report said: "Nicotine is a highly toxic substance in overdose and is rapidly absorbed from the skin. We recommend that parents are educated about the potential toxicity of seemingly innocuous substances used in traditional remedies, and that extra care needs to be taken when taking a history through an interpreter. Health care professionals should be aware of the symptoms and signs of nicotine poisoning and that rapid absorption of the drug is possible through the skin. Treatment of nicotine poisoning is essentially supportive but atropine can specifically treat muscarinic symptoms such as bradycardia, salivation, and wheezing." http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/archdischild%3B85/6/500

As noted in a previous post, liquid preparations of tobacco, and crude solutions of nicotine, are used as insecticides in horticulture by spraying and by vaporization. Also,"Nicotine salicylate (Eudermol) is employed as a parasiticide. It occurs in white or yellowish-white crystals, or as a crystalline powder, with a faint empyreumatic odour. It is soluble in water and in alcohol, but is used chiefly in the form of ointment (1 per cent.), prepared with lard, soft paraffin, or hydrous wool fat, for scabies and sycosis. ... In using these, precautions should be taken against absorption by contact with the skin. It is an extremely poisonous substance, and large doses may prove fatal within a few minutes, the symptoms being those of sudden paralysis of the central nervous system, including the respiratory centre. In cases of poisoning by nicotine the stomach should be evacuated, and repeated doses of tannic acid given. The patient must be kept warm in bed, and the medulla kept active by such stimulants as caffeine, atropine, and strychnine; but if there are signs of respiratory failure artificial respiration with oxygen must be resorted to immediately." http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/bpc1911/nicotiana.html

Although nicotine is a "naturally occurring" substance (like arsenic and uranium) I don't think I'd use it in a nestbox.

Bet from CT (Certified Environmental Professional)

From: KCBSP"at"aol.com, KCBSP"at"aol.com
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:52 AM
Subject: Tobacco Stems--Heard from Terry Whitworth (Blowfly study)

Kathy, The primary toxin in tobacco is nicotine, it is still used as a pesticide. It is highly toxic in extracted form, but I'm not sure what effect it might have in the form of tobacco stems. Toxicologists see no difference between natural and manmade toxins. If it's toxic enough to kill mites and blow flies, it is potentially toxic to the birds. Given that, parasites are also toxic, it's a question of which is worse.

As I have said before, if we artificially protect birds from natural parasites, the "survival of the fittest" selective pressure no longer exists so birds could become less "hardy." If you have been protecting nesting birds from parasites for many generations and some of the progeny end up in a wild nest site that is parasitized, they may be less able to survive. Having said this, I wouldn't try tobacco leaves on a large scale until someone has done controlled testing for toxicity and efficacy. One problem with studying birds, especially nestlings, is you can't determine possible long term consequences. Perhaps nestlings reared in tobacco leaves may have lower survival rates once they fledge.

Terry Whitworth, Ph.D.
Entomologist
http://www.birdblowfly.com

From: plkldf"at"comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:01 PM
Subject: copper hydroxide and sulfur

Paul Kilduff, Baltimore MD

I've just visited a vineyard in Unionville, Frederick Co., MD. They are interested in bluebirds as insect catchers, specifically Japanese beetles, for their grapes. They want me to help them put up boxes and get some folks to monitor them.

I have a couple of concerns.

1) They will spray the leaves with copper hydroxide solution as a fungicide http://www.alanwood.net/pesticides/copper_hydroxide.html and they will spray with a sulfur-in-water solution.

I searched best of bluebird box -- BTW that's at: http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bluebird_box_search_page.htm and got no result for copper hydroxide or sulfur.

2) The guy's talking about attracting hawks to the place around mid-August to scare away birds that eat the grapes, like blackbirds. Says the blues'll be gone by then. I told him they won't be nesting by then, but they may stick around. I never heard of EABL or TRES eating grapes, but of course he is worried about other species. Seems he takes chicken feathers and puts them at the end of each row -- I wasn't clear whether this is to attract the birds of prey but I suppose it is.

Anyone have any opinions on either aspect? Would you help him put up nestboxes given those two circumstances?

Paul Kilduff

From: plkldf"at"comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: copper hydroxide and sulfur Paul Kilduff, Baltimore MD

Follow up to my earlier query about a vineyard using copper hydroxide and sulfur as fungicides: Thanks to all who replied. No one had anything bad to say about the two chemicals. I found an EPA site that essentially said the copper hydroxide is as close to harmless as something can be (although that's what they said about DDT!). I guess we'll find out this season if the nestlings do okay. I'm going to go ahead and help him. I forwarded that falconer/vineyard website to him. best, Paul in Baltimore

From: MJShearer, eshearer"at"comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 12:24 PM
Re: copper hydroxide and sulfur

Hi again, Paul, I believe the consensus was that it is "relatively safe" to use. It probably isn't in the same risk level as DDT, but some people have a problem with metal metabolism. MJ (Mary Jane Shearer; Tucker, GA) Here's a news release on research at from OHSU: http://www.ohsu.edu/news/2004/011304metal.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OHSU-LED RESEARCH EXAMINES ROLE OF COPPER, IRON IN DISEASES Interdisciplinary project targets disruptions of metal ion balance in human cells PORTLAND, Ore. - For years, scientists have worked to pinpoint what causes the short-circuit of copper metabolism in human cells that leads to two deadly neurodegenerative disorders known as Wilson's disease and Menkes disease. Now, a research team led by scientists at Oregon Health & Science University is working full time at the molecular level of medicine to find out. These "metallobiochemists" are part of an interdisciplinary research program that has become one of the first in the nation to focus on understanding metal homeostasis in human cells and its disruption not just in Wilson's and Menkes diseases, but also diseases such as hemochromatosis, Lou Gehrig's disease and even mad cow disease, all of which may be linked to errors in metal metabolism. The research explores molecular mechanisms regulating primarily copper and iron concentrations in normal and diseased cells. The metals are essential to a wide range of biological processes, and aberrations in their metabolism lead to life-threatening and disabling disorders.

From: John Schuster, wildwingco"at"earthlink.net
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 12:21 PM
Subject: Copper Hydroxide, Sulfur, Barn Owls and Bluebirds + Raptors

... Copper Hydroxide and Sulfur are used for treating vineyards for powdery mildew, fungus and other plant diseases. Both are know as fungicides.

Copper Hydroxide has 3 classifications #1 “Caution”, #2 “Warning” and #3 “Danger” levels. Each level suggest how the Copper Hydroxide is to be applied and the hazards to both humans and animals (including birds) are clearly indicated for each level.

The #3 classifications or “Danger” level is dangerous to humans (and birds alike), but vineyard operations unusually use the lower benign levels.

We've been dusting our vineyards that are filled with flocks of Bluebirds (and others birds) for over 10 years and our Bluebird flocks are healthy and thriving all year long.

Only once did I lost a female Bluebird (found her dead inside a nest box 4 years ago) and that was not due to our sulfur dusting . I ended up tracing the culprit to a neighbor that was spray DIAZINON next door to our vineyard. YIKES! VERY NASTY STUFF DIAZINON!!! If a Bluebird or any insect eating bird picks up a dead or dying insect that was hit with DIAZINON it's CURTAINS!

However, spraying vineyards with Copper Hydroxide and Sulfur at benign levels will not harm the songbirds.

Attracting Raptors to a vineyard is fantastic. The best way to do this is to install Raptor Perches. The old timers on Bluebird L have heard this from me before, but for you new folks the Raptor Perch is the "Bees Knees" the "Cats Pajamas" the "... oh well you get the picture.

In short, the Raptor Perch is a twin crossed perch that stands 21 feet high and the distance between the 2 perches is 3 feet. It will accommodate Golden Eagles, Red-tail Hawks, American Kestrels, Red Shoulder Hawks, and at night Barn, Great Horned and Screech owls.

The Barn Owl (along with snakes, coyotes, foxes etc.) is by far the most effective rodent killer on the planet and a big friend to farmers.

We have Barn Owl nesting boxes all over Northern California and one method that I've found that works great for getting Barn Owls into nest boxes faster is to place a Raptor Perch 50 yards in front of the Barn Owl nest box. Besides it's primer use as a hunting platform, the Raptor Perch also helps the owlets survive their solo flights (when they fledge), but more important to Barn Owls, the Raptor Perches over hanging perch thwarts the deadly attacks of Great Horn Owls that will kill and eat Barn Owls. That is one reason that the Great Horn Owl is known as the "TIGER OF THE NIGHT SKY" as it will kill just about anything that it can take by surprise.

We have some cool pictures of some Raptor Perches that we recently installed in the Napa Valley, and I loaded one of the pictures along with some text onto my web site. Check it out and I hope to have plans loaded onto the web site in the future.

As far as Bluebirds getting picked off by Raptors, Well, I wouldn't worry about that either as Raptors may take out an unsuspecting Bluebird, but Raptors like easy prey and Bluebirds are far more nimble than finches or other clumsy birds.

I think one of the Raptors that will kill a Bluebird (with some regularity) would be the

If you would like more information Paul, just shoot me an e-mail

...
John Schuster...

From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 1:58 PM
Subject: Mosquito Spraying ...

Just a quick little note to let you know that if your county health department is spraying for mosquitoes, you can call them and at least get your property on the "no spray" list. Enlist your neighbors to do the same if they are concerned. We do this each year. Paula Z Powell (Central) Ohio

Spring in California is green, green, and green! When I checked my nestbox to see if the first WEBL nest was complete, it suddenly occurred to me that it was constructed of dried grass, and there is no brown, dry grass this time of year! Duh! Other years, in my previous home, the first nest was made of the shredded redwood bark that I use for mulch in my garden, but the first two seasons here I noticed the birds used grass.

Well, the city sprays along the walking path behind my lot in the spring, and also around some trees and shrubs out there, so the birds are using this source for their nesting material. I don't know what I can possibly do about this, but I'm concerned for the health of the birds and the chicks.
Should I take the box down until our rain stops (usually by the second
nesting) and there is naturally dead grass for them to use? I'm sure they'll just build a nest elsewhere using the same material.

Will this harm the birds? I don't use pesticides or herbicides in my yard, but my neighbors do, and so does the city! Could this be the reason that we've lost chicks here, in the first nesting?

Barbara in Cloverdale, CA

Barbara, Do you know what the city sprays? If it's glyphosate (Roundup), in several days, sunlight will break it down. Although I'm totally against using ANY kind of pesticide around birds, using some dead twigs/grass that was sprayed last week with glyphosate may be better than just skipping the 1st breeding cycle.

If they mixed the Roundup with something else (and many places do!), there may be more of a problem.

I remember reading somewhere that birds will use the natural fibers used as in the bottom of hanging flower baskets (to hold the soil). I think that the fiber might have been from coconuts??? Perhaps you could find such an alternative for the 1st cycle of nesting.

I always save some dried grass by my compost pile. The birds seem to enjoy using it, rather than having to gather their own. Perhaps one of your neighbors who composts, might have some grass not yet added to the heap.

Do you have enough dead grass in your lawn, that you might be able to rake up enough for the nests?

Good luck.

Dottie Roseboom
Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Like Dottie mentioned I would not worry too much about herbicide residue. It takes about 15 days for grass to be killed and dried when sprayed with Roundup. There very well might be someone who has mowed or used a weed eater and these are lawn clippings being carried in to the nestbox. If you use pine needles for mulch in your flower beds very often the bluebirds will use these to build a nest.

You can buy a small block of hay at a feed store and mow over a few handfuls every couple of days when your bluebirds are nest building. For the price of 20 mealworms you can buy a whole bale of hay!

Broadleaf weed killers don't work on very many species or varieties of grass. When spraying brush in fence lines most extension agents suggest adding the Round-up as a double whammy to kill all of the fence line plants.
Normally these are the thorny vines and berry producing trees and shrubs that birds have planted with their droppings in the first place.

Over grown fence lines create the food chain and provide the protection for mice and insects and allow many species of birds to nest in "brushy areas".
You won't find a bird nesting in the grass of a yard or field that is mowed every couple of weeks! KK

Dottie & Barbara,

You will both cringe at this one, but thought I would relay last spring's experience with Roundup FYI. I know the stuff is bad for ecosystems, but we planted a new lawn last year and my husband sprayed Roundup (only that) on the whole of the backyard of our vacation home to kill the weeds before eventually planting grass. He did this in the spring when the birds were
nesting. Our vacation home is in heavy Tree Swallow area. The TRES used
this dead grass killed with herbicides for their nests. I saw them pulling it up. I had 3 nests of TRES in our yard and 7 more in boxes along the airport. All of these babies fledged fine. For those 3 boxes in the yard (where they most likely used the chemically treated grass), there were 18 eggs laid. 15 of these eggs hatched and all 15 TRES fledged. Now, I can't say I can guarantee they weren't adversely affected biologically somehow, but they seemed OK. The TRES fledging rate at our vacation home is higher than my trail here in central Ohio. The Roundup did not "seem" to affect them in regards to the nesting material.

I guess I would be more concerned with continued herbicide use during the period when the WEBL are feeding their young. This seems to be the greatest danger regarding pesticides and herbicides. If the parent picks up a ground insect that has recently been sprayed or crawled through the mire, and then feeds it to its young, it could be certain death for a tender young nestling.

You might want to prepare a little handout for neighbors and city and give them some alternative ideas to spraying. Ask them to spray at dusk if they feel the need to use these chemicals. That way, wriggling bugs dying from pesticides won't become food for WEBL. You could save some lives this way I would think. Herbicides would hold same concern during application I would think. A newly sprayed Roundup bug certainly would be bad food for any wildlife. I at least got my husband to spray at dusk and we won't need the stuff again.

Paula Z
Powell (Central) Ohio

We can all salute the position that none is best when it comes to pesticides and herbicides. But in keeping things in perspective, Roundup is about as innocuous as can be expected for any chemical formulation that can kill things. If Roundup touches soils, particularly clays, it is immediately rendered inert and does degrade in sunshine. Even though it takes 15 days for things to die from Roundup, the active agents in Roundup decompose very rapidly in the environment...much faster than 15 days. And, I doubt if grass clippings will have any residual Roundup; you didn't spray your lawn did you?

So, if your Park people are insistent they are going to spray, if they restrict themselves to Roundup, as least the fauna damage will be limited, even if there is a loss of valuable flora.

Pesticides/Insecticides are another matter altogether. Zero is the only acceptable level.

Chuck

Yes, I agree that Roundup degrades fairly rapidly, which is a good thing, since so many people insist upon using it.

And ironically, Roundup may be safer for birds' nests than it is for the monitor's vegetable garden. Several years ago, a study showed that when large areas were defoliated by glyphosate in one spring, and was planted the following spring, that the chemical was found within the new plant's tissue. Of course, there is disagreement about how harmful it is to ingest such plants.

Thankfully, Bluebirds aren't into eating grass :-) There are probably
many more harmful things for birds to encounter than dried Roundup.

And in some cases, Roundup is very effective, as when a lawn needs to be redone. (I'm still trying to convince people that a solid turf of nothing but KY Bluegrass is a desert for wildlife. But that's another story.)

I might suggest for people using Roundup to kill off an area for a garden or flowerbed, to use an alternative: lay down newspapers, cover with woodchips, leaves, or grass clippings. Go enjoy your Bluebirds for 6 weeks. Come back and gently move aside the mulch, dig a hole, plant your shrub, replace the mulch, and sit back & enjoy a non-herbicide yard. This is especially effective if done in August, and planted the following spring.

Dottie Roseboom
Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

Paula, excellent point about the nestlings ingesting pesticides. Studies that I've read indicate that until nestlings have feathers, they are especially vulnerable to pesticides.
...

Dottie Roseboom
Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Herbicides and nests

Dear Barbara and friends,

I would first politely ask the city of Cloverdale, what it is that they are spraying first. Chances are that they are just using Roundup, if so, then I wouldn't worry. We've been using Roundup in our the vineyards for well over 10 years, we have loads of health Bluebirds and have fledged loads of same for over a decade. After 2 weeks the Roundup is inert.

Cities parks and agricultural programs have to stick to strict guidelines for applications, failures to do that can get you into hot water with the EPA (and rightly so.)

However, I would be more concerned with pesticides (than herbicides) and your neighbors spraying would be something that I would be afraid of.

You see most do not measure and just dump what ever they like into a spray tank and spray away without any idea of the consequences. The only time I can directly link a spraying that killed a female Bluebird was when a neighbor sprayed for Earwigs around his house with Diazinon. The female Bluebird much have pick up a dying insect and it killed her. Loosing chicks could be related to pesticide spraying next door by your neighbors.

If you still have a concerns about the herbicides, then try this nesting material trick by gathering clean dry grasses and place loads of this material 10 to 20 feet away from the nest boxes. Your Bluebirds will more than likely go for it for nest building and if on a remote chance they use sprayed material, it will not be as prevalent a material inside the nest boxes. ...

[Note from webmaster: for remainder of thread on this topic, see Providing Nesting Material]

From: ZZZ [mailto:ZZZ]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: Herbicides and nests

I agree. Roundup is widely used by environmentally sensitive gardeners and landscape managers. It breaks down quickly so doesn’t leave a residue.

My native plant advisor, just to be safe, will not use Roundup near water or when rain is threatened (so that the chemical doesn’t get into the water table.)

Rebecca J.
Columbia, Maryland

To restate and elaborate on the point that has been mentioned in a previous email already...

A herbicide targets plants. A pesticide targets mammalian species of "vermin" (i.e. mice, rats, etc.). An insecticide targets insects.
Herbicides are pretty benign to humans, other mammals, and birds (there are exceptions, of course). Pesticides and Insecticides are pretty nasty chems in general, which can easily effect us, other mammals, birds, reptiles, etc.

Round-up is a herbicide, and is extremely non-toxic. It is an herbicide -- so it works on plants -- if you have questions about it's toxicity, check the label when you're at Lowes or Home Depot next time. It's category is only a "Caution", the meaning it is pretty safe -- the LD50 for a rat is 5,108mg/kg of body weight... to give you some idea of how nontoxic it is...
table salt has an LD50 for a rat is only 3,000 mg/kg of body weight. (The avian toxicity test -- on bobwhite quail -- was >5,620 mg/kg of body weight
-- "at" which point they stop testing... the quail survived with no apparent
effects.) Round-up inhibits the production of an enzyme that only plants have (which they require) to live... thus they die. It's soil inactive -- so once it contacts soil, it's inert -- so no lingering effects in the next plants that grow there. It's not mutagenic. It is moderately toxic to freshwater fish, if the chemical is sprayed directly into the water -- but table salt is even more so.

I agree that you should check to see what they are spraying -- it'll make you sleep better :) You have every right to know what they are spraying, and if it is toxic, the right to really ask questions related to what they are trying to accomplish and how they are using it. Anyone can spray Roundup... it's available "at" your local hardware store. It's not a restricted herbicide, but your "average" Joe tends to believe if they use more it'll work better... not so... maybe a little faster, but definitely no better. Most people who apply herbicides/pestic/insecticides are required to be licensed or registered -- varies by state -- if they are applying on a regular basis. Your neighbors aren't necessarily required to for the stuff they get "at" the hardware store.

One other point to make you feel a bit more at ease... Round-up is actually used in situations to aid in the restoration of wildlife habitat. It's primarily used to get rid of tall fescue and bermuda grass, as these are very poor for food and cover values to such species as bobwhite quail, various mice, rabbits, deer, and songbirds. Tall fescue and bermuda are exotic invasive grass species that we have introduced and propogated... and we're starting to see the downsides, but people are slow to change. But, Round-up is non-selective, meaning it doesn't care what the plant is or whether or not it's a "good" or "bad" one, it just kills it. So, users need to know HOW to use it.

If you ever have any questions about a herbicide, etc. go to the following website and type in the product name. You'll get the LABEL and the MSDS sheet (the Material Safey Data Sheet) which will tell you how toxic it is, what it should be used for and how, and all of the environmental test results that were conducted (with the associated results) for it to be registered as "okay" by the EPA. The website is:

http://www.cdms.net/manuf/manuf.asp

Hope this helps. Keep those Bbird stories and sightings coming. The Neo-trops are coming... I saw and heard to Louisiana waterthrushes while out today!
--J

Jimmy Dodson
Asst Forest Manager -- NCSU Dept of Forestry & Environmental Resources Raleigh, NC rocks_and_flies"at"hotmail.com

On Thu 24 Mar 2005 at 22:18, Sheila Rogers <sheilarogers"at"charter.net> wrote, in part:
> ...
> What's the difference with Pesticides & Herbicides:(?

Pesticides: kill animal pests. Insecticides kill insects, Bluebird food. If ingested, some can also kill Bluebirds and children. DeCon kills rats and mice, raptor food. A lot of Purple Martin landlords (and probably quite a few
Bluebirders) use a specific insecticide, 5% Sevin powder, to treat (or prevent) infestations of mites and blow fly larvae. A heavy infestation of either can kill nestlings.
Sevin is approved for use around poultry. Please, I do _NOT_ want to start a threat about this. It's a choice each landlord makes.

Herbicides: kill plants. RoundUp is a 'nonspecific'
herbicide that kills everything that's green. It's usually used along fence lines and sidewalks and such. Weed-B-Gone is an example of a specific herbicide; it kills only broad leaf plants like dandylions and clover ... and your Azaleas if a mist of it drifts over in a breeze. Although RoundUp is relatively safe if used properly, it is hyper-toxic to water plants and desirable fish.

> I will say, I have a man spray every month last year, he tells me to
> keep the dogs in the house for and HOUR...to dry out the ground? Now
> I'm scared.....Birds Don't know this:(

Sheila, try to find out exactly what he's using. Then you can either consult the Ortho Guide, on-line resources or ask here about it. Used properly, the benefits of most pesticides and herbicides outweigh the potential hazards.

I spray my fruit trees with fungicides or I'd lose them to Red Cedar Fungus. My only alternatives are eliminating all cedar trees for half a mile (impossible) or having my apple trees produce poorly & eventually die (undesirable).
The copper-based spray is toxic if ingested and dogs will lick it off their paws and legs so they can't be allowed under the trees for a while. I don't lick myself and I shower after spraying, so I don't have a problem. Birds avoid the trees for a day, although I sacrificed harvest from 2 trees last year; one held a Cardinal nest and the other a Goldfinch nest.

My fruit trees and gardens are magnets for insects, many of which are either beneficial or harmless. I avoid use of insecticides whenever possible and I use specific rather than general insecticides when I feel compelled to save a crop (Sevin around the base of gourds and squash due to squash vine borers, for example). My insectivore birds (plus snakes, toads, spiders and beneficial insects) are my primary defense against undesirable insects and they've done a great job for 25+ years now.

If your neighbor is using a nonspecific insecticide, you might try telling him how many insects are consumed by birds... birds that he will drive away if he kills all the food needed by those birds. Maybe you can convert him to birding?

Good luck and take care,

R J 'Tree' Greenwood
Catlett VA

From: Linda [mailto:linyl"at"alltel.net]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: weed killers--effects on insects eaten by bluebirds

I'm curious about the environmental effects of using weed killers. For the past 8 years, I have been adament about not using weed killers on our property. My husband argues that they are safe, but one has to wonder if it kills weeds, would the birds eat insects that have absorbed the weed killer, thereby causing ill effects? Your input would be greatly appreciated. By the way, the bluebirds in the terracotta house in the woods are still actively using the house--cold weather and all. Linda in NW GA

From: Christy [mailto:ke4fej1"at"email.msn.com]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: weed killers--effects on insects eaten by bluebirds

My personal opinion... I believe they hurt. I had one Monitor who had 5 healthy babies..the lawn care company came out, and the next day she had 5 dead babies. No snake, no raccoon, ...heat... possibly but... in all my 500 nestings and attempts I have never heard of that scenario again. No one else that I know of used a lawn service when there was a nesting.

Think about it... if they tell humans not to walk on freshly sprayed grass for over 24 hours... just think how long a not eating sign might be up. I bet those who do like to eat Dandelions...would be told to never eat them if sprayed.....Birds don't read written signs..maybe they are smart enough to leave...most of what we humans poison?

Christy Sarasota, FL

From: ?
Sent: April 26, 2005
RE: weed killers -- effects on insects eaten by bluebirds

I do know that fertilizers are incredibly lethal (temporarily, before they soak into the soil). They typically use some form of nitrogen source, which is probably not ammonia (NH4+), but probably some nitrate (NO3) compound. Either way, my father had a scheduled fertilizer service while some rabbits were nesting near their lawn. Apparently, my dad found all the bunnies dead and only the mother survived, perhaps from her sheer size, or perhaps she realized. Either way, it is a real possibility.

If you would like to try an alternative weed killer, especially on concrete areas, I am told that boiling water is quite effective.
However, it is obviously not discriminatory - any plants that are exposed to the hot water will suffer or die, so be careful if you try that. Other than possibly killing some local worms or other creatures in the vicinity, it's probably the environmentally safest way to control weeds.

Kathy Haines
Central Ohio

From: Bernie Daniel [mailto:bdaniel"at"cinci.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: weed killers--effects on insects eaten by bluebirds

Linda,

There is no ONE answer to your question. However, herbicides are by intention designed to interfere with plant growth processes. Also by design, these compounds are directed to metabolic process in plants that are not analogous to processes in animal species. Thus, most modern day, approved (by EPA) herbicides have low to very low toxicity to vertebrates.

Keep in mind nothing is totally non-toxic -- at very high doses pure water is toxic - kills by diluting electrolytes in the blood. Often, in undeveloped countries human babies die each year from mothers trying to "stretch" the formula by diluting down -- very sad).

But to be released herbicides must undergo many levels of toxicity testing and compliance verifications at the USEPA Office of Pesticide and Toxic Substances. If there is an plausible possibility of risk to non-target species -- esp. animals a whole new level of assurances/compliances are required. It is a very involved and complex process = very expensive too. Careful consideration of enhances sensitivity of effects on neo-natal animals is also part of this approval process.

Bottom-line -- used as directed, modern herbicides are unlikely to result in harm to your birds. The toxicity is low (by design) and the routes of exposure are not likely. Keep in mind SOME herbicides may NOT be recommended for SOME uses -- those who do not follow the guidelines negate the compliance testing and assurances.

Also it is worth remembering that nothing is totally "safe" -- getting out of bed has been know to trigger strokes from the pressure change -- but we all still get up -- usually.

A nightmare scenario can be imagined for all uses of all chemicals but I believe (most believe?) we must balance risk and benefits.

One thing we have all learned in field environmental regulation (both regulators and regulated) is that we must deal with REAL risks not imagined ones and we must be able to calculate (estimate) benefits to do that.

Over regulation and overuse of the "precautionary" principle are prohibitively expensive and can be as dangerous (or more dangerous in some specific cases) than under-regulation.

In the 1960's everyone thought that the answer was to always error on the side of caution. Today we realize that while there is still merit to that concept -- in principle and in the cases of total lack of information -- we must ever strive to base our decisions on facts and knowledge.

In most cases, properly used herbicides do not present an unacceptable (by most standards) risk to wildlife. That is not to say that everyone's standards are the same -- so some consider them unacceptable no matter what.

Those people are usually not in the business of try to make a living raising food etc. for the rest of us.

I hope that helps.

BTW - that is not to say herbicides have NO consequences to wildlife. You could imagine habitat - ctitical plants -- being destroyed by a herbicide (or improper use of a herbicide most likely) resulting in a negative effect to wildlife involved but that is not a toxicity issue per se.

Bernie Daniel,Ph.D.
Environmental Scientist

From: Bernie Daniel [mailto:bdaniel"at"cinci.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: weed killers--effects on insects eaten by bluebirds

Christy -- comment on your comment:

>>I had one Monitor who had 5 healthy babies..the lawn care company came out, and the next day she had 5 dead babies. No snake, no raccoon, ...heat... possibly but... <<


Of course at this point no one can say for sure what cause that particular clutch to fail.

But it is worth noting that I have had (over the years) several clutches fail -- in exactly the same manner on a trail that is at least a mile from any place likely to get any kind of pesticides.

Note the if the entire clutch fails then you would have to argue that all chicks received comparable doses of the same toxin right?

But each chick gets separate food items from the parents.

Therefore, unless the Bluebird parents were in a situation where everything they brought back to the nest was contaminated to the point of being lethally toxic you would not have all the chicks dying -- or at least not all at the same time. So this does not sound on the face of it (obviously more details are needed) like death due to toxic ingestion.

In any case, I would doubt it was a recommended lawn chemical that would have been the culprit in this case -- but that is not to say that something else was happening in that area (near the nest). But I would guess that this is not a toxicity situation.

As I write this it occurs to me that I would write up a check list of some things to look for to help sort out or detect whether a chick death is due to toxicity as contrasted to some other cause. So I will do that one of these days.

Bernie

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Bernie did a good job answering this complex question. Young animals and young birds often die as a group even in sterile conditions or as pets. Our family raised rabbits when I was young and we had 700 at a time and mother rabbits are notorious for killing all of their young if they get really frightened.

Whenever you see a "Chem-Lawn" or homeowner or a commercial applicator applying ANY spray or granular substance to the environment you have the right to go up and ask them what they are applying. Commercial applicators are required to have their state license # displayed on the sides of their trucks in Texas and will have MSDS sheets on hand for what they are applying and you at least know if they are applying herbicides, fungicides, fertilizer, pesticides, sawdust or manure:-)) It is nice to know what types of chemicals and the actual name of the chemical that is being applied.

Ask your city what type chemicals they will apply this year and in what quaintly they will buy them.

Where you run into problems with chemicals is when they create their own chemicals by mixing one, two or three herbicides in a single mixture or they also add insecticides on top of fungicides or fertilizers as now some of these different chemicals begin reacting with each other creating different compounds that have NOT been tested. Our county agents in the past recommended mixing "Round-up (a direct contact weed killer), 2-4-D (broad leafed weed killer) and diesel fuel as a surfactant and carrier for the weed killers. In the 1980's companies contracted by the Texas Highway Department routinely mixed diesel fuel in with a blend of weed killers to kill all of the weeds around highway signs and road sides with one spray application.

Cruise the aisles at Wal-Mart and see what chemicals anyone can buy in Weed and Feed fertilizers and what pesticides are offered. KK

Some of my neighbors have lawn services come to spray their lawns and foundations on a regular basis. We have a lot of weeds and houses here are routinely infested with ants, so there is a lot of business for these companies.

We tried to use no herbicides for several seasons, but the weeds grow more quickly than we can dig them, so we compromised and spray once in the spring (selectively), before the birds begin to nest. After that, I have a full time job in the garden with my weed digger. If we have to use a pesticide, we use something like Safer, or a strong blast of water.

One of the vineyards in Sonoma Valley uses steam to kill weeds; they were the first ones to introduce the idea to me. I just ordered a steamer to clean the tile in my home, and I will try using it in the garden too. It hasn't arrived as yet, but I expect it any day now.

Barbara in Cloverdale, CA

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: weed killers--effects on insects eaten by bluebirds

Hmm, tough topic. I’d say it depends on a lot of different factors: the type of chemical (constituents, whether it is an insecticide or herbicide, etc., mode of action,), when it was used (e.g., some affect reproduction, some development, some affect adults), how it was applied (e.g., systemic vs. aerial, spot application vs. broadcast), persistence, chemodymanics (when it breaks down, what does it turn into), exposure (e.g., how much of it is consumed), etc. etc. etc.

I’d be MOST concerned about INSECTICIDES and other chemicals designed to attack nervous systems, etc. Weeds and bugs don’t have the same metabolisms.

The conservative approach – not using pesticides around nestboxes (and not inside boxes either!) is probably the safest.

I think Integrated Pest Management (which is harder to do) that reduces pesticide use is the way to go when pesticides will be used.
"Integrated Pest Management is the coordinated use of pest and environmental information along with available pest control methods, including cultural, biological, genetic and chemical methods, to prevent unacceptable levels of pest damage by the most economical means, and with the least possible hazard to people, property, and the environment".

see http://www.csrees.usda.gov/newsroom/impacts/00index/ipm.htm or http://www.ipmalmanac.com/ for more info.

Bet from CT

From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:53 PMty
Subject: Re: Herbicides

Dear Barbara and Friends,

Barbara hits on some key points here as weed spraying before our native cavity nesters return from south of the border is a safer approach for those that are concerned about herbicides.

We do our spraying (Roundup) when weeds are very young and full of moisture. When weeds are full of moisture their roots are plumped up with water, all the way to the fine minuet hairs of the root system. Hitting weeds early kills the weeds all the way down to the root system thus helping to keep your weeds in check. Delayed spraying will kill weeds, but weeds will return as the root system was not killed off completely.

Steaming your weeds works, but does nothing about the root system of the weed so it will spring back. However, if you keep steaming your weeds, you will eventually get them under control.

I would suggest for those that have small yards that boiled or hot water works very good on weeds too. You can do this by boiling water on your stove top or hooking up a hose to your hot water heater (NOTE: BE SURE TO WEAR THICK GLOVES WHEN USING A HOSE TO WATER HEATER APPLICATION.) Just dose the weeds with hot water and they will an die. Again, the roots will be intact, so weeds will return.

The big problems with herbicidal control companies is yes they do use herbicides (like Roundup) which by themselves are not a big problem, but they add pre emergence that can be an issue and in some cases will apply insecticides which we know are a issue. Ask an find out what your local herbicidal control companies are using.

The other side to this weed topic is geography. Out here in California we can deal with weeds all year long, but points east where snow covers weeds you have to acts fast to deal with your weeds before nature returns to full swing.

Again regardless if you use herbicides, steam, or boiled water, hit your weeds early before they become a nuisance.

... John Schuster

I use vinegar around the poles.

Evelyn

Kathy -- Interesting idea ..But, just to be clear -- fertilizers are not
weed killers (herbicides). Just pointing that out so as to avoid confusion.

But also consider that while boiling water may kill some small surface
weeds -- it might not kill a deep rooted plant like a dandelion and I'd sure
hate to treat my entire lawn with boiling water -- Yikes!! (<:

Benrie

I agree with the use of vinegar. A good friend of mine has a lawn service. While taking classes to get his license, the use of white vinegar was recommended to "pump up" the herbicide for a faster or "hotter" weed kill.

Sheryl Bassi
Leland, MS

I was wondering........if you use flea/tick yard control.......can that harm
other insects and birds?

-Melissa in Columbus

It would likely depend on the chemical you used. The bluebirds would ingest it in the bugs they eat.

I have found if you use Frontline Plus on your animals you don't need anything on your yard. Haven't had a flea on any ofmy dogs for many years, ever since I started using it once a month. If they get ticks on them, after a day or so the dead tick falls off.

I think better to treat this way than to spray everything.

Marilyn

The notice below was posted tonight on TexBirds by Winnie Burkett of Houston
Audubon. Notice that Eastern Bluebirds are among the birds killed by
carbofuran.
Pauline Tom
Mountain City (no mountains) T

The notice below was posted tonight on TexBirds by Winnie Burkett of Houston Audubon. Notice that Eastern Bluebirds are among the birds killed by carbofuran.
Pauline Tom
Mountain City (no mountains) TX

As soon as this Thursday, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is expected to rule on the fate of carbofuran one of the most deadly pesticides to birds and one which also poses significant human health risks.

Call or email EPA official James Guilford at 202-564-2902 or gulliford.jim"at"epa.gov and encourage him to protect birds, fish and mammals by immediately banning carbofuran.
All you have to do is deliver a simple message:

"Hello, my name is [YOUR NAME] and I live in [YOUR STATE]. I'm calling to urge you to prevent needless bird deaths by doing everything in your power to ban the pesticide carbofuran."

Why should you be concerned about carbofuran? This pesticide is extremely toxic to birds. In fact, just one granule of carbofuran is enough to kill a songbird. Its liquid format is equally deadly.

Carbofuran has killed millions of birds, including hundreds of bald eagles and thousands of waterfowl. Birds from more than 100 other species have also been killed, including eastern bluebirds, northern pintails, American robins, owls, swallows, grackles, killdeer and kestrels.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has told EPA for decades that carbofuran poses an unreasonable hazard to birds. Yet EPA has failed to act, even after Fish and Wildlife Service biologists have stated, "There are no known circumstances under which carbofuran can be used without killing birds."

Carbofuran doesn't kill just birds. It can contaminate water and kill fish and mammals that ingest contaminated prey.

There is no reason to be using this toxic pesticide when safer alternatives exist.

The EPA must decide whether to allow the continued use of carbofuran by this Thursday (August 3rd), so please take action right away.

Winnie Burkett

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