Perches on Nestboxes

Also see Passive House Sparrow Control

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Perches on Bluebird nestboxes: OK back in the 1960's I began building
nestboxes and all of them had wood dowel perches on them. I was really poor
as a kid but I bought a box of 1,000- 1/4" diameter by 5" long "meat stakes"
to use on my future swarm of nestboxes.

Every box I built I drove a meat stake in a small pilot hole under the
entrance hole for the birds to land on. For fifteen years and hundreds and
hundreds of nestboxes I happily added perches.

Then a newsletter came from WE.G. Duncan in the early 70's with an article
from someone he copied that if you did not put a perch on the nestbox that
House sparrows WOULD NOT use your nestbox. Larry Zeleny told me to quit
using perches in the mid 70's and his book states not to use perches, nearly
everyone repeats this statement but we ALL still get House Sparrow using
nestboxes without perches....

You know after 30 generations of birds we now have different competition
between Tree Swallows and Bluebirds and sparrows. House Sparrows have no
trouble defending a bluebird box without a perch, people report more
aggressive bluebirds now...What IF some of us conducted controlled
experiments with paired nestboxes or those using a "pod" of three or four
nestboxes and Heaven forbid we added a perch to one nestbox in a pair to see
if under new experiments today's bluebirds MIGHT be able to compete against
the other birds BETTER with a perch than without a perch.

Maybe if Bluebirds and Sparrows fought over the perch outside the nestbox
instead of inside the nestbox we might actually save more adult bluebirds
that seem to always get killed in a fight inside a nestbox.

What if on two holed nestboxes you added a perch to one hole to see which
species used which hole?

Have you watched bluebirds trying to feed young birds in a box with smooth
planed lumber? Have you watched them trying to approach a nestbox and land
on a smooth front when the wind is blowing 25 to 40 MPH? Before you go
ballistic, on smooth fronted nestboxes go look VERY closely at the fronts of
the nestboxes and notice the stains and scratches on the box where the birds
feet have slipped HUNDREDS of times as they build their nests and feed their
young and make thousands of trips in and out of the nestbox during one
nesting attempt. You should see a dirty, upside down V pointing up towards
the entrance hole.

Inspect your nestbox fronts, think about this for a few days, maybe video
tape the adults feeding on a windy rainy day and then add your two cents to
these thoughts this weekend:-)) When some of you cool down. Anyway I found
my old box of meat stakes in my attic this past week. I DON"T ever throw any
potential nestbox material away:-)) You could use 4" long sheet rock screws
as a temporary perch on these experimental nestboxes. Slide a 3&1/2" piece
of small diameter plastic tubing over the threads on the screw giving the
birds a smooth plastic coated perch to land on. KK

From: PTom [mailto:ptom"at"austin.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: Add a perch? .... maybe ridges?

Keith Kridler suggests trying some nestboxes with perches - even though
Larry Zeleny said, "Don't add a perch!!"

You go, Keith!!!!! Hurray! Hurray!!

It seems many practices in bluebird conservation were not built upon
scientific study. Rather, we learn as we go ... when we question "standard"
practices.

High-resolution photos of birds at nestbox holes reveal that a bird on a
smooth pine nestbox seems to struggle to get a "toe-hold" - on "tip toes".
A bird on a nestbox with a "Heat Shield" (plywood with 1/2" spacer added to
exterior surfaces for airflow) easily perches on the Heatshield. A bird on
rough cedar obtains a foothold of sorts.

It looks like the Creator designed the bluebird for natural cavities ...
with rough bark.

I've considered adding "ridges" on the exterior beneath the hole (the sort
that are added on the interior for Tree Swallow nestlings) on some of my
smooth pine nestboxes with no activity.

I'll also accept the suggestion of my mentor and add some perches!

Pauline Tom
Mountain City (no mountains) TX

Just what we need here -- another can of worms! ;-) !!

I was under the impression that perches on bluebird nest boxes make predation by larger birds, i.e. blue jays, crows, etc., easier.

Just from personal observation, bluebirds attempting to use the 2" perches on my seed feeders do an awkward balancing act while turning to access the feeder hole. OTOH, they seem to have no problem clinging to the entrance hole while feeding nestlings.

In fact, I've seen them cling to the entrance of a nestbox for as long as a half hour with no problem. I noticed this behavior by a pair of EABLs -- each at the entrance of a different box -- at dusk just before roosting in a nearby tree. I assumed the time they were preventing Downey's roosting the nestboxes as they had all winter.

Another question comes to mind: Wouldn't a perch below the entrance be a long reach for parent birds servicing nestlings deep within a box? Seems I'm missing something here, but maybe ridges would work better than a smooth plastic or metal perch below the hole -- if indeed anything were added.... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" :-)

BTW, I think the BHNU eggs have hatched, but it's been much too cold and windy to check....

MJ

Mary Jane Shearer; Tucker, GA

From: Kate Arnold [mailto:koscharn"at"cox.net]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Add a perch? .... maybe ridges?

I agree with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" philosophy, but many on the list ARE complaining about not attracting bluebirds, problems with house sparrows, bluebirds outnumbered by other species, etc.

Re-examining old assumptions from time to time is not a bad idea. The old unventilated nestboxes, mounted on trees, some made of cardboard were accepted and even promoted by knowledgeable people for awhile, but observations and questioning of the assumptions has made our nestboxes and mounting systems safer, and presumably more comfortable for the birds.

Keith's question of whether a parent would have an easier time defending a box from a perch is a valid one, since a bluebird caught inside by a house sparrow doesn't have a chance and many have observed bluebirds winning a struggle outside the nestbox.

Some of our assumptions about perches may not necessarily be based on facts.
We "assume" that perches would help larger birds, but on the other hand, if it's a longer reach for the parents, it's a longer reach for the larger birds :-))

If someone adds a perch to a nestbox or two, but leaves other "perchless"
nestboxes available, they are in a position to observe which is "preferred", whether bluebirds can or do defend the nestbox from the perch, whether larger birds take advantage of the perch, and of course they can act accordingly, removing the perch again if it turns out that Larry Zeleny was right! The key is to keep perchless boxes available, since after all our discussions, bluebirds may not like them anyway!

Kate Arnold
Paris, TX, 100 mi NE of Dallas

Then, why use smooth pine lumber to begin with? Just use rough-sawn... and
leave the planed stuff alone. That solves both the issues of perches and of
needing ridges.

Jimmy Dodson
Asst Forest Manager -- NCSU Dept of Forestry
NCSU Hill Forest

Hi Kate,
From: "Kate Arnold"

> I agree with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" philosophy, but
> many on the list ARE complaining about not attracting bluebirds,
> problems with house sparrows, bluebirds outnumbered by other species, etc.

That's my point. Since my nest boxes attract bluebirds, I see no reason for adding a perch to "fix" it because contrary to what KK wrote, "all" of us don't have a HOSP problem -- at least, not so far.
And, I've never seen a natural cavity with a perch.

> Re-examining old assumptions from time to time is not a bad idea. The
> old ...

True, but wouldn't it be better to test this theory before floating it as a suggestion of what *might* work?

> ...
> Some of our assumptions about perches may not necessarily be based on facts.

Surely NABS's recommendation to omit perches from nest boxes is based on something more than mere conjecture, or do we have another "paint vs. soap" issue brewing here in which something is just "assumed" to be factual?

> We "assume" that perches would help larger birds, but on the other
> hand, if it's a longer reach for the parents, it's a longer reach for
> the larger birds :-))

Nope! A larger bird has a longer reach -- and usually a longer, stronger beak! :-) !

> If someone adds a perch to a nestbox or two, but leaves other "perchless"
> nestboxes available, they are in a position to observe which is
> "preferred", whether bluebirds can or do defend the nestbox from the
> perch, whether larger birds take advantage of the perch, and of course
> they can act accordingly, removing the perch again if it turns out
> that Larry Zeleny was right! The key is to keep perchless boxes
> available, since after all our discussions, bluebirds may not like them anyway!

OK, you add test perches using scientific method, whatever that would be, and let us know the results. :-) !!
Me, for now I'm "perchless" in Georgia! ;-) !!

MJ

Mary Jane Shearer; Tucker, GA

The stuff "at" the hardware store was rough-sawn before someone put it through a planer. May take a little bit more effort, but see if a local mill would sell you un-planed lumber for your boxes, or see if someone has a small portable mill they use as a "hobby". A portable mill makes un-planed product that has to be put through a planer to finish it.

Just going to take a little planning and comm, that's all. Not as quick as a Lowes, HDepot, or local hardware store, but it solves the problem.

Just a thought. --J

Jimmy Dodson

I agree, Jimmy. I believe many tend to use smooth lumber in order to make nestboxes more aesthetically pleasing to our own eyes, but, let's face it, the blues don't care!

This past weekend, several LBBS members gathered at Hodges Gardens, LA, to rehab the trail established there many years ago by Dr. Shirl Brunell. We replaced 21 very old, top-opening boxes with front-opening boxes made of rough-cut cypress. The birds didn't seem to mind the old boxes, however, as many of them were occupied with either bluebirds or chickadees busy raising new families. We also installed predator guards, and have a program in place to keep the trail monitored. The rough-cut cypress makes a long-lasting, durable nestbox that is quite attractive.

For those who do not know, Hodges Gardens is one of Louisiana's best kept secrets. Located in the west central part of the state near Toledo Bend Reservoir, Hodges Gardens are a wonderland of local flora and fauna. It's well worth a visit for anyone who should find themselves in the area.

Sheryl Cooper Bassi
Leland, MS
Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society

It would probably be easier to just take a rasp and run it over the
front a few times. You don't need the whole house to be rough, just the
front.

Lynn near Bernville PA

Lynn --

That would work as well, especially for those smooth boxes already in place and in use. But when time to put up new ones, if you can get rough-sawn, why not at least put it on the entrance side. Many times, rough-sawn is cheaper (from a cost standpoint) than finished lumber.

Good suggestion. Thanks. A point I didn't consider initially --J

Jimmy Dodson
Asst Forest Manager -- NCSU Dept of Forestry
NCSU Hill Forest

The only perch I have is in the LBBS Newsletter, president's section. ("From
The Perch")

I've read the perch attracts birds and to me, having another bird come sit on the perch while the egg laying, incubating, hatching, trying to fledge does not make sense. The male feeds the female while incubating and I would hate to think the pair would have to sit and wait until a HOSP left off the
perch to feed the babies.

I don't feel the need to try this.

Evelyn Cooper
Delhi, LA

Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif.

Here's my web page showing exterior toe-hold shapes I use (scroll 3/4 down:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lviolett/construction.html

Don't have time right now to debate anyone's perception/approval or necessity of adding exterior toeholds right now. We do things differently here on the west coast . . . by observation and not by the book.

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:20 AM
Subject: perches - questioning conventional wisdom

A young bride is preparing pot roast for dinner. Her husband watches as she carefully cuts off each end the roast before putting it in the roasting pan and placing it in the oven.
“Why did you cut the ends off the roast?” he asks.
“I don’t know,” she replies, “that’s the way my mother taught me.”
The next time the young woman talks to her mother, she asks about trimming the ends off the pot roast.
“I don’t know why,” her mother answers, “but that’s how your grandmother always did it.”
On a visit to her grandmother, the young woman asks about the pot roast.
“Oh,” replies the grandmother, “I had to do that because my roasting pan was too small.”

*****

I’ve always liked that story because it reminds us to continually question and ask why. That’s how thinking evolves. In bluebirding, we tend to rely on conventional wisdom because we don’t want to have to learn the hard way – we want to learn from the mistakes and successes of others, which is a good thing!

I think the saying “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” refers to messing with something that works and maybe ending up breaking it, or wasting time fiddling with something that is just fine. But another variation of the saying is “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, unless you can make it better.” Otherwise, we’d only have the NABS style box to pick from – instead we have Peterson’s, Gilbertsons, Gilwood, Slot boxes, etc. etc. etc. Sometimes we ask a question about one topic that gets us thinking about something else and eventually coming up with a better way.

In the case of Larry Zeleny, I assumed his recommendation about not using perches was based on observation. I didn’t know that he said house sparrows (HOSP) would NOT use a nestbox with a perch – I thought it was believed that they were LESS LIKELY to use a box with a perch. At least in his 1976 book The Bluebird, How You Can Help Its Fight for Survival (one of my faves) he says “Bluebirds have no need for perches and one should not be attached to their nesting boxes, since house sparrows find them quite useful in maintaining possession of boxes they have once managed to occupy.”

The point about natural nesting cavities in trees not have a perch is a good one, although they also tend to have deeper holes that might offer a better foothold, and bark that also offers some purchase. One of the most attractive looking boxes I’ve ever seen had the front piece made out of a rounded piece of wood that still had the bark on it. I do wonder how long the bark would stay on after the wood has been cut.

I am trying out a Rubicon box made out of thick recycled plastic http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=RUB-2TH100IH It is pricey, but looks like it would last forever. However, I wonder if birds will have trouble feeding from it. It’s not being used so far this season.

If research hasn’t been done to test conventional wisdom, I think it’s worth looking at. Bluebird monitors with trails offer a wealth of opportunities to learn. Maybe when we’re testing one thing, we’ll come up with a solution to another problem. That’s how many great inventions came about.
Bet from CT

I cut a small groove about 3/8" underneath the entrance hole and right beneath that glue on a short narrow strip of popsicle stick (cut stick in half both lengthways and width). This does not allow a house sparrow or starling to "perch" at the entrance but does help the parents on their way in. Considering the amount of daily feeding trips the parents make I think it helps them somewhat.

....

Steve Hewlett
Framingham, MA

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: perches and toeholds for nestboxes

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Your mother probably told you "If you TOUCH that bird nest or that baby bird the parents will abandon them and the nest!" This has been repeated so long it sounds like it is based on firm scientific research.

"If you put a perch on your nestbox other species of birds will use the perch to keep away the bluebirds!" I have heard this so many times and it is often quoted also as "research shows that if you add a perch" ETC. But you know that I have collected bluebird articles for forty years and the ONLY reference I can find on "research" dates back to a single letter a man wrote to William Duncan and he published in his bluebird newsletter back in the 1970's. The gist of the letter was that this man removed the perches from his nestboxes and he went a WHOLE nesting season in his yard without an English Sparrow using his nestboxes. They ended the letter by saying that "If you remove the perches from your nestboxes that you will have no English Sparrows nesting in your bluebird houses." If this is the "research" that we keep quoting then it is as well done as MANY other House Sparrow myths. The last time I looked House Sparrows seem to have no trouble entering nestboxes without perches and they seem to be able to hold about any nestbox they REALLY want to use!

Robert Baron mentioned that in as little as a 20 year span finches on the islands adapted to changes in their environment. House Sparrows seem to adapt to changes in two or three years at the most to changes in nestbox styles, new bird seed ETC.

We tend to blame "millet" a simple grass seed for the proliferation of House Sparrows. Back in the 1850's before millet was grown and shipped in the USA they blamed wheat, then oats became more popular in the 1870's for horse & mule feed and English Sparrow food. There are thousands of species of weed seeds that these birds will eat!

Jack Dodson mentions using a variety of nestboxes and having NO House Sparrows and he had a GREAT selection of native birds nesting. I expect competition for nestboxes to change his fledge numbers of the different species over the next 6 years or so. I expect him to get nesting House Sparrows next year:-))

Noel Guards and 4" diameter PVC entrance hole raccoon guards: OK these actually provide not only a great landing perch for one legged birds they should also provide the ultimate guarding platform for "competing species"
to hold the nestbox from an attacking bluebird. Especially the Noel Guard will allow the House Sparrows to stand in the protection of the wire entrance hole guard and be able to see the bluebirds approaching from ANY angle but ONLY have to defend the small opening and the sparrows would have great traction by gripping the wire bottom while the poor bluebirds would still be hovering trying to land! Hundreds of thousands of the Noel guards have been used and are still being used and I have NEVER read that House Sparrows "Prefer" nestboxes with this type guard/landing perch on these nestboxes!

I would at least like to read the research paper showing that perches hurt the chances of nesting bluebirds. See who did the research and the location of the tests and how many years they based this on and if there is actually film footage showing where bluebirds are driving out a nesting pair of House Sparrows from their nest in boxes without perches!

Back in the 1960's and early 1970's ALL of the wood nestboxes my dad and I made had 1/4" wood dowel perches or we nailed a 3/4"X3/4" wood strip/ledge/toehold under the hole. Yes when sparrows were using these nestboxes the male often sang while standing on this perch. It made it easy to shoot the sparrows rather than them zipping into a box without a perch.
When I installed thousands of nestboxes without perches the male sparrows either sang from the roof of the nestbox or they sing while sitting right in the entrance hole looking out and they REALLY prevent other birds from taking over their nestbox while wedged in the entrance hole!

I think the "no wood perch on nestboxes" actually is a huge advantage to the nestbox builders who ship and display nestboxes. These perches get broken in shipping and shippers would have to send a new dowel/perch to people who open the box and find these "broken nestboxes." I also saw over the years that woodpeckers HATE a perch under an entrance hole as the first thing they and squirrels do is "chew off" this stick blocking them from getting to the entrance hole. The wood dowel perch is probably dangerous to young kids who might poke an eye while trying to look in the entrance hole to see what is in the box.

Anyway if you have dozens or hundreds of nestboxes up you might want to experiment with some this coming year and see what your "research" can come up with. KK

From: Cher [mailto:bluelist"at"localnet.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: perches and toeholds for nestboxes

Keith,

Thanks for pointing out the difference between documented research and "traditional wisdom", or "widely accepted theory". Just because something is widely accepted doesn't mean it's correct. We should be open to experimentation and re-experimentation as the environment changes. It may be time for some "old and moldy" ideas to be swept away along with the cobwebs to make way for adaptability. We must become Borg!

As I've mentioned before, and as the last paragraph of your post implies, this is more difficult for Backyard Bluebirders than for monitors with many boxes, but those of us who are Backyarders could benefit from the data collected by those who have more nestboxes to experiment with. We'll be watching and waiting . . .

Cher

From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 4:46 PM
Subject: Kerfs, w. Bluebird

BLUEBIRD-L,

If you will type my name in your Searchbox, and then hit "Identification Center" (# 6?) you'll find my picture of a female Bluebird at the entrance hole of one of my bozes. Although the entrance block is well-kerfed, she does not appear to be using the kerfs. This doesn't prove that she *never* uses them, but she's not in this instance.
All it proves is that she *can* enter without using her "kerf ladder."

Bruce Burdett

If you consider "natural habitat", some of the actual cavities that are usually used by these birds will have a perch and some won't. The perch would be a stick, or a dead branch etc., but generally, the grip is provided by the rough bark. Has anyone thought of asking their Bluebirds how they feel about it?LOL

John EH!

BEST OF BLUEBIRD_L CLASSIFIEDS HOME | Audubon Society of Omaha | The Bluebird Box | Bluebird FAQs | Search | Contact me

All material was originally posted on the Bluebird_L or Bluebird mailing list, and has been reposted here with slight modifications to make the posts more readable in an HTML format.  In cases in which quoted material has been deleted to save space, this is indicated by an ellipsis (...)

For more information about Bluebird_L, check out http://www.cit.corn.edu/cit-pubs/email/using-lists/index.htm. If you wish to contact the author of a post, you will need to edit the e-mail address, replacing "at" with the "at" symbol (above the number 2 on your keyboard). (This change was made to discourage spammers.)

If you are the author of a posting and would like to see a particular post (or posts) removed from these web pages, please contact me with the web page address, title of post, and date and time of the post(s), and I will remove whatever material you like.  If you have a different opinion from one posted here, you need not contact me, as often I will have a different opinion too. The intent is to try and provide both sides to the issues facing bluebirders, and to do so in an impartial and objective manner.

If you have problems, encounter broken links (unless they are within an e-mail thread, as I do not maintain those links), or have suggestions on how the site can be improved to make it more useful, please contact the Best of Bluebird-L Classifieds webmaster. 

Website design by Chimalis