Miscellaneous Problems/Solutions for the Bluebirder (Part 1)

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website:  Predators and Problems On The Bluebird Trail

HELP NEEDED!!!

I FINALLY got 2 bluebirds who built a nest in my box! However, tree sparrows have been seen "bombing down" through our yard lately. I also noticed a house wren INSIDE the house with the another "keeping watch" on top of the box . Soon after that, it appeared that some birds (unknown if it was the bluebirds) "added to the top of the nest, making a hole in the nest (lining up with the hole in the box almost like a hood). The bluebirds had not laid any eggs yet, by the way.

My dilemna......do I destroy that entire nest, figuring that the "wrong birds" added on or should I leave it to see if it was the bluebirds that added on (even though I haven't seen them go in at all since). In fact, I haven't seen the bluebirds often at all since the 3-4 days that these events occured.

I have been trying for FIVE years to get bluebirds, and I DESPERATELY need your advice.

Thanks SO much,

Kenny Hicks
Connecticut

To try to help...

I have some experience with these woodland nesting species. I'll try to get some digital pics for examples before the weekend is over from a couple of friends who have cameras. I know that everyone can't access the pics but I will do what I can. Be sure to check your Cornell CNBN book for information on the various species in question.

I saw the question (from David) about nesting material--the nest with moss
at the base; I also saw the response (from Ted) that it could be a
chickadee. Here in CA, the Oak Titmouse constructs a nest that sounds like
the chickadee nest that Ted described: moss at base w/ cup made of hair.
What kind of nest does the Tufted Titmouse build?

A tufted titmouse builds a nest consisting of dried leaves, moss, dried grass. I've worked with them for 4 years and have aided in DNA research helping a grad student from OSU for 2 years. I have several nests going right now. No eggs yet but nest and cup complete. Male singing his head off last night. I was training an 8th grade girl how to monitor her 20 box trail at a middle school and both of these boxes are on her trail as well as bluebirds.

I also have carolina wrens nesting just down from the titmice and their nest is LOTS of dried leaves and some dried grass and the back is higher instead of level. They pack them pretty well. This nest is just down from the titmice nest. That nest is ready for eggs and he was singing too. This is my 3rd nest of carolina wrens in a nestbox in 2 years. Been watching the birds nest for 4 years. Also had them nest in a gourd last year. They nest twice a season. Dick Tuttle has young in a box on his porch in Delaware Ohio.

Carolina chickadees have lots of moss, level with hair of plant down cup in which they will hide the eggs when necessary. I have many of these building, laying and incubating as we speak. Watch out because I had a lot of problems last year with bumble bees getting into the bottom of the moss nests of chickdees and titmice. The blumble bees actually chased off incubating birds.

I have been helping to coordinate research with OSU and OWU for the past several years on the various species of cavity nesting birds. Just by having so many birds use the nestboxes opens up many opportunities to learn.  Banding also gives a delightful dimension to the field work. Exciting to know we are helping to teach others of the importance of conservation. Let me know if I can be of further help.

Azure trails...
Darlene Sillick
Columbus, Ohio
NABS ed chair, OBS, CNBN

It is common knowledge that the Eastern Bluebird experienced a dramatic drop in population during the 20th century.

Reasons most often cited are:1)competition with more aggressive non-native cavity nesters, 2)pesticide use, and 3)use of metal fence posts in place of wooden posts which formerly provided cavities in ideal Bluebird habitat.

I wonder though. The Eastern United States was primarily forested thousands of years before the 20th century arrived. Yet, the Eastern Bluebird's habitat is primarily open land.

Is it possible that the present Eastern Bluebird population far exceeds that of Pre-Columbian times?

Or, is the Bluebird like its cousin, the American Robin, which was formerly a forest bird but adapted quite nicely to open land?

Sincerely,

Gary Springer

----------

From: sialia"at"cyberdude.com[SMTP:sialia"at"cyberdude.com]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 5:35 PM
To: Cornell Lab of Ornithology
Subject: chickadee nest / Wooden fence posts

Ch nests:

For the most part, Chickadees and Titmice build the exact same nest except for the cup. The Chickadee will line the cup with fine threaded material. They have been known to do justice to road kill. Titmice will line the cup, actually cover the top of the nest, with shreaded leaves. I have found this to be dependable, however, birds niether read, nor follow, the rules.

Wooden Fence Posts:

Generally, predators do not kill and leave the prey. House sparrows definitely kill in this manner and cannot dispose of an adult victim. Suffice it to say, the post did not attack anyone.

If one wishes to use wooden posts, or if an option simply does not present itself, the TBBH box will defeat, raccoons, cats, sharks, tigers, and trapalnosicks. Given that the boxes are mounted at the regular 4 - 5 feet, the post material will have no bearing on cats. A healthy feline will not take the time to climb.

Regarding foolishness, the only forsurely honestogoodly, is being an narrow mind.

Mike

Dear Mike

Please describe a TBBH box. It sounds awesome!!

Gary Springer

Diane Barbin
Harrisburg, PA
5 six-day old Bluebird nestlings in one nest, 5 one-day old Bluebird nestlings in another nest.

This is the first year that I have had the honor of having Chickadees build in one of my nestboxes. The nest was built last Wednesday and Thursday. The Chickadees have been seen near the box on several occasions since the nest was completed, but there are no eggs laid yet. Yesterday while checking my chickadee nestbox, I was startled to hear a low buzzing sound as I went to lift the fur lining of the nest to check for eggs. Although I was startled, I was not surprised since reading recently in this forum that sometimes bumblebees can be a problem in Chickadee nests.

Today when I went to check the nest, all the fur had been removed from the nest, I can see it scattered on the ground in an 8 foot radius around the nestbox, and the bumblebee was in the box walking around on the moss. Never having had this experience before, I have several questions?

Did the bumblebee remove all that fur? There was a lot of fur, and it seems like it would be quite an accomplishment for it to have done this in less than 24 hours. Does the bumblebee intend to take up residence in this nestbox now that the fur has been removed? If I get rid of this bumblebee, will there be others who come along to take it's place? Can I assume that the Chickadees will abandon this nest site since the bumblebee has taken up residence in the nestbox?

Any feedback on this issue will be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!

Diane Barbin

Subj: Nest Predator
Date: 5/2/99 5:03:20 PM Central Daylight Time
From: Sialiaman"at"aol.com

Dick Purvis, Anaheim CA

Linda Violett asked about a nest predator and wondered if anyone could identify it. I am reasonably sure that the predators were starlings. I have had a very similar happening this year with similar injuries to the young and spooked adults. Starlings hang in the entrance and reach down as far as they can and kill the young which they can reach. They also harass the adults and scare them away. In my case, the starling was perched atop the nestbox when I came around. The adult bluebirds eventually moved about 200 yards away to another box and renested. Use of a 1 9?16" entrance makes it easier for the starlings to reach in. I am thinking of going back to 1 1/2" entrances since WEBL certainly don't need the larger size. I think many of our "abandoned" nests are due to starlings chasing the bluebirds away.

In Lindas area there are no squirrels and it doesn't sound like a hawk.

Hawks do not leave injured young.

Subj: Re: Nest Predator
Date: 5/3/99 10:02:08 AM Central Daylight Time
From: birdsfly"at"innercite.com (Hatch Graham)

Hi Dick and all:

The folks in Oregon swear that Starlings can reach in the 1-9/16th inch holes. The larger size seems best suited for Mtn Bluebirds, but I agree with those who say nothing is gained for Western Blues by going larger than 1-1/2".

Hatch

Sialiaman"at"aol.com wrote:
Dick Purvis, Anaheim CA

Linda Violett asked about a nest predator and wondered if anyone could
identify it. I am reasonably sure that the predators were starlings. I have
had a very similar happening this year with similar injuries to the young and
spooked adults. Starlings hang in the entrance and reach down as far as they
can and kill the young which they can reach. They also harass the adults and
scare them away. In my case, the starling was perched atop the nestbox when
I came around. The adult bluebirds eventually moved about 200 yards away to
another box and renested. Use of a 1 9?16" entrance makes it easier for the
starlings to reach in. I am thinking of going back to 1 1/2" entrances since
WEBL certainly don't need the larger size. I think many of our "abandoned"
nests are due to starlings chasing the bluebirds away.
In Lindas area there are no squirrels and it doesn't sound like a hawk.
Hawks do not leave injured young.

--

Hatch Graham, Editor, Bluebirds Fly! California Bluebird
Recovery Program

Haleya Priest
Amherst, MA

I am awaiting the hatching very, very soon of 5 bb eggs. So far, so good, despite the HOSP and HWR in the area. My friend just email to let me knwo she has chickadee eggs. I have a few questions:

1)What is the incubation time for chickadees?

2) Once they hatch, about how long till they leave the nest?

3) Do they (the babies) come back to the nest after fledging?

4) How many broods do chickadees do a season?

5) How often should we monitor the nest? Are they more/less/about the same as bb in terms of being sensitive to being monitored.

6) How many eggs to a clutch, usually?

As always, I so appreciate the very fine information and the willingness to share that wisdom with us newcomers. H

Since there has been no response to your 6 questions Ill try to help.

#1-Incubation time for Chickadees in Maryland.
About 11 days.

#2- How long to fledge? About 2 weeks. #3- Do nestlings return to nest?
Usually no. They have no attachment to it.

#4-How many times they nest per season?
Generally once.

#5- How often to monitor, and are they sensitive to monitoring?
Once per week and do it quickly. Yes they are usually more sensitive to people messing with box. Could abandon ,not as tolerant as BB's.

#6- How many eggs?
There may be a slight difference between Black capped % Carolina Chickadees but expect between 5 to 8 eggs.

Hope this helps. Am sure you will hear more if anything was left out.

Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber

hubertrap"at"webtv.net

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas the Great Crested Flycatchers are busy building a nest today about 55' off of the ground in last years Red Bellied woodpecker cavity in a dying sweet gum.

Woodpeckers: It is rare for most of us to have a woodpecker species nesting in a box we put up! Congratulations! On the other hand if you know they are in the box I wouldn't bother them. They maybe a little easier to abandon their nest than bluebirds would be, I don't know for sure but I wouldn't chance losing this pair! Red headed woodpeckers have laid creamy white eggs in my boxes a few times and after finding them sitting I left them alone. I would watch them close but not open the box too much!

Odor:Polly, In this case I would look in the box carefully and see what is happening. Your birds should be used to your taking a quick look inside and as long as you open just like you have in the past and make no sudden movements they should sit tight. it is probably just because the parents can't clean the nest with six large babies and they are probably "whitewashing" the insides of the box since they will try to aim out away from the center of the nest. If there is a dead baby remove it slowly. If they are all alive let them be. As a precaution all of us should carry a 1" hole restrictor with us! If you encounter young that begin to fledge prematurely you can attach this restrictor over the hole and force the young to remain in the box. The parents will continue to feed through this restrictor and you can remove it the next day when they have calmed down. Attach it with screws and you won't disturb the young when it is removed.

cats: I have heard of them jumping up to boxes 72" above the ground. I recommend mounting boxes 96" or higher above ground on telescoping pipe to guard against cats.

moth balls:Just guessing I believe it is "para-di-cloro-benzene" I know it turns into a gas as it "melts". I doubt it will hurt the bluebirds since they won't eat it but I really doubt it will stop very many predators. Many people swear by it to stop everything from snakes to beaver. I have not had much success with it. Use good guards and the Harry Krueger snake trap along with the moth balls to be sure. I would like to have Hatch Graham answer this one further.

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas

Cowbirds: The Brown Headed does not build it's own nest. Bluebirds sometimes run out of time building a nest when the first egg must be laid. So sometimes they build a nest with an open bottom and poorly made.

White eggs: The thinner the shell the more pink the shade of the shell since you are seeing the light reflecting off of the yolk. Look closely at an old bluebird egg shell and you will see a white line under the blue coating.  This is the calcium laid down first. If you killed the female bluebird before she lays the egg the eggs in her body will be white. The coloring is applied as she lays the egg from a special duct. If something happens to this duct (infection, birth defect) or simply a kink in the line her eggs will be laid without the blue. There is a SLIGHT possibility that she could lay 4 blue and then a white. Only DNA testing of all young will verify this as a fact. It is more likely that there was another bluebird laying eggs in that nest. (What color are swallow eggs?) It is also not uncommon for the females of a mother that lays white eggs to also inherit this trait but some will lay blue eggs all their lives. Sooo much to learn yet! If you look at sparrow eggs the spots are darker near the "big" end this is because eggs are laid big end first (cruel trick on mothers) and they strain more and apply more color spots to this part of the eggs just as they "pop" out.

Albino bluebirds: Every year there are several born in boxes. DO NOT throw out any white "fuzzed" baby birds in a bluebird nest until you are sure what they are! Albino's, tufted titmice and several other newly hatched young will have white hair and not the normal black hair of bluebirds. You might be throwing out a once in a lifetime bird. My earlier post seemed to indicate you should remove them! I would wait a day or two to see if the others will hatch and if they didn't you can "foster" the white haired (cowbird?) in a sparrow nest for a week or so to see what it is. KK

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas

Indigo bunting: Before we have a calamity with a pellet gun and someone misidentifying the FEMALE indigo you should know that the females look and walk almost identically to the female Brown-headed cowbird. when in doubt don't pull the trigger! When in doubt don't remove the eggs!

cowbirds (Brown headed): Will seldom ever lay an egg in an empty nest. (It does happen but rarely) They do not always remove an egg when they lay theirs but will occasionally by pecking the egg and leaving two tiny "V" pierces in the shell about 1/4"3/8" apart. They will look like this " " where they picked up the egg and I have found them within10' of the box but many are probably carried further! Half the time they simply add one or two of their SPECKLED eggs to the nest (even if there are already 6 eggs in the nest!) They prefer to add to nests with a building number of eggs in my experiences. Probably easier to enter a nest and lay without the female incubating! Their eggs are like other birds, a wide range of sizes! I could take twenty different sparrows eggs, add one cowbird egg and no one could pick out the difference between them in either color or size. They maybe bigger or smaller than "normal" eastern bluebird eggs. In the southeastern states if you find a white egg in a box with a 1&1/2" entrance hole it is most likely an Eastern Bluebird!

Chain link fences:Nearly all species of cavity nesters will use boxes mounted to these fences. It is VERY hard to make them predator proof without adding a fence charger system. Fire ants will still attack boxes mounted there. It will not stop ANY climbing predator! BUT this mounting system is no worse than ANY other UNPROTECTED wood or metal pipe mounting system in the same area! Be sure and use either Don Hutching's PVC entrance "extender" or the Noel guard (at least 6"9" long) and monitor closely! MANY areas go years without a predator problem. Use common monitoring procedures and watch closely. KK

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas

Last EA bluebirds normally fledge in mid August in Northeast Texas. Latest I have had them fledge was Sept 9 others have had them still by the 16th Sept. in their boxes. new nest timing:Good question & answers everyone. Merlin, If there is another empty box near the seemly abandoned nest or bluebirds are still seen near the box I would wait three weeks. Like Merlin I do feel that a nest tells other bluebirds the area is taken and this is why I think leaving old nests actually slows down a new pair from moving into a box with an old nest. Hatch G.'s research should shed more information in a year or two. Ken Smith, Yes I do think another pair will sometimes come in and use an abandoned nest simply because sometimes the bluebirds are using different "favorite" hunting perches and are more or less aggressive when I attempt to check the box. Carolyn, A cold snap will stop bluebirds from completing clutches or abandon eggs simply like she said for lack of food. IF the weather quickly warms up and IF you have only one or two young in several boxes and IF I felt there were plenty of insects I have combined different nests of young the SAME age (by looks) into one nest so the others can renest and possibly raise a larger clutch before the summer is gone. This only saves a couple weeks for them. too late for boxes/SW Ontario: Joe Hurst has maintained a bluebird trail on the north shore of Lake Erie around Port Stanley, Ontario for years. His bluebirds normally nest into late July or even August. I always get asked the question, Is it too late for boxes? The answer is NEVER too late. For the benefit of all the new members if everyone would put the approximate date of their latest nestings in their signature line it would show that there is still LOTS of time for bluebirds all over the country to nest so don't give up! KK

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas 82*F already headed to 95*

Haleya and all: The reason you should leave a nest when only the first eggs are broken is that the female already has another egg being coated with calcium and another with the skin membrane formed so she cannot "reabsorb" her next two eggs, she will have to lay them somewhere. She will not have time to build a nest and I have seen them lay this next egg in empty nestboxes. Then have to build a nest (usually over the dumped egg) and start over in a week or so with a new series of eggs. In situations like this with the house sparrow still around I would put up a box 812' in the air near the now violated BB nest, (sparrow prefer more height in my area) place another near the Tree Swallow's and keep further away from a known sparrow nestbox than 50' with a third box. Trap this house sparrow as soon as possible.

Only when the female is just about to lay eggs or is starting to lay the first eggs if you need to put up new boxes (such as this emergency case) I would put a handful of pine needles or whatever material your local bluebirds prefer in the box and partially form a nest since the female won't have time to build a complete nest and lay the next mornings egg. Sorry this last information is probably too late for you!

Case in point is the bluebird nest with the incubating Tufted Titmouse just reported. I suspect that the TUTI just was run out of a completed nest somewhere and found the complete bluebird nest and dropped an egg or is still in the process of laying! In this case if the bluebirds are needing to lay eggs they can and will run out the TUTI. Here again I would put up another box within about 15-30' facing the same way as the TUTI box and hand build a "good" looking bluebird nest, place a 1&1/4" hole restrictor to protect the TUTI and enjoy both pairs of birds!

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas

The female is protecting her territory by fighting her reflection in the window. you will need to cover the window with cloth or simply use a section of the "bird netting" used for protecting fruit trees and hang it from the eaves of the house and prevent her from getting close to the windows. some people use owl or hawk decoys, rubber snakes sometimes work for a day or so. It sounds like she has dumped her eggs that she should have laid in a nest and has become obsessed with guarding the territory. After hiding these two favorite windows don't be surprised if she seeks out car mirrors or other windows of the house. Normally only the males persist in this! I wish you would keep the list up to date about this since this is fairly rare for the female to do this in my area. KK

To Linda Violett in Yorba Linda CA, et al, from Bruce Burdett in Sunapee NH,   About an hour after I had written you arrogantly that I NEVER had problems with ground-based pole-climbers, I found a clean, empty BB nest where I'd had 4 healthy young chicks a few days ago. They would not have been old enough to fledge, and the nest was not soiled or flattened. Something, apparently, ate them.   The moral of this is: "When you don't know what you're talking about, keep your mouth shut."

What would you guess took the chicks? The nest was not disturbed. As I stood there I could hear at least one BB singing in the trees. I had no pole baffle because I'd never needed one. The house was in a rather suburbanized area, and I've seen both Gray Squirrels and Starlings there. The paired house 15' away was unused (empty), which suggests no keen HOWR or HOSP or even TRSW competition. The hole was 1.5" diam. Though it's my only suburban BB house, the yard does back up to a golf course.

Let me know what you think. I'm not "freaking out", like our friend Haleya, but I am puzzled, ticked off, - and, yes, less arrogant than I was this morning.

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas

Laney, I have found all the young bluebirds from a box like yours on the ground well before they could fly. In my case a snake was in the box. I believe adults can call the young to leave a nestbox early. Was there some type of predator (bird) in the area? where are you located? I have seen mites drive young from a box during hot weather also well before fledging time. Extreme heat will make them abandon the box also.

Wendy, I would leave the eggs a little while longer (10 days or so) There is nothing to gain at this time by emptying the box. If they truly want to re-nest they will build over the eggs and lay more. Females have been very lax in incubating and on some trails have still hatched young as late as 24 days from the time of last egg laid.

Randall, Eggs on the bottom of a nestbox cannot be incubated by the female so building a new nest for them is OK. the problem you may be running into is that they may have already moved on and found another nestbox and have started the whole nesting cycle over. If no more eggs are laid in 3-4 days you could mark those eggs and add them to another clutch of bluebird eggs just being laid (not already incubating) Others may have more thoughts on this. KK

Kevin Putman, Yuba City, CA

Just getting caught up on some reading and I came across Shelly's post--very interesting, especially since she now has hard data (band records) on this phenomenon of helper bluebirds. It is well known that chicks from the early nesting period will help the parents raise the second nest, but I've not seen any mention of older birds returning to help raise nests in second year and beyond--other than what I've seen posted here, this year.

Evidently, Shelly didn't catch my post of about a month ago: I have seen this same thing here in northern Calif., also. And Dick Purvis also stated that he has observed same in Southern Calif. What is especially interesting (I think) is that these helpers are often males (I've seen it involving a second-year hen, too), and that the male parent tolerates these other males near his mate and nest. I had suspected that the helpers are probably related to the parents (since I knew that this was the case in the above instance involving the hen ), and now Shelly has some data that is consistent with that idea (nice work, Shelly!).

Dick Purvis raised an interesting thought (in his post of a month ago) about "single" bluebirds-- that not all of them can pair-off perfectly, and some will be without mates, and that these may tend to hang around to help their parents.

I said in my previous post that it seemed (tentatively) like this may be something that is peculiar to the Western Bluebird--based on the fact that there have been no responses from those of you in the east, or from Mountain Bluebird folks. And here we have yet another instance here in the west--Shelly's. Someone may yet weigh in from the east/ mountains.

Kevin Putman

Shelly Walker's Post:

Has anyone else had experience with helper bluebirds? I know that juveniles from the first clutch will often help their parents with the second clutch but this situation doesn't fall under that logic. We're in our first nesting of the season here in Oregon. Twice in the last 2 weeks when I've gone out to band, I've found more than the usual 2 parents tending the young. I banded the young at one box 2 weeks ago and then captured the parents to read the band numbers or to band them. I captured 2 males and a female. The homeowner and I watched all 3 birds fly in and out of the nest box with mealworms. One of the males hatched in the same box last year and one of the males hatched in the box in 97. Today, the homeowners at a different property swore to me that they had 3 males and a female helping feed the young. Sure enough, when I set the trap baited with mealworms, 4 bluebirds appeared. Two of  the males are siblings. They hatched in the box at this particular property last June. The third male was captured and banded as an adult at this property at the same time last year. I assume he's the parent this year. The female was also banded as an adult last year at a box about a mile from this nest site. I have a box to band next week as well where the homeowner called me and said she thinks she has more than 2 bluebirds. When she sets mealworms out, several adults fly down to claim them.

Shelly Walker
Portland, OR

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