Problems with house sparrows (HOSP) on the bluebird trail (Part 1)

General Topics: Including Discriminating other Sparrows from HOSPs

Also see other HOSP information under Active Control, Passive Control, Lime, Predator Identification, etc.

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: 

• Minimum diameter for House Sparrow entry by Frank Navratil
• House Sparrows by Steve Eno
• The Active and Passive Bluebirders by Bluebird Bob Walshaw and Jim McLochlin

HOME...
Where friends are always welcome.
Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas

I have a house sparrow nesting with four eggs in a log box (made from a chunk of left over manufactured log home, totally smooth curved wood front) with a 3&5/8" bored nesting chamber 5" deep. The top is bored out to 2&9/16 inches and a total depth of 6" from bottom of 1&9/16" entrance to top of floor. There are 6 nest cavities with in 100', 10 within sight. Not counting natural cavities or an 18 hole martin house and all are over 22.5 square inches! Someone try to explain why they nested in a box with less than 10.5 square inches of floor space! Sparrows will nest anywhere they can squeeze their eggs in a spot! KK

Subj: House Sparrow Decline??
Date: 1/11/00 1:45:58 AM Central Standard Time
From: dputman"at"syix.com (dputman)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: dputman"at"syix.com
To: Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu (bluebird)

I was reading a while back--I think it was from "Feeder Watch" results--that the House Sparrow has shown population declines for several consecutive years. I can hardly believe that this is an accurate estimate of reality! But if it is, maybe congratulations are in order to those of us who have been reducing their fecundity, so to speak.

Kevin Putman, Yuba City, CA

Hi Kevin and all, It is hard for me to believe there is a decline in House Sparrows too. Don't know if there is an accurate way to determine that. I do know that there are thousands of people now trapping them one way or another. I've sent instructions to over 4000 people that have written for information on how to do it. This many has no doubt spread the word. People with Purple Martins and those with Bluebird boxes are working on the House sparrow population. perhaps it is making a difference in many locations. The sparrows are more wide spread now than say 50 years ago. Their nesting areas have expanded as more land development takes place. Could be they are just more spread out and not in the large flocks of years ago. What ever their number they are still deadly to our native birds. Joe Huber Venice Fl.

While I still see lots of house sparrows out in the rural areas near farms where there is grain available, I seldom see them in my yard anymore. Usually have a resident flock to help clean out the feeders in the winter, but, for the past 2 years have only noticed 1 or 2 , occasionally. I did have a thought that perhaps the proliferation of house finches about the yard might have something to do with it, although the two species do not compete for nesting sites. In any case, I really don't miss them!!

Joan Schrinner
West Central Wisconsin

Hello all,

When a House Sparrow kills an adult Bluebird inside the nest box, is the sparrow sitting in the entrance hole preventing escape of the Bluebird or does the sparrow totally enter the nest box when it attacks the adult?

If the sparrow is not blocking the entrance while the Bluebird is being destroyed, it does not seem a two hole nest box would present a defensive advantage against the House Sparrow. Further, if the Bluebird's parental instinct is like many species, it would not abandon the chicks/eggs for its own safety.

However, if the sparrow does sit in the entrance while attacking the Bluebird, and the Bluebird would otherwise readily abandon the nest when attacked, it seems the two hole nest box would be an advantage in areas of known House Sparrow infestation.

Has anyone observed an attack inside the nest box by a House Sparrow that left the adult Bluebird dead?

Have any such attacks been recorded on nest box cams?

In addition to more ventilation what are some other advantages/disadvantages of two hole nest boxes?

Also, has it ever been determined what is the smallest size hole an adult Eastern Bluebird could pass through if its life were in danger?

Gary Springer,

Writing from the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains in Northeast Georgia, further north than most of South Carolina and a bit of North Carolina
Member NABS, Bluebird Society of Pennsylvania, and Ohio Bluebird Society
www.realbirdhomes.com

Gary,

I've never seen a House Sparrow attack an adult bluebird, but I saw one attacking five bluebird chicks last year and the sparrow fully entered the box.

(Even with all the damage to their heads and blood all over the inside of the box, the chicks survived and fledged. Sorry if some are grossed out about this, but you really have to understand this is what House Sparrows do.)

Brenda

...

Gary,

I have not seen a adult Bluebird killed in the nest, but did see House Sparrow go into the nestbox and pull the chicks out.

Maynard R Sumner Flint, Michigan

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galatian 6:7

Rhonda Watts
Wilton, N.H.

Thankfully my number of house sparrow attacks is low, so I can't really make generalizations. However, the one "memorable" instance (2 nestlings killed) was indeed with the male HOSP fully in the box.

As I approached the box for regular check, I noticed both BB parents fluttering around the vicinity with strange cries. Opened the box, found HOSP pecking one nestling's head in (already dead);a second was badly bloodied, but it along with 2 others was cowering on the top of the nest sides. HOSP flew out, I was too startled to respond--then.

I removed the dead nestling and retreated about 20 ft away. Waited about 10 minutes; sure enough, male HOSP returned and entered the box (I mean went DIRECTLY into the hole, no reconnoitering). I ran over, flung up top of box, and as HOSP flew out I GOT THE LITTLE B*****! (Second injured nestling was dead next AM, remaining 2 fledged on schedule. Mr & Mrs BB, by the way, seemed to come over whenever I checked that box thereafter, making the most beautiful sweet, muted calls. Probably my anthropomorphic imagination.)

So, yes--HOSP will indeed fully enter the box, at least after nestlings.

Hi all. Good to hear from you Gary again. Hope all is well.

About the HOSP killings. Here in NW CT, we see an ever increase in HOSPs brought in by the growing popularity of horses. As the years go by, I have witnesed several killings from these alien bastards. They are one of the most persistent, and agressive of all bird species I have ever seen, and each year, they show new tricks in this talent.

Two years ago, I was checking a box that contained 4 nearly fledged BBs. As I approached, I noticed a head sticking out of the entrence. As I got closer, it became the head of a chirping male HOSP! What was going on here?

I approached, and the HOSP flew to a nearby bush, chirping all the while. When I opened the box, I found 3 dead young with their heads bashed in, and the 4th was still alive.

I closed the box, went back to the car, and observed what happened next.

The BB pair came back, and both landed on the box top, defending their box. Shortly, the female HOSP tried to land on the top, and both BBs chased her off. As this happened, the Male, who was chirping all the while, flew quickly back into the box, killed the last young BB, and stuck its head out the hole, preventing anything from entering!

The BB pair had no chance here, for if they defended the box continualy from the attacking HOSPs, the young would eventualy die of starvation. And if they went away to get food, the HOSPs would do what they did; kill the young within.

Checking the box a week later, the HOSPs had built their nest on top of the dead BBs, and already had 2 eggs in it! Thjis alien bird has many tricks it uses to usurp any box it wants, and this talent is not understood by our native species, for they havent had time enough to adjust to the aliens ways.

After witnising this type of event many times, I understand why people like Joe Huber, and others spent many hours perfecting sparrow traps! Thanks guys for helping our native species over come this very destructive foreigner! Now if I can only get my neighbor, who has 20+ cute boxes he built, from alowing all to be occupied by HOSPs!!

..........HOSP irate Bluebirder from CT

...

Well, that's the rub, you probably can't. In our rush to encourage "everyone" to put up bluebird, martin, and other kinds of nestboxes, we neglect to factor in human nature - that the attention of most will fade with putting up the nestbox; they won't "hear" Messages around placement, monitoring, or predator-protection, or even if they do hear them, they won't have the patience, fortitude or persistence necessary to follow through.

I have always been critical of those who view bluebirding as a numbers game - from either the nestbox or production sides. Working to "get up more houses everywhere" - in the absence of the understanding or work entailed - usually ends up producing more sparrows than anything else (virtually every scout project trail becomes so after the second or third year).

And even so, do we want all those houses to produce three to four full broods of bluebirds every year? Is it possible to have too many bluebirds? Would a world with bluebirds as common as House sparrows (or robins?) be as interesting? Would you have an increasing bluebird population displace other species? If so, which ones?

Putting up a nestbox (which is one of the simplest of habitat manipulations possible) can have all sorts of unintended consequences - and one is a misleading of otherwise well-intentioned people into believing that they are somehow playing a role in nature which goes beyond that which is strictly human (hint: they are not your bluebirds). Usually, this attitude is most pronounced in folks with a few seasons of success behind them - a time when everything seems to have fallen into place and there are few, if any, mysteries left to learn. Be patient. If you keep an open mind, the mysteries get larger, rather than smaller.

Jim Walters james-walters"at"uiowa.edu
Johnson County Songbird Project
1033 E. Washington
Iowa City, IA 52240-5248 (319) 466-1134
U.S.A.

Dot F, upstate NY north of Syracuse, Lake Ontario snowbelt

Hi Jim and all - the problem of neighbor's nestboxes allowed to host HOSP is a common one. When persuasion and all else fail, some of us have been known to sneak out in the middle of the night and remove such boxes. Even better, if possible, is to just remove most of the bottom - often the idiot box owner won't even notice!

Dot

... 

Granted, I have not ever seen a house sparrow, lucky me, but I just have to butt in when I see someone condoning and recommending destroying or tampering with someone else's property. Surely more of you than just me think this is, at best, wrong, and at worst, dangerous. Just my two cents.

Sue, Atlanta, GA

I must ask what this means....

"The most productive bluebird nest box outside the back bedroom window has 2 embedded bbs. A small price to pay for many a fledged eastern bluebirds."

Also, If I were to spend my time trying to "...Changing the mentality of people who feed varment birds...", I might find my time better spent trying to teach people not to throw full diapers out their car window in the mall parking lots, next to the McDonald's & Burger Kings where the sparrows are feasting upon french fries...

And, sparrows are "varments" (sic) [varmints] only in the sense that they destroy the bluebirds we are so fond of. Were it not for that, we might think quite differently about turning them into worm food.

And lastly, perhaps six-year-olds wouldn't shoot six-year-olds with firearms if they had an air rifle and experienced shooting a few sparrows. Then they might understand what death was. But maybe that argument doesn't belong here.

No, this ain't pretty.

Nicholas

Holly, Michigan
42nd parallel
15 miles from the six-year-old shooting six-year-old.

... 

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas. Showers this morning & Sandy saw the first Hummingbird of the spring at our house. Gave a bluebird program last week and had a lady there who kept her feeders up all winter and she had a hummer even during the ice and snow storm of January. She filled the feeders and warmed them every half hour on cold days for her bird.

Sparrow proof? House sparrows are not the worst predator of bluebirds in many areas. Sparrows have evolved with the European Starling which will excavate any cavity they can reach into or enter! NABS paid good money for a research project into a "Sparrow Proof" nestbox while I was a member of the board. The research found that house sparrows would not nest in boxes with a 2" entrance hole 1" off the floor of a 6"x6"x6" nestbox! Almost identical to the compartments in most Purple Martin houses!

If you build a nestbox with a 1&1/2" entrance hole and place it in a 4"x4"x4" nestbox how high off the floor will this hole be? If the bluebird laid it's eggs on the floor they would be less than 2" from the entrance hole! I have seen bluebirds build in these small shallow boxes and any bird or predator could reach any egg! By placing the box so low as to make any guard useless a long term trail with these specifications will be doomed in less than 6 years as predators will strip every box of contents.

We get to hate House Sparrows because not only do they kill our native birds but they often have the audacity to nest over their victims corpse's or use the feathers to line their nests. They stick around and brag about their "fowl" deeds where as your neighbors cat or coon/possum/snake or whatever often will even eat the feathers and usually never even leave a clue they were there! It is far easier to dislike a creature when it can be seen!

Sparrows are not that hard to remove from a nestbox trail with the use of traps like the Huber and Mel Bolt types. Do not rush out to install boxes which might be dangerous to the bluebirds from a dozen other more deadly predators! Davis has a whole string of "Sparrow proof" nestboxes from over the years and they keep evolving each year, getting smaller and entrance holes/slots/thickness keep changing and now a thin box will deter sparrow?

What about the millions of House Sparrows who fledge out of Aluminum Martin houses each year! Can these sparrows not see that the box is less than 1/32" thick or can they simply not access or read all this research we humans are doing! By all means experiment but take EVERY predator in your area and use a system that will exclude EVERYONE of them!

David, The Insecticide "Baygon" is a brand name please send the active ingredients and % of these since "Baygon" is not listed in any of my reference books on insecticides. I doubt if this will be safe to use in any active nest of any bird! You can get insecticide sprays which have been tested on canaries (one of the least hardy of common pet birds) at any pet store for use on mites. These will contain pyrethrins or pyrethrums or permethrins (sp) all related insecticides with very quick knock down properties that will work on wasps. They are not fast killers, but a single burst into a wasp nest will allow clean out the following day.DO NOT use any spray in any box you plan on collecting nests to send off for blowfly research! KK

Eastern Oklahoma - In this area at least (and in any other bluebird area that I am aware of) the only cavity nesting sparrow is the house sparrow. Remember that these are not really sparrows - they are Weaver Finches.

Nicholas,

I have to admit that releasing sparrows at fast food joints was my idea. (I had told my son that if we caught one, we'd take it to McDonald's. It started out as a joke to appease a young child who didn't want the sparrows killed.) What law would I be breaking by releasing sparrows at a fast food joint?

Brenda
--
Brenda Best
Durhamville, NY
(between Syracuse and Utica)
jabbest"at"dreamscape.com

The Nature Club of Central New York
http://natureclubofcny.8m.com/

... 

I would start with nuisance and go from there.

Please allow me to step into the shoes of "Fire Marshall Bill" and take on the topic...

For a moment, put yourself in the shoes of the poor rich goat what owns the fast food joint:

I invest my entire life savings and go into hock big time to buy a McDonald's franchise. I have to keep the pests out, mice, roaches, ants, keep the place fit for County health inspectors, and keep the property outside clean and tidy to encourage customers to frequent here.

Part of the problem outside is the presence of sparrows...building nests above the entrance doors, crapping all over the place, and eating whatever people toss out their windows.

And now, I have this lady & her kid coming by twice a week dropping these sparrows off by the bag-full!

Because I am in the city, I am limited as to what I can do about the sparrows. Can't shoot 'em. But I do have to clean up after their mess. Would you like to sit on a picnic table with bird grunt all over the seats and table?

What if I trap them? What if I have a trap out and some supposed nature-lover drives through and objects to my trapping and disposing of these pests? Do I get a reputation for being environmentally unfriendly?

Do I hire a professional exterminator and pay, and still risk the bad press?

Bottom line: This practice just puts the gum in someone else's hair. If it ain't illegal, it should be.

Nicholas

... 

Robyn Kells
Charlottesville, VA

OK, I know I'm in for some really stern responses to this, and I deserve every word! :(

I'll try to make a long story short. We realized, in going to make the HOSP-proof hole cover for our nestbox, that we didn't have a 1 1/4" hole saw and would have to get one. My husband picked one up on his way home from work today (i.e., TWO FULL DAYS after I originally intended to put the cover on...intentions such as the road to Hell is paved with, apparently). The delay wasn't his fault, but it did happen.

Now I'll make another long story short. After weeks of diddling around and not showing any commitment to the nestbox aside from brief daily visits, our Bluebird missus picked TONIGHT to start carrying grass into the box. I had to run an errand after work, but my husband saw her carrying a beakful in about 6:00, shortly after he got back from buying the hole saw. (He also saw our first Brown Thrasher of the season in our lilac bush, and I missed it...but I digress.)

The Chickadees, despite the promising start to their nest, haven't even been going in the box lately. The pair still shows up mornings and evenings to partake of our sunflower seeds and peanuts, and will peek into the box about once a night, but I haven't seen one go in since the beginning of the week. The moss nest, if anything, is a little thinner these days, and no eggs, so they obviously haven't been working on it while I'm not looking, either.

Now, under ordinary circumstances I'd be beside myself with excitement that we have Bluebirds choosing to nest in our suburban, first-year nestbox, but everybody on this list has heard in more detail than they probably cared to about why I can't bring myself to kill HOSPs and had decided to turn the box over to the Chickadees. Suddenly it's not that simple anymore, and it's all because I couldn't get my act together and get the darn hole covered quickly enough! Augh! I'm so mad at myself I could spit in a mirror.

The rest of our situation is basically unchanged--we do have a pretty consistent pair of HOSPs around, with occasional spurts of 4 or 5 (I went back and checked my bird journal--as late as the end of March we were getting a total of 3-5 HOSPs every few days, with only one HOSP-free day since early February). So far I have *never* seen a HOSP even briefly check out the nestbox, and there's absolutely no HOSP nesting material inside, but that's obviously no guarantee they won't have a change of heart later in the season. As much as I hate to kick out the EABLs now that the nest has started, I would hate so much more to remove a pecked-to-death Bluebird or hatchlings (this morning's digest really drove this home--I was so sorry to hear about the dead birds!).

I also am a little nervous about trying experimental things like mounting HOSP-repellent 12# monofilament fishing line near a nestbox, since I am still very much a beginner, but this I could certainly do.

So much for making a long story short! Anyway, my basic question is--would I now be doing more harm than good by putting the hole cover on? Should I risk something like the monofilament line? Should I ask around for any door-to-door HOSPicide services??? Should I just put *myself* in a Huber trap and whack myself against a tree???? :-P

Sorry to bug everybody with this tedious stuff...

Wishing everybody a peacefu, Bluebirdful, HOSP-, cat-, and snake-free weekend, rlk

=========================

Robyn Kells "What has all this to do with you, Moldorf?
rkells"at"virginia.edu The word in your mouth is anarchy.
Planet Earth Say it, Moldorf, I am waiting to hear it."
- Henry Miller, Tropic of Cancer

Bluebird laws. Similar to human laws that do not allow us to get rid of a lawbreaker or murderer in our town by taking them to another town and releasing them.

At 05:02 PM 4/7/00 -0700, you wrote:

I would start with nuisance and go from there.

....
Nicholas

Well said, Nicholas! Keith Kridler and I were at a Master Gardener's bluebird house day in Mount Pleasant over a month ago. It was his brother-in-laws establishment (hardware store, not fast food)and even there the house sparrows were pest. We pointed them out to people for awhile, since some were not sure what they looked like, then Keith couldn't stand it and went for a nestbox and trap! Removing the messy little pests would have been appreciated. The store owners did not need someone bringing more, and they were not serving food.

Did you know on inspections in facilities which print containers that will hold food, if someone has left a door open and a bird is seen in the building, the plant fails the inspection immediately, no matter how spotless and well-run it is otherwise! This happened at a local packaging plant about 3 years ago. Some of the workers disobeyed the rule about keeping all the doors closed, and let a bird in. The company produced packaging for Sonic, Earth Grains and other food companies.

I like someone's analogy of releasing a murderer in someone else's neighborhood. If you don't want them, no one else does either, especially if they know anything about them.

Kate Oschwald
Sumner, TX
100 mi NE of Dallas

Hey, this is kind of fun! Let's try another version. My apologies to Bob (and Gibran).

The house sparrows are not yours.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come to you but not for you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your hate but even this is of no consequence,
For they have their own predetermination.
You may harm their bodies but not their spirit,
For their spirit dwells in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not
even in your dreams.
For life goes not backwards nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bow from, which your emotions as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with
His might that His house sparrows may go swift and far [yea, even with you, to new continents].
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the sparrow that flies, so He loves also the [bluebird] monitor
that is "stable."

Jim Walters

I've heard that wildlife rehabilatators can often use live house sparrows. The hawks, owls, etc., in their care like to eat them for lunch!

Marisa
Central Missouri

Hi all...... 26 f and wondering, Where is spring!!!..Paul from CT

I have some excerpts about HOUSE SPARROWS which I read in two British magazines that I thought you might find interesting. My birding friend from Cornwall UK, sends them to me often, and I just read these two interesting articles.................I will paraphrase below the interesting parts... .......................

From "Bird Watching - July 99" - Editors column -

He talks about the problem of overpopulation of Ruddy ducks in Europe, and the process of eliminating this alian NA species, which is threatening the native White headed duck....Interbreeding I believe.

" All agree that eradication of the NA alien is necessary to safeguard the endangered population of White headed ducks."

He writes on........ "These thoughts were in the back of my mind during my recent holiday to Arizona.It struck me as ironic that every morning, no mater where we were staying, the most persistent bird sound we heard was the "chip, chip, chip of the European House Sparrow. Is the Rudy duck the Americans' way of getting back?"

Here is inserted a large color pix of a male HOSP (almost a beauty shot)!!

Under it, reads......

"Early European settlers to NA imported many bird species to help make the country side a more familiar place. Now successful species such as HOSPs and Starlings have reached almost plague proportions .........

In the case of the ruddy duck, are we right to try to redress earlier mistakes, or should we accept that mans actions are a natural part of the evolutionary process?"..........(Ed: I could sure answer this one!)

David Cromack, editor

From a different magazine "Birds" - mag of the RSPB......

Hear they talk about the decline of certain British species.......

Article titled "Big Problem: Wrong Answer?"

The Sparrow Problem........"House sparrows have declined by more than 50%. It seems odd for us to address this problem. Just 25 years ago, sparrows were concidered a pest on our farm......(Ed: he explains how the HOSPs would swarm onto their wheat, and eat it all before it was harvestable! So why try to save this pest I ask? "Five years ago, all that remained on our farm were two or three nesting pairs. What had happened? (Ed: I sure would like to know what did it!) How in such a short time, had these common birds turned into a potential rarity?"

...It reads on to tell how they encouraged them by making roof tiles available to them for nesting, encouraging hedges and dense cover near feeding sites, and building mass feeders!........... reading on........

"Now the farm has a resident flock of more than 100 pairs; and a constant chirping and squabbling is again heard around the farm buildings. It sounds like a success story, but it is not. The bad news is still there." (Ed: In Europe, the HOSP is not a problem to other indiginous nesting birds? - would like to know the answer to this; I will ask my friend.)

......It reads on......................".Uncertain Future"

"Why is it necessary to use such artificial means to preserve "basic" species? If the countryside does not provide what they require to survive, they will continue to die out.. If farmers like us provide for their needs with artificial feeding, we have really turned independent, wild creatures into dependents. If we forget to feed them, they die. If the farmer who supports them stopped doing so, they disappear. Their futures are tenuous when placed in so few hands."(Ed: Gee, sounds a bit like the plight of the Bluebird here, yes?)

Their conclusion is, every farm needs to provide wildlife with habitat.

END OF ARTICLES

Boy; a lot can be read into this from an American's viewpoint, yes?

Any comments?...............Paul

Rhonda
Wilton, N.H.

Just a reiteration of my observation of HOSP while in England. Far less noisy, messy, belligerent, than here. Also ** less numerous than they would have been in the same horse-stable setting over here! no one at that stable seemed to know enough about birds to tell me if HOSP attacked other cavity nesters there.

Hi,

I have some bluebirds nesting (well, they've built their nest, whether there are any eggs is still yet to be determined), and in the grassy area around their box I've seen this female HOSP poking around in the grass, once or twice a day. I haven't seen the male with her (except last week, when he was run off by the male EABL). I haven't seen her harassing the EABLs, just poking around for insects and weed seeds.

Having this female HOSP around the BB box makes me nervous, especially since I rarely have HOSPs in my yard. This has been going on for a few days. Should I be concerned? Should I intervene (my husband is a pretty good shot)? I'd hate for her or her mate to do something to the bluebirds.

Thanks,
Marisa
Central Missouri

Marisa:

By all means, have your husband do away with the HOSP. Even if he doesn't bother your nesters, he will eventually disturb or kill a cavity nester somewhere. And leaving him alive to breed may add hundreds of thousands of HOSPS to the ever-expanding population. If I'm not mistaken, the European Starlings in this country all came from 52 pairs released at the opening of Grand Central Park.

Wendy Guglieri
Rescue, Ca.

...

Joe Huber Venice Fl, Hi Marisa and all, A female house sparrow on the ground near an active bluebird nest should not cause any problem for the bluebirds. the male house sparrow is the one that selects the nest site and also the one that attacks other birds in a nest box. The female you see may already have a nest site elsewhere and is just gathering nest material or searching for food. If a male shows up you can be sure the bluebirds will be after him to chase away. Joe

Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber
hubertrap"at"webtv.net

http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL
http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds

Intervene. Never miss an opportunity to eliminate a house sparrow. I was one day late early this week with a trap and a house sparrow killed a chickadee that had spent three days building her nest. Bluebird Bob, NE Oklahoma.

I may seem hard headed about this view, but I hate to see comments that Bluebirds will chase male house sparrows away. In my area I see Bluebirds fleeing for their very lives. Even with my extremely aggressive house sparrow trapping I have had two male bluebirds and four Chickadees killed by male house sparrows so far this spring. Bluebird Bob, NE Oklahoma.

Bob Walshaw, et al: It sounds to me as though this Aggressive Bluebird Syndrome varies a lot from place to place, maybe even within neighborhoods. I've seen them bullied and chased away, and I've seen them attack and drive off just about anything that shows up in their territory. Maybe a little 'survival-of-the-fittest' is going on here. Who knows? - Bruce Burdett, NH.

....
 

Bluebird Bob wrote

I may seem hard headed about this view, but I hate to see comments that
....

Hi Bob,

But, the fact remains that the bluebird does often effectively defend its nest against house sparrows, and successfully fledges bluebirds in the same vacinity with large communities of nesting house sparrows.

You indicated you are trapping and destroying lots of house sparrows. Is this house sparrow infestation throughout your entire trail? Please refresh my memory on how many boxes are on your trail and the distance it covers.

Gary Springer

Joe Huber Venice Fl Bluebird Bob and all, The point I was trying to make is that the bluebirds evidently tolerated the female sparrow on the ground near the nest box since they know she isn't a threat,but if a male sparrow showed up anywhere near the area the Bluebirds would immediately go after him in an effort to chase him away. In this particular case the female may not be any thing to be concerned about as far as safety at the Bluebird nest. If a person was using a repeating bait type trap in that area this female would likely already be caught. No need to shoot a gun when you have a good trapping program with live decoys in the bait trap. I was not trying to say that Bluebirds can defend their nest box by chasing away sparrows. Was just suggesting when they would go after a male sparrow that entered their area even if the sparrow showed no interest in their box. These people were concerned about a female sparrow on the ground in the area of the bluebird nest box. I personally seen no immediate threat to the bluebird nest in that area. Joe

Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber
hubertrap"at"webtv.net

http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL
http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds

Gary and gang - I intentionally, do not make a hard and fast statements about Bluebirds in my talks or on the listserve. It seems that as soon as you do, someone has had a different situation. This is in placement of boxes, directions they face, on and on and on. If a person has been doing something, GREAT, keep doing it if it works for you. We as individuals do as experience has taught us and as we analyze each situation and then decide whether to try it in our areas or not.

I try to answer as to my experience any certain question asked and tell them that it HAS been my experience. Try it, it may work the same for you. Trails, environmental situations are different where ever you go. We just get ideas, try or not, and sometimes they become our experiences, too.

Good Luck on your Bluebird trails, one and all.

Dan McCue, Camden, TN 70 miles due west of Nashville in west TN. monitoring about 130 boxes at present.

Gary Springer wrote:

Bluebird Bob wrote

I may seem hard headed about this view, but I hate to see comments that
....

Hi Bluebird Bob,

I have seen with my own two eyes a male bluebird chasing away a male house sparrow. I haven't seen the male house sparrow since. Obviously bluebirds aren't always successful fending off male house sparrows, but I would think that they do attempt to chase them off at least some of the time. Anyhow, at least the male bluebird in my yard chases off the male house sparrows.

Marisa
Central Missouri

----- Original Message -----

From: "R_C Walshaw" walshaw"at"gte.net
To: "Bluebird Listserve" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: Joe Huber comment about Hosp - to be or not to be

I may seem hard headed about this view, but I hate to see comments that
....

Bill Darnell, Savannah, TN
Lat: 35:18:32.407N
Lon 88:10:31.368W

Marisa:

I have seen this also. But the rub is, when the male HOSP catches the Bluebird in the nest box. The Bluebird does not stand much of a chance. The HOSP short, stubby wings allows it to maneuver better. And in those close quarters, the conical, powerful finch bill can crush the BB's head.

As long as they are outside, The BB has a better chance, but it still depends on how badly the HOSP wants the nest. I have found what I am sure was a HOSP kill outside the box.

Bill

Hi Bluebird Bob,

I have seen with my own two eyes a male bluebird chasing away a male house
....

Perhaps she presented no immediate danger, but as part of a pair she will probably be raising more house sparrows. At least in this area it is important to eliminate both the male and female wherever and whenever you can. Bluebird Bob, NE Oklahoma.

Great! I wish I could import some of yours to give some of mine lessons.Today near my barn a Bluebird almost flew into my face in its panicked flight from a house sparrow.

Excellent! And very true. All six of the kills that I have had this year were in a nestbox. Knowing that this happens why miss any chance to eliminate house sparrows?

Yeah, we saw both the male and female HOSP today and tried shooting at them without luck. I think she might have a nest a few houses away because she always flies to and from the same direction. I went looking for a possible nest (probably in a natural tree cavity, because there are a lot of those around here), but couldn't find one. I'm on it, though! :-)

Marisa
Central Missouri

...

Again -EXCELLENT! The cavity nesters and a lot of birders thank you!

Bluebird Bob, NE Oklahoma.

If you use the Huber type trap after a house sparrow nest has been started you will usually catch the female first. Bluebird Bob, NE OK.

Thanks to all for SO MUCH information for a second-year bluebirder!

I have a male EABL who has successfully fought off two other males, tree swallows and a pair of HOSPS. He's sat atop his claimed box and has sung for a female for five days now. He's in and out of the box constantly. Question: will he leave for another area or be persistent?

Lynn

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:11:23 -0400
From: nurbanz"at"us.ibm.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Should I remove the nest form the bb box? - Update

Nipa Urbanz, Atlanta-GA Cloudy 60F in the AM. Sunny 70F in the PM.

I had a leisure of working from home today and was able to monitor the bb box to see if I will see them at all today. This morning, I notice a sparrow (not sure what kind) was checking out and hanging around the bb box all morning. I also catching he/she eating all of my mealworms that I have put out for my bb parents. What should I do? How can I prevent them from taking over the bb nest?

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:28:28 -0400
From: nurbanz"at"us.ibm.com
To: wforres1"at"twcny.rr.com, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Should I remove the nest form the bb box? - Update

Yes, I just checked my Eastern Birds guide and the sparrow I saw looks more like a chipping sparrow.

Bill & Dot Forrester wforres1"at"twcny.rr.com on 04/28/2000 11:23:57 AM

Please respond to wforres1"at"twcny.rr.com

To: Nipa Urbanz/Atlanta/IBM"at"IBMUS
cc:
Subject: Re: Should I remove the nest form the bb box? - Update

Hi Nipa,

The first think you have to do is identify the "sparrow". Do you have a bird guide, or can you get one quickly from the library? Many sparrow-like birds are curious about nestboxes. The only dangerous bird is the House Sparrow, which is not with other sparrows in bird guides because it is actually a weaver finch. In my books it is under finch-sparrow-like birds, but can be found under house sparrow in the index. After ID, then people can help with your question.

Dot

... 

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:09:43 -0700
From: "dputman" dputman"at"syix.com
To: "bluebird" Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: No White-crowned sparrow nest

Kevin Putman, Yuba City, CA
Wendy, others,

Welp, I checked out my friend's story about her supposed white-crowned sparrow nesting in a nestbox. It was--you guessed it--a house sparrow. You just can't trust other people's eyes (nor my own, sometimes). The hen house sparrow can be confusing to identify (I often have to hesitate and make sure just before... oh, I digress), so it's not surprising when someone has trouble distinguishing them from other sparrows. She saw blue in the eggs where there was none--just gray. Glad it wasn't a wc nest, because my friend had already pulled the nest out (she's one who thinks bluebirds or nothing--I tried to convince her otherwise). So all is normal.

Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 19:45:47 -0400
From: Susan Brownell brownell"at"klink.net
To: wforres1"at"twcny.rr.com, "bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu" bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: New SparrowSusan Brownell
Southern Adirondacks

Hi Dot: I think it is a white throated sparrow. What do you think? It is bigger than the song sparrow. It's still around. Very distinctive head stripes. I'm waiting for all these winter visitors to get back to their breeding grounds.

My biggest concern now is identifying the female HOSP; and I don't want to do anything to hurt the other, good sparrows. I know the male HOSP down pat (the ugly beast). I guess I'll post this to the list, and ask if anyone has a source of a really good picture of a female HOSP, let me know. Thanks.

...

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:57:45 -0700
From: "W.Guglieri" wendyg"at"jps.net
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Egg ID - HOSPS

Wendy Guglieri
Rescue, California
-in the Sierra Nevada foothills 40 mi. east of Sacramento-
wendyg"at"jps.net

Hello all:

Just returned from visiting my golf course trail where I had a nest with eggs I didn't recognize. (Last week, that is)! Thank you all for your suggestions and comments. When I looked at the nest today - what do you know? The blue speckled eggs that I "knew for certain" were blue - weren't. They were actually gray, not blue.

Perhaps it was the light last week; perhaps I just had a senior moment. At any rate, I have no doubt that it was a HOuse SParrow nest. As I said, this nest which had begun life as a completed WEstern BLuebird nest was then sort of "hollowed out" (I understand that HOSPs like deeper nests) and filled with trash, not just a "little pretty" or two.

At any rate, the eggs and nest are no more. wg

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:09:55 -0400
From: "Bruce Burdett" blueburd"at"srnet.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: $4000.00 !!

To: The Constituency:
On Sunday, April 30, the NY TIMES published an item about two noteworthy bird houses that are being erected in Gramercy Park. Each has six (6) stories and 60 units. They are 35" by 35" at the base, and 40" high. Each cost Gramercy Park four thousand dollars ($4000). They look a little like Purple Martin houses, but they aren't. They are specifically designed and intended to be, and I quote, "sparrow houses". This is just what we need, isn't it? I have written a trenchant letter to the Commission which approved them, urging them to reconsider this asinine project.
The Commission's address is:
Landmarks Preservation Commission
100 Old Slip
New York NY 10005
I am writing a similar letter to the Editor of the TIMES, but I'm not
optimistic about their running it. Bluebird recovery is not one of their
consuming interests.
Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH
blueburd"at"srnet.com

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:37:12 EDT
From: LARKRS4"at"aol.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: ?'s about near mazzzcre by HSP

Hi,

I have some questions about a nest w/5 Bluebirds about 12 days old. Yesterday p.m. I checked the nest and saw there was a recent attack with at
least one baby killed. I removed the nest and took it to a woman who rescues wildlife. It turned out that two babies were killed. She thought that three would make it and would take them to a Vet that helped wildlife. I'll call in a couple of days for an update.

My questions are.....should I have left the nest in the house and let the mother & father BB take care of them? The parents were very confused that
evening. Will the BBs try to nest again in the same box?? I have five others (paired), two occupied by tree swallows. I keep emptying the other
pair when HSPs start nesting. I would appreciate any help.

Kelley Scott
East Granby, CT

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:37:50 -0700
From: "Nicholas A. Zbiciak" nzbiciak"at"gfn.org
To: "'LARKRS4"at"aol.com'" LARKRS4"at"aol.com, "BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: RE: ?'s about near mazzzcre by HSP

If the Blues do nest there again, the sparrows will kill again. You need to eliminate the sparrows.

... 

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:18:52 -0700
From: "Jess" jessb"at"afo.net
To: "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Fw: Comments

Results from Form 1 of Page bbcommentfrm.htmCan anyone help this person?
Send mail to mbachand"at"travelers.com

Email: mbachand"at"travelers.com
FirstName: Michelle
Our Bluebird house with 5 babies has just been invaded by House sparrows. They have killed one and my husband has removed it. He is shooing them away as fast as they return. The others appear wounded and the parents have returned with food only to look in and then fly away. We have contacted the Nature Center in our town and there is nothing they can do. What should we do about the 4 remaining injured babies if the parents don't return.

Haleya Priest Amherst, MA

Hopefully I will not offend anyone but honest to goodness, our neighbor just brought us a piece of cornbread he made with HOSP and EUST eggs!!!!!!!!!!!! :-) H

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:33:35 -0500
From: "Bill Darnell" bdarnel3"at"bellsouth.net
To: hpandtl"at"crocker.com, "BLUEBIRD" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: cornbread with HOSP/EUST eggs!

Yummy, yummy! Wouldn't that go good with a cup of boiled mealworms!
Bill

Haleya Priest Amherst, MA

Hopefully I will not offend anyone but honest to goodness, our neighbor
just brought us a piece of cornbread he made with HOSP and EUST
eggs!!!!!!!!!!!! :-) H

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:46:07 -0400
From: Haleya Priest/Thom Levy hpandtl"at"crocker.com
To: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com, BLUEBIRD BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: cornbread with HOSP/EUST eggs!

WE ARE LOOSING CONTROL!!!!! Thom is growing a black bib, I am growing a beak. OH NO HELP! Thom is on the roof of the house singing away, I can't resist...... If someone doesn't stop us by morning it may be TOO LATE: We are getting the urge to go attack a bluebird house! Please
send boxes of nest material. This is a big nest. Mealworms are of no help........... SEND MILLET PLEASE.

HaHOSPleya

...

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:51:18 -0700
From: Wendell Long mrsimple"at"earthlink.net
To: Bluebird-L"at"Cornell.edu
Subject: Cornbread(off subject)

Dear Haleya,

Would you be so kind to clarify for the rest of us on the list---was that cornbread muffins or pan cornbread. And did it have a sweet taste sorta like honey dew mellon? Did you try it with Smuckers Strawberry Jam! We remain in your debt. Think you so much for all your hard work and for
keeping us so well informed. You may not know I am a cornbread aficionado and your neighbor pricked my interest.

Back when I was in the services of the Air Force of the US of A and lived in St John's, Newfoundland, after a day of rowing in our Dory and bringing
home a good mess of Squid(a ten armed cephalopod)we sat down to a great meal of cornbread muffin and buttermilk and our chef would always garnish with one squid eyeball on the center top of the muffin for a gourmet look and a reminder that a one eyed squid is better than no squid at all of
course. They called us Newfies along with the local residents and never understood the squid jiggers point of reference in life. Much as some of the misunderstanding at times among people of differing backgrounds on the bluebird list. Two things I have learned you gota walk in the shoes of a
Bedford Limestone Cutter and a Newfoundland fisherman to appreciate the good life of a cornbread addict. I envy you having such fine persons as
neighbors. Please give them my fondest regards. Thank you again.

Sincerely,
Wendell Long, former
exchairman of the
good neighbor policy.

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:58:15 -0400
From: "Katherine S. Wolfthal" kate"at"nirvana.ziplink.net
To: Bluebird-L Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: cornbread with HOSP/EUST eggs!

Well, at least they can serve some useful purpose!

3 questions:
How many did he have to use???
Did you eat it??
Was it good?

...

--
Katherine
Weston, MA
-------------
kate"at"nirvana.ziplink.net

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:47:30 EDT
From: "Rwatts" rwatts"at"mymailstation.com
To: bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: cornbread with HOSP/EUST eggs!

sniff Really. Such goings on. And in public.

All I can say, Haleya, is that if I find that either one of you has forced your way into one of MY boxes, I shall  have NO mercy. Cricket will help me deal with you.

Rhonda
ROFL
WTAH (with tears and hiccups)

...

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:08:22 -0400
From: "D.H. Snook 40:53N 81:35W Canal Fulton, OH (NE)" dhsnook"at"sssnet.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Cute Little House Sparrow

Hi List:

Today I checked one of my trails and saw the subject of this note peeking out of my Bluebird house that only 2 days ago had 5 Tree Swallow (TRES) chicks, 16 days old. Then, as I approached, he came out on the roof, cheerfully singing.

Three dead TRES chicks were in the box. Two more were on the ground under the box. My main worry is that 2 Eastern Bluebirds (EABL) have built a nest in the paired box, probably their second nesting from some place else.

Earlier in the season, I had trapped and disposed of 2 pair of HOSP from this box. I guess the job never ends. The HOSP refused to enter the box today, now with a Bolt trap. I had removed the TRES nest and dead chicks. Will try tomorrow when Mr. HOSP has started the nest

I'm sorry about this not being the first or the fifteenth, but I just couldn't wait to share this for all you folks that think that this is nature's way.

Doug Snook

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:11:42 -0500
From: "Bill Darnell" bdarnel3"at"bellsouth.net
To: dhsnook"at"sssnet.com, "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Cute Little House Sparrow

Doug, you will find them easier to trap AFTER their nest is started, even easier when the nest has eggs. Sparrow control is a never ending pursuit. Never let up!

Bill Darnell, Savannah, TN
Lat: 35:18:32.407N
Lon 88:10:31.368W
Ag Zone 7-8

...

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:45:27 -0500
From: "Tom Lamon"
To: "bblist"
Subject: Those stinking HOSP's

I must be reading this list to often or something. Last night I dreampt that a HOSP showed up in my yard, and I frantically went chasing it around the yard. Then, today, at a stable I just started to work for I had been watching the barn swallows, and I heard a cheep from the rafters behind me. I turned, thinking to get a good look at a barn swallow, and I saw a HOSP sitting on the rafters! I was pretty disguisted. And I don't even have any blues to be worried about. I hope you professionals don't get this paradoid, or you must go crazy!

Addie of Eagle River WI

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:57:44 EDT
From: TomGaryH"at"aol.com
To: cindy3"at"newnorth.net, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Those stinking HOSP's

Some of the more experienced birders calmly carry out schemes they have worked out to eliminate and/or drastically reduce house sparrows in their  birding areas. Its a normal part of their activities, the details and stories  of which are often amusing and fascinating. Hopefully, information on egg  switching, wing clipping, etc., will, when appropriate, be volunteered. In the meantime we can as tactfully as possible spread the word on how competitive and dangerous these birds are to other birds. We can ask that our neighbors not feed baked goods and certain grains that attract these buggers. For back yard birders, we can learn about and have handy a effective nestbox trap. And, of course, proper disposal of French fries will help in this cause too.

Tom

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