Problems with house sparrows on the bluebird trail (Part 17)

HOSP (House Sparrow) Philosophies, Press/Public relations, Children, etc.

Also see other HOSP information under Active Control, Passive Control, Lime, General, Disposal, Predator Identification, etc.

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: 

• Minimum diameter for House Sparrow entry by Frank Navratil
• House Sparrows by Steve Eno
• The Active and Passive Bluebirders by Bluebird Bob Walshaw and Jim McLochlin

From: Maynard Sumner [mailto:m-r-sumner"at"juno.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005
Subject: Re: [birders] (Chat): Looming extinction of House Sparrows

This is from the U of M Birders list. ...

Maynard Sumner
Flint, MI

www.mibluebirdsociety.com

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
This was posted to MASSBIRDS on Thursday:

**************************************************

Subject: Imminent extinction of the House Sparrow?
From: "rsheil"
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:08:49 -0500

According to Breeding Bird Survey (BBS) data, House Sparrows have undergone a 66% decline in North America since 1966.
See:

http://www.cbcunlocked.com/artman/publish/article_482.shtml.

Also, In a newly released study, international House Sparrow experts utilizing complicated mathematical modeling predict that absent bold action the once familiar and omnipresent House Sparrow faces CERTAIN extinction (boldfacing
mine) by 2011, just about five years from now.

The reasons for the decline are apparently
multifaceted. However,
according to the papers authors, over the past two decades their has been a growing reticence among increasingly overweight patrons of American fast food restaurants to share their fries with attendant flocks of sparrows in parking lots. Although their diet is in fact varied, the authors point out that during the winter at least, House Sparrows are somewhat French fry specialists, and are largely dependent upon these sites for survival. "The science is clearly there, and the recent statistical declines have been directly correlated to the recent diminished sharing by patrons at fast food establishments, which was apparently not he case in the 1970's and 80's", the authors write. Furthermore, since 1975 some 10% of these establishments have moved inside malls where scraps are totally inaccessible to the birds, further escalating the decline. The 66% decline documented by BBS data over the past forty years was also recently confirmed by aerial surveys over some
356 BK's and Mac Donald's in the Northeast during the winters of 2002 and 2004.

The study also demonstrated that individual sparrows must put on a minimum of eight grams of fat (equivalent of three large fries) subcutaneously during the winter in order to maintain them later through the rigors of the breeding cycle. Without the protection of these critical sites extinction is certain.

Another often overlooked factor in their decline locally, said one researcher, is the recent increase of the Eastern Bluebird in the Northeast.
The increase in the bluebird population has put added pressure on the sparrows in regard to competition for limited nest
sites: "when House
Sparrows are repeatedly forced to dispatch individual bluebirds in nest boxes, the added energy costs to the sparrows in doing so often lead to lower clutch sizes and higher mortality among their young".

Who among us hasn't enjoyed the incessant "Chirp, Chirp. Chirp" of a pandering flock of House Sparrows on a blustery February, probably the earliest sign of Spring, while grabbing a quick lunch during a day of birding? Without the protection of these critical sites, and sharing of fries, again, extinction is certain.

What we can do :

1. Lobby Congress to pass FFPA: The Fast Food Protection Act (details on the web).

2. Put out nest boxes for the sparrows with specifications that will discourage bluebirds, tree swallows, etc.

3. Share your fries!

Richard Heil
S. Peabody, MA

[Note from webmaster: It is assumed that this posting was "tongue in cheek" (i.e., author was not serious. Apparently the article originated on a temporary Canadian site that also featured a story about a restaurant installing containers in restrooms for used hypodermic needles. However, some birders took it literally, and a series of emails over the controversy from BBL are not included here.]

I took this to be fairly tongue-in-cheek. I *always* enjoy incessant chirping, just like i enjoy my neighbor dog's incessant barking. :-)

My one comment is that if the lack of fries were the main factor in this decline, there would be no "CERTAIN extinction" since the southern half of the country has very mild winters.

We should be interested in the causes of this decline.
How much of it is caused by changes in agricultural practices? How much is caused by activities of nest box monitors? What factors are affecting these "townie" birds that also affect the native birds we all love? If there *is* a major environmental change (or whatever) that is affecting such a hardy, adaptable bird, that bodes very ill for *all* bird species.

House Sparrows are an introduced species here, & i rank them with zebra mussels & garlic mustard. If i lived in Europe, i *would* be concerned -- & i would have every right to be.

Torrey Moss
Kalamazoo Nature Center
Kalamazoo, MI

... I thought I'd share this info about a lawsuit in CT that could potentially impact the ability to control other non-natives, such as house sparrows or starlings. The CT DEP and Audubon Society have been supportive of both passive and active monk parakeet control methods to date. (The birds in question were captured and euthanized by the USDA).

This animal rights group opposes any approach involving euthanasia. They feel the birds are cute and that because they've established themselves in the area, they've earned the right to stay. (Monk parakeets are not currently protected under federal law.) I don't expect that monk parakeets threaten cavity nesters other than perhaps competing for food, or disrupting the ecosystem in general.

Bet from CT
May all your blues be birds!

--------

Animal rights group to sue over birds
Phil Helsel, Register Staff
01/14/2006

NEW HAVEN - The Darien-based animal rights group Friends of Animals was unsuccessful in preventing United Illuminating Co.'s extermination of hundreds of monk parakeets last year, but it hopes a lawsuit soon to be filed at Superior Court in New Haven prevents a similar roundup in the future.
Friends of Animals President Priscilla Feral said her group is seeking an injunction to prevent the utility company from tearing down monk parakeet nests and killing the birds, as UI did as part of a six-week program last fall.

The complaint, supplied to the New Haven Register by the group, claims that UI fails to "dissuade"
the birds from nesting on utility poles using nonlethal means and that continued extermination could violate state law protecting natural resources.

"We want a judgment that requires UI to maintain their utility poles," Feral said. "Otherwise we're going to have a repeat performance; they ignore the nests for eight years and then tear them down and gas the birds."

UI tore down 103 nests from West Haven to Stratford last November and turned over about 200 birds to the U.S. Department of Agriculture for extermination. It then adopted a moratorium on its monk parakeet program that expired at the end of 2005.

The utility company claims the birds' large, communal nests, which can weigh more than 200 pounds and are often built atop utility poles, can cause fires and interruptions in service. UI spokesman Al Carbone said that the company is still looking for a more humane way to deal with the problem, but so far the solutions either haven't worked or are too expensive.

Feral and other parakeet supporters, such as state Rep. Richard Roy, D-Milford, say UI could get rid of the birds by tearing down the nests as they are built, but Carbone said that they've done that only to see the birds return. And while squirrels are to blame for about 90 percent of all power outages caused by animals, Carbone said that the company can't prevent squirrels from coming in contact with live wires and transformers.

"(Monk parakeet nests) are outages we can control," Carbone said. "Squirrels we can't control because they walk on the wires. They don't build nests on top of transformers."

Feral said Friends of Animals is supporting local efforts to build platforms on private property for the birds to build nests on instead of utility poles. UI received the same suggestion but discounted it, as well as several other suggestions that Carbone called "ridiculous," such as building fake utility poles for the birds, painting poles different colors, or using fake owls to scare parakeets away.

Manchester lawyer Derek Oatis wrote the lawsuit; he could not be reached for comment Friday. The complaint says monk parakeets have become "enmeshed in the native ecosystem" over the last 30 to 40 years they have been in the state, and that any eradication by UI would destroy the natural resources of Connecticut.

Monk parakeets, originally from South America, are believed to have arrived in the Northeast in the 1960s, when a container of the birds broke at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. The species survived a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service attempt at eradication in the 1970s and can now be found all over the United States, from Alabama and Texas to New England, according to the Institute of Biological Invaders at the University of Tennessee.

Monk parakeets are very common in Florida and have caused problems for Florida Light & Power for years, Carbone said. Because the Florida utility has already spent considerable time and money studying the problem there, he said the UI plans to consult with the Florida utility while trying to develop a humane way to deal with parakeets here.

"Every time we call them with an idea they say, 'Tried that, it doesn't work,'" Carbone said.

From: RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com [mailto:RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: OT Quaker Parrots in Connecticut

What is going on in Connecticutt is appalling.

1. Quaker Parrots are intelligent and very sensitive birds. Simple observation shows cuddling and preening beyond just the mating season. From my observations they are more intelligent and affectionate than Bluebirds, and other birds and even cats and dogs. All of these deserve our love and respect.

2. This issue of them not being native is nonsense. All Americans are not native except what we call Indians and they probably came from somewhere else too.

3. The power companies routinely prune trees etc to free up power lines. Why can't EARLY dismantling of Quaker houses before they get big be a part of that? Why do lovable Quaker parrots get the death penalty for power company laxity and cheapness?

Ron
Brooksville, FL

Ron, et al. --

This is again, one of those mixed bag issues. I like Quakers, from a pet bird standpoint. But in the wild, they are essentially no different than any other non-native species issue that has been raised here in the past...
save one -- they create trouble associated with "things" some people value, and other people don't put the same "price" on that "item" (i.e.
powerlines/poles).

The power company has the responsibility to insure that their customers are capable of receiving the power they sign-up for. The company incures the cost of line and pole maintenance, and it takes a large effort even on the schedule they currently employ to keep the roosts off the poles. Likely, if they were to attack the problem earlier, it would be an easier task to remove them but it would take a much increased "constant" effort than currently in practice... likely meaning an increase in cost. If all the customers agreed to foot that bill, then it would be a great approach.

Consider another spin on this topic... if the Quakers were attacking bluebird & other cavity nest boxes and killing nestlings and adults, what would be the "evaluation" of this species. Bluebirders everywhere would likely be up in arms, just as the case with HOSP & starlings tends to be.

The basic fact is that these quakers are non-native, no matter how or what arguments arise that they have naturalized. People always consider a non-native bad when it is detrimental to something they value, and just quietly ignore those that have little or no impact on things they care little for. Some general common examples:
Problems -- kudzu, cogon grass, HOSP/starlings (to some), nutria, fire ants
Ignored -- fescue, many ornamental plants, Corbicula, outdoor cats Many states do not allow Quakers (and many other species) to be kept as pets b/c of the potential for there to be problems should they escape.

It comes down most often to value and money. Sad that it does, but it does.
My major point lastly would be, not to spend all of that money on monotonous lawsuits, but take it and partner with the power-companies to create a program that will actually do something beneficial OUTSIDE not just on paper. The lawsuit may stop the nest destruction for the time being, but that doesn't actually manage the situation longterm. Eventually there are going to be other consequences... which typically just mean even more money than it would have cost to do things "constructively" from the beginning.

Just putting out some more things to consider. I like Quakers too, but the issue like others associated with wildlife, habitat, conservation, and management is bigger than just me and what I value. --J

Jimmy Dodson
Asst Forest Manager -- NCSU Dept of Forestry NCSU Hill Forest P.O. Box 71 Rougemont, NC 27572

From: mrtony8 [mailto:philip.berry"at"mchsi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: OT Quaker Parrots in Connecticut

To euthanize these birds borders on criminal, in MHO. Especially when one considers there are flocks of them continent wide, the most famous being in San Francisco. They are named individuals there, with someone always observing them. These are intelligent animals who deserve more than gas. I am sick. Most of you know I live with an Amazon Parrot, and she has allowed my wife and I to be a part of her flock. To think that she could be gassed because it is inconvenient for someone else is beyond the pale. AND, she is a secondary cavity nester in her native Mexico, using holes in palm trees for nesting.

Phil Berry, Gulf Breeze, Florida

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas a warm 54*F overnight We all rely on electricity and birds cause a lot of power outages. Large vultures, eagles and hawks sometimes short out the power when flying between wires or trying to land on the wires or on top of power poles.

In many areas the pileated woodpeckers and flickers will hammer out a home in the wood poles destroying the strength of the pole and the next big wind storm or the next ice storm will snap off the pole. In the south it is common practice for the power companies to wrap the wood poles top to bottom with the hard wire mesh called "hardware cloth" this protects the poles from woodpecker damage where lines run through wooded areas. All species of woodpeckers will hammer out homes in these power poles.

According to AEP/Swepco my provider of electricity the squirrels in my yard have blown the fuse on my transformer 9 times knocking out power to 56 houses each time. We feed birds and squirrels and they use the power pole with the transformer as a tree bridge to reach the line of trees connecting my house with the wooded creek bottom.

The Monk Parakeets In Connecticut have been credited with knocking out the power 7>9 times a year according to some reports, probably a lot more often.
There are nearly 4 million people in this state. It is pretty common for car accidents to take out power poles and create power outages.

I don't know about the northeast but AEP pays a tree trimming company to trim trees in Mt. Pleasant year round to keep up with the fast growing trees. They maintain four bucket trucks and four chippers and 10 to 12 men just to stay even with the tree growth. Each truck can chip the 10 yard dump beds full of chips in 2 to 3 days depending on the type tree limbs they cut.
They try to cut around EVERY power line in this city of 13,000 every five years. I compost some of the truck loads of chips for them and get several hundred truckloads a year, four already this week and four last week. If the electric utility companies really wanted to save money they would make it illegal to plant any tree or vine anywhere near the power lines.

I talked with one of the tree trimmers yesterday and the federal government is paying the power companies right now to pay more tree trimmers to clear more limbs away from power systems so we don't have such widespread disasters when storms blow through like the hurricanes this past year.

A more interesting read on birds doing damage to a particular industry is the articles on birds striking planes. The cavity nesters, vultures and starlings do a lot of damage but there is a report of a hawk or eagle that dropped a cat into the engine of a jet several thousand feet in the air.

I have never heard of bluebirds causing a major power outage but they often nest in the cavities in power poles that woodpeckers hammer out. The poles in this area are creosote treated but the smell and this coal oil do not keep them from using this type location. KK

It’s unfortunate that monk parakeets were accidentally released. I read that a crate broke in a NY airport and a flock escaped. Also, it appears that some pet owners have grown tired of them and released them into the wild. Their nests on utility poles have apparently caused power outages and fires.

Yes, they are intelligent and beautiful birds. However, in my opinion, looks can not be a criterion.
In the 1850’s, people thought house sparrows were cute (and many people still feel this way – some of whom do not recognize the harm they cause.) The issue is that exotic plants and animals can devastate ecosystems, choking out native species. In this country, three million acres are lost each year to invasive plants because they lack co-evolved competitors and natural enemies to control their populations. Feral and house cats have contributed to the extinction of at least 22 birds on islands like Hawaii. I wonder how many times we need to learn this lesson.

Just like the introduction of HOSP, humans created the problem, and I believe humans should take responsibility for correcting their blunder. Euthanizing wildlife is always a difficult and controversial step. It is also often the most effective and economical, long-term control method. I do believe that euthanasia is an OPTION that should be considered as a potential means to control further spread and damage by non-native birds. Of course all effective available methods, both passive (e.g., deterrents) and aggressive (e.g., removal of nests) should be also be considered. In the case of monk parakeets, I have read that many of these methods were employed (I don't know how
well) and were determined to be ineffective. I defer to state and federal wildlife professionals to recommend the most appropriate actions to take on this difficult issue.

The problem is that it can take decades or even centuries to realize the extent of the impact that non-native species can have on the environment. Ecosystems are complex and sensitive. The longer we wait to address a problem, the harder, more expensive, and less effective appropriate control
methods will be.

Bet from CT

Most likely these birds will expand their territory because of global warming. Will they improve the survivability of our native birds ? What will be the situation 50 years from now when the north american climate is warmer than now ?

Bill Freels, Paducah, Ky.

The best solution would be to put all the power lines underground. That would also prevent a host of other problems, like iced-up tree limbs falling on the wires & cars crashing into the poles. Plus, it'd be much prettier without all the wires around.

However, there's so much stuff already underground that *adding* the power lines would be very difficult & expensive. (For construction in new areas, this is not an issue.) Then you'd get problems like tree roots & burrowing animals, & fixing a broken line would involve *carefully* digging it up.

The problem with monk parakeets is that they're smart & cute & little. Wolves, who are also smart & cute, are big predators & don't evoke as much sympathy. I enjoy seeing monk parakeets when i'm in downtown Chicago, & i always look for wolves when i'm up north.
(I have yet to see any, but my mom has.) However, i am not qualified to make management decisions for either species, especially since i don't live where either of them are.

Torrey Wenger
Kalamazoo Nature Center
Kalamazoo, MI

Could someone please explain how it's OK to exterminate HOSP but it's 'appalling' to exterminate these quaker parrots? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
Don't get me wrong. I believe in exterminating HOSP. Based on the reasons that many of us understand about their being non-native and such.

So, why is one bird disposable but another, which is also non-native "just to cute and lovable" to exterminate. If they don't belong here and they are damaging in any way to native species then it stands to reason that they need to be removed. The easiest way most would choose to do that his extermination.

However, if folks feel so strongly about not killing them then maybe they could pony up the cash to trap them and relocate them back to where they belong. Nothing like putting your money where your mouth is.

Cindy
Lansing, MI

In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:53:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, beetlecat812"at"yahoo.com writes:

Could someone please explain how it's OK to exterminate HOSP but it's 'appalling' to exterminate these quaker parrots?

Yes, Cindy I will. There is a world of difference between the species.

1. HOSP and EUST are an infestation throughout the North American Continent. It is well documented that they bump out other cavity nesters and even attack and kill a wide variety of these causing a decline in their numbers. I have witnessed a Starling kill a nesting Red Bellied Woodpecker. Quaker parrots do no harm to other species other than competing at bird feeders which is no big deal.

2. This idea of a species being "native" is an illusion. What is native? How long does an immigrant have to be here to be native? Europeans and Afro Americans are not native to North America. Early European settlers always resented the later immigrants. This mentality is fantastically being applied to birds. Even the EABL may have migrated years ago.

Where do you draw the lines for "native" anyway? Global warming is moving birds (EABL included) northward to where they are not "native" so should we put a bounty on them too?

3. Keeping things "native" is unnatural and a lost cuase. Non-native Humans are bringing intrusions everywhere through commerce. Every day Trucks,Boats and planes bring in intruders and disrupt the native balance worldwide. This in addition to cutting down native forests and replacing with farmland and shopping mauls.

Quakers are tough, smart and lovable. And they can't really be stopped. But it is sick to give them the death penalty for no crime.

Ron
Brooksville, Fl

From: Doogelbery"at"aol.com [mailto:Doogelbery"at"aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: OT Quaker Parrots in Connecticut / Food for thought

Cindy,
Some thoughts on your thoughts. I think we associate some of the qualities of birds, with the quality of people and things we like or dislike about other people. We in the good Ole USA seem to think it is OK to have some people from certain countries come here, while doing what we can to keep other nationalities out, perceived on what we think about the people from those countries... We find the colors, beauty, personalities and intelligence of the Quaker Parrots to our liking, a lot of the same qualities we may look for in a person or a people. HOSP do not only not have those qualities, but have less desirable ones. Would we be as excited about Blue Birds if they were ugly and didn't exhibit qualities we adored, native birds or not? In spite of what thought or law we hide behind, it sometimes just comes down to whether we like a particular kind or not.
Just food for some thought.
Doug Coggeshall
Kensington, Maryland

Most likely these birds will expand their territory because of global warming. Will they improve the survivability of our native birds ? What will be the situation 50 years from now when the north american climate is warmer than now ?

Bill Freels, Paducah, Ky.

From: mrtony8 [mailto:philip.berry"at"mchsi.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: parrots

You are making assertions that are not scientifically proven, some may call it junk science, or worse, politics....but to stick to the birds, these parrots don't harm any other birds. They are intelligent, and comparatively easy to train (or they train you, maybe). It would be much better to put them into an aviary in a zoo rather than give them the death penalty. Some time when you have nothing better to do, go to a quality store that handles nothing but parrots. You may end up enjoying them.
AND-------my Amazon is a CAVITY NESTER (secondary) who has to compete for her nest site with all the others.
Phil Berry

This subject is going to continue to increase in intensity, just as all of the other similarly based do.

If everyone will remember what I wrote the other day, it comes down to what people value. HOSP and starlings are detrimental to BB's and other cavity-nesters... therefore, many people take an initiative to curb any damage these species do. Quakers are a different situation -- there's obviously a different value set placed on them -- some people don't see a problem, others do.

As far as the "native" vs. "non-native" context goes.

1. You have to look at it from an ecological standpoint. First, that means the arguments in the context of humans being native or non-native is irrelevant... because this is an ecological discussion and not one about "nationality" -- humans are pretty much non-native on a global scale... the general connotation refers to the niche and developmental requirements/presence for ecosystem support. Human presence & activities grossly "muddy the water" on this issue (fire adapted ecosystems is a good example). This discussion could fill volumes of philosophical text.

2. There's no real way to put a DATE on how or when something is "native"... that's a nice little sticky point humans like to have... irrefutable, solid bounds... nature doesn't work that way. If you're going to apply a date, and say that b/c the quakers/monks have been here since ~1960, then they can be classified as "native"... you have to first classify HOSP as native in that they've been in NAmer since ~1850ish. When do you start classifying the red-footed falcon at Martha's vineyard as native?

This is why I've said, if the "non-native" is invasive or destructive, people are all for "removal". If it's not...

What I am getting at is the circumstances do not hold an easy answer -- nothing in natural resource management is. The situation has various points of view, and it is the task of those involved to resolve the matter.

Currently the approach has been to euthanize them. If some other procedure or course of action will work, is more favorable (for everyone), or is more desired, then by all means propose it. It's been said here before that circumstances vary widely, and that we should approach things openly and reasonably in a manner that best manage our own situations -- and adaptation and change are part of the program.

That's part of the fun/interest in being involved with all of this stuff...
no one ever has all the answers, and those we do stumble upon many times take a heck of a lot of work. But there's always another to find! :) --J

Jimmy Dodson
Asst Forest Manager -- NCSU Dept of Forestry
NCSU Hill Forest

Great point, as Jimmy always and others also make. I think these "cute" birds are from southern South America and don't need global warming to advance north of the equator. Armadillos are moving into northern Georgia. Too bad they don't eat Kudzu. Purple loosestrife was sold as an ornamental pond plant for a long time in New York State. I love cats, but know they might be shot if caught invading a bluebird house. Everything is relative. It isn't the house sparrow's fault that they find themselves here, but we all know the consequences. Jimmy is so right! I don't see any comments here about the decline of native mussels, earthworms, honey bees or sturgeons. They aren't as beautiful as bluebirds, but are just as important a part of the ecosystems where everything is interrelated.

What does everyone think about re-introducing cheetahs to N. America? It would keep natural selection from weeding out the pronghorn's sprinting ability. Food for thought for this thoughtful group.

Thanks, Rob Barron-Woodstock, Georgia 

From: Autumn L. Kruer [mailto:autumnk"at"iglou.com]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: OT Quaker Parrots in Connecticut

I think it all depends upon what kind of damage the species does to natural species. I don’t know enough about this parrot to say one way or another what impact it may have. I do know the red fox and the pheasant have adapted well to the Americas without much problem (however, many will point out seeing a native silver/gray fox is becoming very rare), unlike the HOSP and starling who decimate other cavity-nesters.

Autumn in Kentucky

From: beetle cat [mailto:beetlecat812"at"yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 2:55 PM
Subject: OT quaker parrots-sterilization?

Here's about the last thing I have to say about this topic.  Everyone has an opinion on it.  Nobody is completely wrong or right but I think that when we make decisions on situations like this our motives have to be based on a higher purpose than just our like or dislike of a particular species.  We do not have the wisdom to determine what species is harmless and which is not.  With that in mind, I always think it's best to not introduce a species.  And to actively try to reverse the situation if it does occur.

Anyway, I was thinking (and I'm sure there are people far smarter than me working on these things) could the Quakers be caught, sterilized and released?

Is it possible to capture these birds in significant enough numbers, sterilize them through some quick means (say, injection), band them so it's apparent that they've been sterilized, and released back to their flock?

This seems like it would satisfy those that do not believe in euthanasia.  Or are there folks who feel like the Quakers also have a right to procreate?

The Quakers could be handled in a similar fashion as those trying to control feral cat populations.  No killing, just sterilization.

Maybe groups like "Friends of Animals"  could fund such projects and provide volunteer efforts in the capturing and sterilization rather than wasting money and resources on lawsuits.

Just an idea I had.  I don't think the Quakers should be allowed to reproduce and spread.  At least by sterilizing them they could continue on with their parrot lives but eventually, the population would die out.

Cindy
Lansing, MI

From: RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com [mailto:RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:55 PM
Subject: OT Black hooded parakeets (Nanday Conures)

Hi all,

Its winter so we may discuss all kinds of things to fight the cold until the action starts in Spring.

After all the discussion on Quaker Parrots, I thought I would point out the futility of wishing for a static unchanging world in a world that has always changed and will continue to change.

In addition to the wonderful Quaker parrots, there are other "nonnative" parrots that have moved to North America. Similar in size, shape and color except for their black hoods are the Black hooded parakeets or Nanday Conures. They differ in that they are cavity nesters instead of condo builders like the Quakers. They require entrance holes far too big to be a threat to EABL.

Nanday Conures are from South America too, but have colonized California, Florida, Hawaii, Texas, New York and Puerto Rico. Down here in Florida I seem to see more of them than Quakers. To see these go to:

http://www.dartscape.com/birds/bh-parakeet.htm

Ron
Brooksville, FL

...

All this debate about the gory details of culling invasive species puzzles me. All living things have value and can probably find a human who thinks they are cute, even where they don’t belong. I didn’t think this was just a place to discuss the cute little, aesthetically pleasing, cheerful singing little members of the Turdidae family. I’m a firm believer in conservation biology, and in the few remaining pristine areas on this earth, all wildlife needs is to be protected from “US”. But those places are few and far between, and most “wildlife issues: arise from people encroaching on wildlife habitat or introducing species that haven’t evolved in the ecological community to achieve a balance between predators and prey. House sparrows, European starlings, and rock doves are opportunistic species that interfere with the nest success of our native species.

The ideal solution to the lack of cavity nests is so complex that I won’t go deep into it. It’s impossible to kill all the house sparrows and no nest box is house sparrow proof. Wildlife management is really about managing the human/wildlife interaction to deal with mostly human induced problems. It involves tough decisions about killing rabid raccoons, deer with chronic wasting disease, mountain lions and grizzly bears that develop a taste for livestock, pets, or humans, increased hunting limits on snow geese that are destroying the whole tundra ecosystem (probably from global warming and increased survivorship over-wintering on human crop residues. Invasive species are almost always introduced by man (try to find a native fish in most North American waters that isn’t threatened or endangered by brown trout from Europe or Asian carp, or gobies from Black Sea ballast water, just to name a few).

If people here are offended by discussing the control of invasive species like house sparrows, then this is just a place to discuss “cute birds: Humans created the problem, and if one believes God gave us dominion over the animals, then with it comes our responsibility to practice sound wildlife management.

My personal opinion is that house sparrow, pigeon, and European starling control needs to be looked at from a food source. The family farm is vanishing, so now the food source (and roost site) is the bird seed isle at your favorite home improvement store, or the nest location is behind the big W on the wall at your favorite “super center”. Do they do anything about the issue, other than sell cheaply made, overpriced bluebird nest boxes and crappy bird feeders?

My hope is that house sparrows and starlings will be implicated in the spread of avian flu (not so far-fetched an idea given their worldwide spread in close association with readily available food from human agricultural practices. Then, maybe our country will dedicate some resources to protect us (who are far from endangered or threatened) that will benefit the innocent wildlife we’ve impacted so greatly.

Just my longwinded two cents,
Thanks.
Rob Barron-Woodstock, Georgia

Charlene Anchor
Central Illinois

I appreciate Linda Violett's reference to checking out the Bluebird-L Archives for information about trapping and any other problems regarding the HOSP. After the last heated discussion took place, the administrators closed down Bluebird-L for a couple of days and, when we opened up again, they requested that we do not talk about HOSP in the future since everything we needed to know was in the Archives. Anyone seeking information could go to the Archives. I don't care if we talk about them or not but I think we should be following the rules. (If I misunderstood the "rules", I would appreciate being told.) People new to Bluebird-L may not realize this and so referring them to the Archives would be necessary.

I would like to see some clarification of the rules regarding HOSP discussion myself. I don't necessarily feel it's reasonable for a mailing list devoted to Bluebird conservation to have a rule against discussing one of the main reasons why Bluebird numbers dwindled so alarmingly during the early part of the 1900's, or what we as Bluebird trail monitors or Bluebird landlords can do to reverse that trend. On the other hand, some people seem to delight in getting into the "nitty-gritty", and I certainly agree that such lurid discussions should be kept off-list.

I found the post Tina wrote after the last discussion that caused the list to be shut down. She wrote:

"We have asked people in the past to not discuss the *intricate details* of House Sparrow elimination because many find it offensive."

and ...

"If someone really wants the gory details, they should ask for it OFFLIST."

I didn't interpret that to mean that we can't discuss, in general terms, the need for House Sparrow Control - just that we shouldn't discuss details of elimination - those who want this information can be directed to the archives at http://www.birds.cornell.edu/bluebirds/hosp.htm.

Perhaps I need an adjustment in my understanding of the rules. Can we not discuss trapping? I think of trapping - how to trap, when to trap, what to use as bait, the humane treatment of decoys, etc. as a very general type of discussion. I was under the impression that what was proscribed against was the detailed discussion of how to deal with those HOSP once they were caught. Am I wrong?

Cher

In the past, Birders have put in the subject line something like Graphic
HOSP so people who didn't want to read anything graphic would know to
delete.

Dottie, Hickory Hollow
Brown County, Indiana

Charlene Anchor
Central Illinois
Cher and Bluebirders,

I certainly could be remembering it wrong. I thought we were not supposed to talk about them at all. We didn't for a long time and so I was surprised when people started again. Obviously we need a clarification about it since we are remembering it differently!

This seems like a reasonable approach to me. New information does come along from time to time, which may not be included in the archives, and this is certainly a valid topic when discussing native cavity nesters.

Kate Arnold, Paris , TX

Dear fellow ornithologists,

I think I remember seeing a figure from the "powers that be" that there are between four hundred and five hundred subscribers to this discussion site (nationwide). I know more enthusiastic blue birders from a couple of counties in New York where I used to live, and where Cornell is, by the way.
Who makes the rules here? Obviously it isn't someone concerned about the true issues.

I'm going to start my own discussion group. Email me at rebarron"at"gmail.com if you're interested. I've had enough of control freaks and censorship. You don't have to quit this list to join a new one, and this group's rules about "no flaming" are sensible, but snotty reminders to "new members" about the rules about participating in a group of less than 500 members smells of an "inclusive clique". How would one know that they were a "new member:

I'd be interested in what others have to say.

Rob Barron-Woodstock, Georgia

From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor"at"msn.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: House Sparrow discussion

Rob,

It was not my intention to upset anyone but to avoid a possible problem. We do need a clarification. As far as new members, if HOSP were asked not to be talked about, then when someone asked they could be referred to the Archives, new member or old. If something new comes up that would be informative it seems that that would be worth discussing. But I'm not the one making the rules.

Charlene

<I found the post Tina wrote after the last discussion that caused the
list to be shut down. She wrote:

"We have asked people in the past to not discuss the *intricate
details*
of House Sparrow elimination because many find it offensive."

and ...

"If someone really wants the gory details, they should ask for it
OFFLIST.">

This is exactly how the 'warning' was worded. Basically we are not supposed
to discuss the methods and details of dispatching them. Discussion of trap
styles, placement, strategies, bait, decoys, etc. SHOULD still be acceptable.
However, I get the feeling that some sensitive individuals will still
find fault with discussing these topics. Because really, they're agenda is to
stop people from controlling the HOSP. But by causing problems on this list all
it accomplishes is stopping the discussion of doing so. People who feel it is
necessary will still do it and will discuss it off list.

To me, if there is a more humane way to do dispatch them, that I may not be aware
of, wouldn't it be better to have an open forum where I could learn of such technique.
Placing limits on the exchange of information will only ensure that folks remain ignorant
on certain topics and may not be using the most humane methods possible.

But that in a nutshell is how I remember the 'warning'. We just can't discuss
means of dispatch. If the 'rules' on the list get much more restrictive than that
I think I'll have to unsubscribe. Next thing you know we won't be able to talk about
hole restrictors because it's unfair to woodpeckers. ;-)

Cindy
Lansing, MI

Also if everyone would get "The Bluebird Monitor's Guide"
you could find almost anything you need to know abut Bluebirds.

Maynard Sumner
Flint, MI

www.mibluebirdsociety.com

Hi Cher,

Your interpretation is correct. You can discuss House Sparrow control, I just ask that the details regarding elimination techniques be left out. If someone wants the details, they can ask for them off list.

Thanks, Tina Phillips

Rob,

I want to make sure another point of view is represented in this discussion, without ascribing views to anyone else. In general and in particular I respectfully disagree with the philosophy "doing nothing would be worse."

I live in Baltimore City, and I do not trap - I don't have the stomach for it. Our trail is in Baltimore County, near housing developments, horse farms, farmettes, a restaurant and a golf course. If we get HOSP in a box, I deal with them as I've been taught by the people on this list - basically I catch the hen on the nest before dawn and set a trap for the male. I do not relocate them.

I'll kill them if I have to. But after two or three years of finding HOSP, I remove the boxes in that area. Yes, HOSP, you win!

Folks who trap for the sake of trapping, knowing they're trying to empty the lake with a thimble, I suppose are contributing to the general good in a small way. But if they're maintaining nestboxes, knowing that a native bird may occupy the cavity, they are setting that native bird pair up for destruction. That is not doing more good than harm, in my view. If we could ask the bluebird adults and nestlings: "do you mind sacrificing your lives for the sake of extending bluebirds' territory?" I think they'd say, "you're darn right I mind. If you don't have a reasonable expectation that we'll be safe, don't provide the cavity." If "my" birds get killed and their death was predictable, that's my fault.

I believe that it's possible in some cases to cleanse an area of HOSP and reduce the likelihood of deadly HOSP competition, even though I'm not interested in doing that. But I don't think nestboxes should be put up until that's done. As I say, not trying to assume or ascribe anything, I just think that point of view should be represented in the discussion.

Paul in Baltimore

From: T LINEHAN [mailto:gtlinehan"at"msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:18 AM
Subject: HELP Audubon Society Giving Bad Advise

Help! Need advice on how to handle the Audubon Society.

Over the weekend I went to a growers market here in Grants Pass, OR
and the Audubon Society was there. They had nest boxes for purchase
and on display was a large laminated chart showing pictures/names of cavity nesting
birds. To my dismay they showed the HOSP along with the Bluebirds, Swallows and
Carolina Chickadees. I approached the lady behind the counter and advised
her HOSP are NOT cavity nesters, and are not native here. Another lady had
walked up while I was talking and wanted to know and see the picture of the
HOSP I was talking about. Why is it that the people at the Audubon Society
are not making people aware of how destructive the HOSP is? I'm not sure
how to handle the Audubon Society since I'm a new kid on the block here.
I seems like I'm the only one who cares about the Western Bluebird in
Grants Pass, OR.

When reading Bluebird-L it appears many people back east are very aware
of the HOSP problem. Here in my town, I go for walks and see MANY
HOSP occupying the nest boxes people put out. At my house I'm the villain, I've
been diligently using the Van Ert Trap. When I first move here three years ago I
didn't hear very many songs birds, I had nothing but breeding HOSP on the roof
tiles until this year. That darn HOSP cherp cherp drowned them all out. Last year I battled
a very aggressive HOSP who was jumping into the nest boxes I put out. This HOSP
pecked at several swallows in one particular nest box. ALL the swallow fledglings
had the top of their heads peck at, and when the last fledging swallow jumped out of the
nest box it couldn't fly away, it had many flight wings missing on the right
side and the top of his head was peck at too like the others. I took it to a sanctuary,
they fed the swallow and released it with other swallows when he/she could fly.
Later when cleaning out the nest box I notice many flight wings inside. Oh, and
that nasty HOSP that did all the damage was dispatched later with my bb gun.

Gail
Grants Pass, OR

From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: HELP Audubon Society Giving Bad Advise

Dear Bruce and friends,

I think your onto something Bruce.

Perhaps it's time to wake up the Audubon Society with letter and pictures of dead native cavity nesting birds that the HOSP has killed.

Dozens of letters and pictures of pecked out skulls might make a differences.

Gail,
I haven't had our local Audubon chapter (Concord) hand out bad advice, but I certainly have the impression that they have little active interest in Bluebird restoration. They have no restoration program or project of their own, and they have been completely indifferent to my NH Bluebird Conspiracy. The psychiatrists among you will conclude that I'm paranoid, and you may be right. (I'm convinced that George Bush is out to get me personally.) NH Audubon does a lot of stuff, but a lot of what they do strikes me as just a bit Mickey Mouse. And they spend a lot of effort raising money.
If your Audubon really doesn't know about the murderous habits of House Sparrows, and is unaware that they are aliens, then they must have their heads in the sand. Maybe you could print up a collection of vivid evidential information on the subject, and give them a big brown envelope full. That might convince them. Then again, it might not. Maybe a flood of letters-to-the-editor might help. One letter wouldn't do it, but 10 letters might.

Bruce Burdett SW NH

PS House Sparrows *are* cavity nesters.

From: mrtony8 [mailto:philip.berry"at"mchsi.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: HELP Audubon Society Giving Bad Advise

My local Audubon chapter, to which I belong, is mostly oblivious to our bluebird trail and our efforts in conservation. When I had to have a new knee in 2004, and developed a blood clot, I was out of commission for the entire season. NO ONE from Audubon offered to help my wife with the trail. We were invited to speak a few years ago and they seemed and acted thrilled. And we are friends with alll of them. We have been birders with most of them for many years. But when it comes to bluebirds, they are just another bird. Good to look at, not to help raise. Also they do not believe in interfering with HOSP.

Phil Berry

My Audubon Society chapter is actively working with our state program
to encourage installing, monitoring and maintaining (i.e., hosp, you
know what I am saying) the boxes. 60 volunteers, 42 trails, 550 boxes
in Santa Clara county in 2005, even more today. Please remember that
many chapters don't deserve such criticism.

Mike on a trail in Milpitas

I would say house sparrows (HOSP) are cavity nesters in that they will nest in cavities and boxes, although they certainly don’t need to.

I do have a webpage called When HOSP Attack that has some photos and many personal accounts. The other day I showed the headless bluebird photo to a friend who was happily telling me how he had a nestbox by his house and those cute little house sparrows were in and out of it all day, and boy they sure are productive,cranking out nest after nest of babies.
http://www.sialis.org/hospattacks.htm

The problem is most people have no idea what HOSP are capable of. When people ask what the problem is, I usually summarize the following (from http://www.sialis.org/hosp.htm) (see below.)

There is a HOSP advisory handout (adapted from one done by the Purple Martin folks) you can customize and give to folks who have neglected nestboxes that have become house sparrow slums here:
http://www.sialis.org/neglect.htm

Some organizations and birding stores want to encourage people to welcome all birds, and are reluctant (or not knowledgeable) about informing folks about HOSP - it's a pretty controversial subject.

Bet from CT

THE PROBLEM

If you want to attract bluebirds, you will have to deal with House Sparrows (HOSP) if they are common in your area. HOSP are probably the number one enemy of bluebirds and purple martins. Unlike starlings, they are capable of entering the 1.5" round hole of a nestbox. HOSP have been observed threatening and attacking 70 species of birds that have come into their nesting territory.
You might think they're cute (some bluebirders refer to them as "rats with wings"), but they attack and kill adult bluebirds (warning: graphic photos), sometimes trapping and decapitating them in the nestbox and building their own nest on top of the corpse. They destroy eggs and young. At a minimum, they often harass native birds (especially more timid species like chickadees) into abandoning nestboxes. A HOSP flock near a nestbox can also cause premature fledging. If you are serious about bluebirding, you should be serious about HOSP control. Do not put up a nestbox if you are unable or unwilling to monitor it and prevent HOSP from nesting.

For those who find it hard to deal with HOSP, here are some accounts of experiences repeated all too
often:
• "I pray that you never have to experience the shock of opening a nestbox to find a nest full of babies, mutilated and dying, or on the ground, covered with ants, or broken eggs, or a blood-covered mother bluebird who fatally tried to protect her young.

• "I had bluebird pair nest in my purple martin house. Given 11 other compartments to choose from, the House Sparrows still killed the nestlings."
• "If you ever happen to see a bluebird enter a nestbox, followed by a "Passer domesticus" or House Sparrow, you might experience what I did minutes later--holding a beautiful male bluebird in your hands, bloodied and blinded by the attack, taking his last dying breaths."

I have heard reports that in some areas HOSP and native cavity nesters appear to peacefully coexist.
This may be due to a less aggressive HOSP population. It may also be because HOSP that have not become accustomed to using nestboxes, as they do not require cavities to successfully nest. I wonder whether this situation would change as local HOSP populations increase or when HOSP learn to utilize nestboxes which offer better protection from weather and predators.

House Sparrows cause other damage: to crops (esp. grain) and gardens (eating seed, seedlings, buds, flowers, young vegetables [such as peas and lettuce], maturing fruit [such as cherries, grapes, pears and peaches], and stored grain), consuming and spoiling livestock food and water, contaminating and defacing buildings with their nests and acidic droppings (which can damage the finish on automobiles), blocking gutters (with nests), creating fire hazards (when nesting around power lines, lighted signs or electrical substations), introducing bird mites into homes, transmitting disease (e.g., fungus, bacteria such as Salmonella, and parasites, and viruses such as equine encephalitis and West Nile), and spreading other pests (such as nematodes and weed seeds). In exceptional cases (e.g., consumption of alfalfa weevil and cutworms) it has been useful as a destroyer of insect pests, however under normal circumstances its choice of insects is often unfavorable (Birds of America, 1917).

...

Some people recommend not putting up nestboxes if there are HOSP in the area, as it may invite
catastrophe.

However, if control methods are used, bluebirds may be able to successfully nest while you work on a longer term HOSP control program. The question is whether losses are acceptable along the way.

In my experience, it IS possible for bluebirds to successfully nest in HOSP territory. As a result
of employing passive and active control methods on my trail, a higher bluebird population was around
in successive seasons to come back and use nestboxes that are now virtually HOSP-free. (I do have
to continue to trap on occasion.)

Personally, I think that if a person is unwilling to monitor boxes and control HOSP in an infested
area, it is better to put up no boxes at all than to allow HOSP to breed in them.

Bet from CT

From: KCBSP"at"aol.com [mailto:KCBSP"at"aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: House sparrow wars - to box or not to box

I have not read the debate myself, been busy, but sometimes I wish I had one of those Troyer traps when I helped with certain trails BSP had. Some of course were taken down entirely as it was extremely time consuming to do all the monitoring required to correct that problem on that particular trail.

I feel it is important to encourage people to try. We can't and shouldn't tell them not to try. They learn, and change, and may find another place for a trail as their knowledge of things grows with time. Many a monitor took on a trail that somebody abandoned and some quite large ones which are now successful and started out with an unsuccessful trail.

Kathy Clark, New Cumberland, PA

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:03 PM
Subject: HOSP Advisory for Commercial Establishments is ready

It’s not perfect, but I think it’s good to go. Downloadable, customizable MS Word version available here: http://www.sialis.org/hospcom.htm

Please let me know at any time f you think of a way to make it more effective, as I’m always open to continual improvement. I’d be interested in hearing how it works.

Bet from CT

From: Kathleen Arnold [mailto:koscharn"at"cox.net]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:41 AM
Subject: RE: HOSP Advisory for Commercial Establishments is ready

Your advisory is well laid out, but is perhaps better suited to someone who already understands the impact that house sparrows have. I suspect that a lot of commercial establishments will ignore it, since the corrections it contains would require paying someone to do a lot of work that will not bring any money into the establishment. As it is, many businesses purposely schedule employees less than 40 hours so they don’t have to pay benefits and overtime, and they certainly won’t pay extra for these kinds of efforts. If there are house sparrows nesting behind sign letters there is also the consideration that the business won’t want to deface their signs by putting up chicken wire and the like.

I never mention bird droppings, which are messy and can cause problems as you state. Unfortunately native birds make droppings, too, and many people remove barn swallow nests and the nests of other birds from their property for this very reason. In Louisiana a hospital tried to scare away purple martins who were roosting nearby on a rest stop during their annual migration, due chiefly to the droppings and the perceived possibility of disease. So I don’t try to give people a reason to dislike birds and to decide they are too messy and unhealthy to have around.

My approach to informing people about house sparrows is always personal and face-to-face, and is aimed at bird lovers. Believe it or not, even with sparrow havens nearby, a dedicated trapping effort can make an impact in the sparrow population. None of my neighbors has changed anything they are doing, but this year I did not have even a single house sparrow nesting attempt. One male called from the top of a nestbox for several days, but apparently he didn’t find an interested female. Some years I felt like all I did was trap sparrows, but it appears to have worked.

Just my two-cents’ worth.

Kate Arnold
Paris, Texas

Rob,
Great post. To me, denying evolution is like denying gravity, but that's not the point. We have to honestly consider why we are doing what we are doing and what the effects might be. Since humans have become so successful the creatures that are also successful tend to be the ones that can adapt to the havoc we wreak on this earth.

If Hosp were blue and EABL's a non-descript brown and white how many bluebirders would there be?

Phil
Honeoye Falls, NY

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