Hosp Philosophy: Problems with house sparrows on the bluebird trail (Part 1)

HOSP (House Sparrow) Philosophies, Press/Public relations, Children, etc.

Also see other HOSP information under Active Control, Passive Control, Lime, General, Disposal, Predator Identification, etc.

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: 

• Minimum diameter for House Sparrow entry by Frank Navratil
• House Sparrows by Steve Eno
• The Active and Passive Bluebirders by Bluebird Bob Walshaw and Jim McLochlin

There are many ways of responding to the natural competition among species for nestboxes or natural cavities. The most simplistic is to believe that because you have conceptualized a nestbox as a "bluebird" nest site, that mental process invalidates the claim that any other species might attach to same. Such onceptualizations are of no interest to these species.

If you desire to have bluebirds occupy a nestbox, first and foremost, you need to place it in the proper habitat - which is either somewhere that bluebirds are currently resident, or could be reasonably expected to be found. I trust it is intuitively obvious that if there are no bluebirds, then they won't use the box.

Now, if you want a guarantee that only bluebirds will use the box, things get more difficult. You can keep out most climbing things (mammalian, snake, or insect) by some combination of proper mountings and guards, locating away from trees (so squirrels can't jump down), using a tab of tanglefoot or a repellent, and soaping the inside top of the box (keeps wasps from nesting).

Assuming that the only type of competition is now going to have feathers and come flying in (and that you've got l l/2 inch or smaller openings, that won't admit starlings), we're down to two classes of competitors: protected species and House sparrows. For the former, you can do nothing, since they, and their nesting endeavors, are entirely protected by law. You can, of course, freely violate the law if you wish - but I wouldn't suggest that you make a point of bragging about it over the Internet or at your local club meeting.

With regard to House sparrows, you are pretty much "free" to do whatever you wish and you can share all the gory details with everyone you know, detailing your hate for this spawn of Satan, and the myriad ways your febrile mind has devised to torture, maim, gas, freeze, burn, eradicate, destroy, this. . . this. . . this "alien, non-native, abomination." You can lie in bed at night, relishing your righteousness, and reliving your never-ending campaigns, counting the bodies. . .

OR, you could stop and think about what fuels your irrational behavior. Why you've choosen to focus so much enmity on this single species.

You might ponder what makes a species native or non-native. Are such things immutable? When, if ever, do the definitions change.

You might, if you observe closely and long enough, observe bluebirds killing House sparrows.

You might think about all those well-meaning bluebirders (and groups) who give away (or encourage the production of) thousands of bluebird houses that will never be monitored - making them all ideal sparrow factories.

You might consider putting up your bluebird houses after the bluebirds return, which discourages their choice as sparrow nest sites.

You might simply consider removing sparrow nests, or removing the nestbox that has attracted sparrows.

You might look at the Breeding Bird Survey counts, and acknowledge that bluebirds are becoming quite common - not at all the threatened species of yore.

You might read and consider the following poem by e.e.cummings - and know, with a certainty, that the "sparrow" of this poem is your former enemy - Passer domesticus.

The Sparrow
(To My Father)

This sparrow
who comes to sit at my window
is a poetic truth
more than a natural one.

His voice,
his movements,
his habits-
how he loves to
flutter his wings
in the dust-
all attest it;
granted, he does it
to rid himself of lice
but the relief he feels
makes him
cry out lustily-
which is a trait
more related to music
than otherwise.

Wherever he finds himself
in early spring,
on back streets
or beside palaces,
he carries on
unaffectedly
his amours.

It begins in the egg,
his sex genders it:
What is more pretentiously
useless
or about which
we more pride ourselves?

It leads as often as not
to our undoing.
The cockerel, the crow
with their challenging voices
cannot surpass
the insistence
of his cheep!

Once
at El Paso
toward evening
I saw-and heard!-
ten thousand sparrows
who had come in from
the desert
to roost. They filled the trees
of a small park. Men fled
(with ears ringing!)
from their droppings,
leaving the premises
to the alligators
who inhabit
the fountain. His image
is familiar
as that of the aristocratic
unicorn, a pity
there are not more oats eaten
nowadays
to make living easier
for him.

At that,
his small size,
keen eyes,
serviceable beak
and general trucelence
assure his survival-
to say nothing
of his innumerable
brood.

Even the Japanese
know him
and have painted him
sympathetically,
with profound insight
into his minor
characteristics.

Nothing even remotely
subtle
about his lovemaking.
He crouches
before the female,
drags his wings,
waltzing,
throws back his head
and simply-
yells! The din
is terrific.

The way he swipes his bill
across a plank
to clean it,
is decisive.

So with everything
he does. His coppery
eyebrows
give him the air
of being always
a winner-and yet

I saw once,
the female of his species
clinging determindedly
to the edge of
a water pipe,
catch him
by his crown-feathers
to hold him
silent,
subdued,
hanging above the city streets
until
she was through with him.

What was the use
of that?
She hung there
herself,
puzzled at her success.

I laughed heartily.
Practical to the end,
it is the poem
of his existence
that triumphed
finally;
a wisp of feathers
flattened to the pavement,
wings spread symmetrically
as if in flight,
the head gone,
the black excutcheon of the breast
undecipherable,
as effigy of a sparrow,
a dried wafter only,
left to say
and it says it
without offense,
beautifully;
This was I,
a sparrow.
I did my best;
farewell.

Jim Walters james-walters"at"uiowa.edu
Johnson County Songbird Project
1033 E. Washington
Iowa City, IA 52240-5248 (319) 466-1134
U.S.A.

Note: In regard to the author of the poem The Sparrow I received the following email:

Dear Bluebird Box,

I happened upon your site and noticed a poem, "The Sparrow", in a post by James Walters (at: http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bestofbbml/hospphilosophy.htm. He attributes the poem to e.e. cummings. I believe that you may find a copy of "The Sparrow" on page 291 of Williams' The Collected Poems of William Carlos Williams: Vol. 2, 1939-1962. I don't believe that Williams was in the habit of publishing cummings' work, so one might suppose the poem to have been authored by Williams.

Subj: Re: killing sparrows
Date: 3/10/99 1:25:06 PM Central Standard Time
From: rtstan"at"unicomp.net (lanelle stanley)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: rtstan"at"unicomp.net
To: niksgma"at"skyenet.net, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Lanelle Stanley, Sulphur Springs, TX, NE corner of the state

When you deliberately toss out a sparrow nest, you have deliberately killed. I certainly did not mean to rile those who love house sparrows, but I hardly think my view are "extremist." I do believe that posts such as that from James P. Walters of 9/10/99 are entirely inappropriate for this bluebird line. I don't care to participate in any activity in which I am to be accosted for what I consider entirely rational attitudes. Are there no guidelines enforced by Bluebird-L?

This is the first time I have participated in any Internet chat. It may turn out to be my last! Wow!! Who is in charge of this program?

Marjorie Richards
Donaldson, Indiana

James Walters, you echoed my sentiments exactly with your Message and
poem about house sparrows.

My view on killing sparrows, smashing their eggs or tossing out their
nests: I can toss out nests if they are built in nestboxes which I wish
to be occupied by bluebirds or tree swallows, but I could never kill any
bird or animal. If I had to kill my own food, I'd be a vegetarian. I
can swat mosquitoes and flies and squish Japanese Beetles and stomp tomato
hornworms but that's the limit of my ability to commit murder & mayhem.
Even with insects, if they don't bother me (or my garden), I don't bother
them. Starlings eat a lot of insects. I suppose house sparrows do too.


I'm a bit grieved when a hawk flies through the yard and snatches a bird
meal. I know that's the nature of things, but I'd prefer not to see it
happen. I say, let 'em eat mice. However, I personally do not kill mice.


Anyway, that's my philosophy....live and let live. All creatures are
welcome in my yard and garden, even the deer and rabbits which chomp my
veggies and flowers.
I've had visiting raccoons, skunk (used to eat the cat's food), o'possums,
fox, groundhog, rabbits, deer, squirrels, chipmunks, and of course birds
of any and all kinds. I'm not crazy about moles or snakes, but I don't
kill them.

If others feel differently, and want to take drastic steps....that's okay
with me.
But this is how I do it at my place.

Responding to complicated list threads can sometimes be daunting, but I would like to try to respond to specific points Hatch raises concerning my post on sparrows. Where necessary, I'll abbreviate my posts, and indicated omissions in Hatch's by: snip. If you're new to this, my original comment is indicated by , Hatch's response is , and my response to Hatch follows.

If you desire to have bluebirds occupy a nestbox, first and foremost, you
need to place it in the proper habitat - which is either somewhere that
bluebirds are currently resident, or could be reasonably expected to be
found. I trust it is intuitively obvious that if there are no bluebirds,
then they won't use the box.

This is totally incorrect, James. The habitat may be
perfect for the bluebird with only one exception--there is
no cavity within which to nest. snip Dick Purvis, who is on
this list, created bluebird habitat by simply adding
cavities to the parks, etc. snip What you
conclude is intuitively obvious shows your intuition is
faulty. Sorry if that's a flame, but true, nevertheless.

Perfect bluebird habitat does contain cavities - preferably natural ones, but in the absence of these, artificial ones. And I'm sorry, no one "creates bluebird habitat" (perfect or otherwise) by simply adding cavities - otherwise the entire world would become habitat. Manipulating nature just a bit may make some feel like the gods, but we fall far short of that.

Now, if you want a guarantee that only bluebirds will use the box, things
get more difficult. You can keep out most climbing things (mammalian,
snake, or insect) by some combination of proper mountings and guards,
locating away from trees (so squirrels can't jump down), using a tab of
tanglefoot or a repellent, and soaping the inside top of the box (keeps
wasps from nesting).

Except that Dick's hanging boxes avoid almost all of those
complications.

Hey, hats off to new designs and ideas! I've heard great reports of this box and it's uses. I generally give everything that comes along a try (although perhaps less so, as I've gotten older). All this shows me is that we've all got a lot to learn (maybe even about House sparrows?).

  Assuming that the only type of competition is now going to have feathers
and come flying in (and that you've got l l/2 inch or smaller openings,
that won't admit starlings), we're down to two classes of competitors:
protected species and House sparrows
....

What's your point. We welcome everything but the House Sparrows.

This perhaps points out some regional differences. I've been to more than one Midwestern bluebird conference where participants described dumping tree swallows, wrens, and occasionally other protected species. In the review process around the recent NABS educational brochure, I went out my way to get people to stop thinking myopically about bluebirds (by which I mean, giving new bluebirders the idea that they can or should dump any other species that use their "bluebirds only" box). Now it may come as a surprise to you that otherwise well-intentioned people do this, but many across the Midwest routinely (and illegally) dump all wren nests (and, I'm told many to the north of me do the same with tree swallows).

With regard to House sparrows, you are pretty much "free" to do whatever
you wish and....

And what's the point of this, as others have said, except to
show your clever use of the English language. Do you lie in
bed thinking of how you can use your erudition to shame
others. Or do you simply consider your opinion superior to
the masses of inferiors who might make decisions in
contradiction to your supreme intelligence?

I guess I could have put smiley faces (which are: :), for those of you who are unfamiliar with them) around this paragraph, but I did want it to sting just a bit. I've been involved in many different sparrow control programs and techniques over the years. In that time, I've moved from more lethal ones to less lethal ones (the passive/aggressive dichotomy Steve Eno describes). This has made the hobby more pleasant for me (at no expense to bluebirds) and certainly more easy to recruit others to be involved in.

Lest you think this is a small point, I'd be happy to send you the notorious Wall Street Journal piece of a few years back (Bluebirders "wringing in" the Spring), which brought us all a great deal of unnecessary trouble. In the end, I feel that the choice to kill sparrows is a personal one. But should anyone express "pleasure" in doing this, then I will speak against that publicly.

Actually, if the nestboxes you have placed are far enough
from the HOSPs feeding places, there's much less
competition. Dick Purvis has already indicated he loses
some WEBLs to HOSPs but he's also told me that the HOSPs are
more colonial, living, in So Calif at least, in Palm Trees
and Spanish Tile roofs, so competition is less than it might
be.

When I first started bluebirding - in 1961, to be exact - I could place bluebird houses less than a quarter mile from our Iowa farmstead, and absolutely rely on that separation - bluebirds on one side, house sparrows on the other. By the mid-70s that division was long gone. Today house sparrows are anywhere (as are wrens) - they are only absent from "new" trails for a matter of a few years.

OR, you could stop and t fuels your irrational behavior. Why
you've choosen to focus so much enmity on this single species.

Irrational behavior? Yes, why"

I think it entirely irrational, when I see people focus their good energy on "beating" sparrows, rather than helping bluebirds. Now in the Midwest, at lot of us have had really good luck with the Gilbertson box - it's pretty sparrow-resistant, and it's become the box I normally recommend. Why not just switch box types and quit worrying about sparrows?

At another level I think hating something makes people behave irrationally. I grew up among the Amish community of southern Johnson County. In my youth, the Amish routinely killed all hawks and eagles, since they were all "chicken hawks" (and this is probably reflected in most of your states' DNR materials, if you go back into the 20s and 30s). The Amish also routinely killed all snakes - the garden of Eden thing. Now I doubt that anyone on this list would hesitate in calling these "irrational hatreds." But nature is very complicated, we miss a lot if we fail to look carefully - and dispassionately.

You might ponder what makes a species native or non-native. Are such things
immutable? When, if ever, do the definitions change.

You know, James, interestingly enough, you're really on to
something here. In a way, it's really un-American to be
against the House Sparrow. America is the melting pot; we
welcome the masses yearning to be free. The House Sparrow
should be our National Bird, not the Bald Eagle, nor, as Ben
Franklin suggested, the Turkey; but yes, the House Sparrow.
Like most of European descent, it migrated to America as a
foreigner, it knocked out the Native Americans, filled up
most habitats, and became extremely successful riding on the
backs of those that preceded it. Who wants to join in
making the House Sparrow the National Bird??! 

Rick Blom has written a wonderful piece suggesting it should be the European Starling - for some of the same reasons Hatch mentions.

You might, if you observe closely and long enough, observe bluebirds
killing House sparrows.

I seem to remember Sitting Bull doing something like that.

Yes, and no one faults him for it. I rather like aggressive bluebirds - it's a trait I like to see rise up in the gene pool. Now, arguably, if you save every bluebird, you work against this, by facilitating the survival of weaker individuals (no mealworms for this bluebirder!). I really like those sparrow-killing bluebirds, but I don't hate the sparrows for behaving naturally. 

You might think about all those well-meaning bluebirders (and groups) who
give away (or encourage the production of) thousands of bluebird houses
that will never be monitored - making them all ideal sparrow factories.

Now that's a whole 'nother subject! I don't think that
advances your premise. And, of course, there's no argument,
here.

In the Midwest, it's a very real subject. I haven't gone as far as to suggest that bluebirders should smash unmonitored boxes (although I'm close). Again, this may be strictly regional, but I'll say that 90 percent of unmonitored Midwest nest boxes can be relied on to produce two or more broods of House sparrows each year. But people just go on and on giving away boxes - and telling everyone to put 'em up. 

You might consider putting up your bluebird houses after the bluebirds
return, which

Who doesn't remove the sparrow nests if it's a problem? And
if it continues, who doesn't move the box? But why put up
with the bioinvader, if there's another solution?

People who don't monitor put up with it - as do many who do (and for a variety of reasons)e is going to follow are advice, or use current-accepted practices? And why not, instead of employing lethal means, use non-lethal ones?

You might look at the Breeding Bird Survey counts, and acknowledge that
bluebirds are becoming quite commodecline for Western Bluebirds and a 35% decline in our

little Oat Titmouse, another cavity nester who has suffered
from the House Sparrow, Starling, and Human invasion of
their habitat.

I don't have to look up the history of NABS - I was part of it. And a big pasal in my approach to the bird world. As I said in another post, my trail includes houses for a wide variety of birds (and occasionally, for my own edification or amusement, mice, wasps, and other critters who take up residence in my nestboxes). I'd be missing ever were. I don't want to look out my window and see ONLY bluebirds.

And I always want to see House sparrows - since a lifetime of close observation has made them my favorite birds. I can tell you things you don't know about House sparrows, an

Subj: 1992 Wall St. Journ. article on House Sparrows
Date: 4/10/99 5:35:51 PM Central Daylight Time
From: dputman"at"syix.com (dputman)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: dputman"at"syix.com
To: Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu (bluebird)

Kevin Putman, Yuba City, CA --a couple of bluebird nests under incubation, so far.

Some time back, Jim Walters sent me a copy of the 1992 Wall St. Journal article on bluebirders / house sparrows (thanks Jim). It is an interesting article; it's not an altogether flattering portrait of us bluebirders--and I might add--a biased, yet subtly so, representation of the house sparrow issue. Anyone who wants to read this article just let me know, and I'll email it to you.

I noticed that the author failed to mention one very important fact about H. sparrows.

KP

Subj: Re: 1992 Wall St. Journ. article on House Sparrows
Date: 4/11/99 11:05:42 PM Central Daylight Time
From: dputman"at"syix.com (dputman)
To: bluebirdbox"at"cox.net

The Wall Street Journal Wed., May 6, 1992

Lovers of Bluebirds Are Wringing In The Breeding Season

By a Twist of a Sparrow's Neck,
The Dedicated Help Save
The Sweetest of Songirds

By Daniel Machalaba (staff reporter of The Wall Street Journal)

CLARKSVILLE, Md.--As darkness falls, Mark Wallace steals across a large suburban lawn toward a wooden birdhouse mounted on a telephone pole. Working by flashlight, he unscrews the top of the birdhouse, grabs a sparrow nesting within and pops her into a cage. "She will very shortlyhave an accident," he says.

Mr. Wallace has already done in 160 house sparrows this year, mostly by dashing them against a concrete sidewalk. Their little corpses are temporarily piling up in plastic bags just below the meat shelf in his basement freezer.

Mr. Wallace, a mild-mannered convenience-store clerk, belongs to the North American Bluebird Society, whose members' devotion to a single species stands out even in the world of bird enthusiasts. To stop the gentle bluebirds' flight into oblivion, thousands of dedicated enthusiasts are trying to tip the scales of nature to bring them back. Volunteers tend bluebird trails--lines of nesting boxes, or houses--and stalk the house sparrow. This common, aggressive bird invades bluebird houses and evictstheir residents so it can use the box for its own nest.

A Day of Infamy

Often, alas, there is violence. Marcy Hoepfner of Metamora, Ill., remembers the day she found a sparrow that had built a nest over the dead body of an adult female bluebird he had pecked to death. "From that day on, I have no mercy for a sparrow," Says Mrs. Hoepfner. She adds that "if you are going to put up a bluebird house, you better be willing to destroy sparrows." Mrs. Hoepfner's preferred methods: stomping them to death or shooting them with her pellet gun.

This mayhem is inspired by what the perpetrators consider the loveliest of native American species. Not to be confused with the large and raucous blue jay, the male Eastern Bluebird is a brilliant cobalt blue, with a brick-red breast and white belly. The brilliant blue inspired Henry David Thoreau to write that "the bluebird carries the sky on its back."  "It's just an absolutely beautiful bird," says Thomas Meyer, a Bedford Hills, N.Y., investment adviser who monitors a 450-box trail that stretches across a golf course, parks and estates. "I never get tired of watching them." He fixes his binoculars on a pair of bluebirds perched in a tree.  Suddenly there appears a blue flash as sunlight catches the male's open wings.

What's more, the bird has endearing traits--such as a soft, gentle song; a cute, cuddly appearance; and the tendency of first-brood siblings to help their parents feed second-brood siblings. "If people could live like bluebirds, there wouldn't be so many problems in the world, " says Lilian Files, a retired businesswoman and bluebird fancier in Tyngsboro, Mass., who rides a moped to check 114 bluebird nesting boxes on her property, nearby yards and at two cemeteries. "When you see bluebirds nesting on your property, you feel like you are one of the chosen ones."

Bluebird lovers also relish their opportunity to man the from ranks of he conservation battle. "There is very little we can do to help the bald eagle or the peregrine falcon," says Ray Briggs, a Cobleskill, N.Y., devotee. "But with the bluebird, everyone can get into the act."  Some fanciers set up small production lines to build the specially designed wooden nesting boxes, which have 1 ½-inch openings that are large enough to let bluebirds (and, unavoidably, sparrows) enter but too small for starlings, another common enemy. Tens of thousands of the little houses have been set up to attract the birds, now that many of their natural nesting places--like rotted trees--have dwindled. They are mounted on fenceposts, trees or poles, usually in open fields with short grasswhere bluebirds can easily find insects.

Bluebird trails aren't new, but they are proliferating. Thomas Musselman of Quincy, Ill., considered the originator of the bluebird conservation movement, established a bluebird nest box trail in the 1930s. Lawrence Zeleny stirred the modern-day campaign with his 1976 book, "The Bluebird:How You Can Help Its Fight for Survival," and he still maintains a bluebird trail in Beltsville, Md.

Their efforts, and those of their followers, seem to be paying off. The population of the Eastern Bluebird, now at about one million, grew about 82% from 1980 to 1989, though wildlife specialists also credit a string of mild winters. By comparison, house sparrows, an unprotected species, number somewhere in the tens of millions in the eastern half of the U.S. and Canada, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Mr. Wallace, the convenience-store clerk, says: "When I see a pair of bluebirds sitting with their young on a telephone wire, it makes my work all worthwhile."  On this particular day, the 34-year-old Mr. Wallace steers his Dodge Ram through exurban Howard County, checking some of his 300 nesting boxes scattered on farms and large-lot subdivisions. During breeding season, from early April to late August, Mr. Wallace spends 50 hours a week on the bluebird trail.

He pulls up to a residence where he had set a sparrow trap--a wire-mesh cage, on the ground, that's baited to catch and hold sparrows. When he reaches in, a house sparrow grabs hold of his hand. "Ouch. You're nasty.  I'm glad I got you," says Mr. Wallace, whisking the sparrow into his holding cage to await execution. He periodically delivers bags of frozen sparrow carcasses to wildlife rehabilitation centers for owl and hawk food.

Even so, he acknowledges that the task is daunting. "I lose a few clutches to the monsters every year despite what I do," says Mr. Wallace.  He says he helped fledge 500 bluebirds and killed 850 house sparrows last year.

Other bluebird fanciers pursue their own house sparrow eradication methods, sometimes taking guidance from the 1980 book, "How to Control House Sparrows," which is distributed by the North American Bluebird Society, based in Silver Spring, Md. They include twisting their heads until the neck is broken and immersing sparrow traps in a tub of water.  The book also mentions that sparrows "can easily be transferred to a gunny sack which can be fastened to the exhaust of a car." It adds, "A few minutes of exhaust gas will provide an effective, painless means of doing away with them. "When Mr. Zeleny, the 88-year-old bluebird lover, finds a nesting house sparrow, he grabs the bird, turns away and pulls off its head.

Some would rather leave the deed to others. "I don't have the heart to clean out the sparrow nests," says Roger Young, whose bluebird boxes are routinely inspected by Mr. Wallace. "But when Mark comes, they just disappear."

Still, there are those--such as David Krementz, a wildlife biologist at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in Athens, Ga.--who believe house sparrows have as much right to live as bluebirds. Bluebird enthusiasts are "playing God," says Mr. Krementz, who studied house sparrows for his Ph.D. thesis and learned to "like everything about them." He adds that house sparrows have subtle but interesting coloration, animated mating behavior and feed on Japanese beetles, moths, wasps, crab grass and ragweed.

Mr. Krementz has infuriated bluebird lovers by setting out nesting boxes to attract house sparrows and starlings, which he uses in his field research. But he practices a live-and-let-live philosophy that he thinks bluebird devotees might well follow. "When I got bluebirds in my starling boxes, I let them be," he says. "I didn't pull their heads off or gas them. ======

Northeast Oklahoma - I spoke to the third graders at Oakridge Elementary in Sapulpa today. They are monitoring 5 bluebird boxes, and have an Eastern Bluebird nest and have taken a house sparrow nest out of another. They were eager to do more than remove the nest and had a lot of questions as to how to fight them. The teacher was reluctant to involve them at this age in killing house sparrows, and I agreed with her. It was interesting to hear that many of them knew that this was the thing to do. Bluebird Bob

Sounds great, but I have to ask this question every time: "house sparrow nest destroyed" - not a trap set to catch and eliminate? Destroying the nest just sends them on to another location on your line or to harass and kill cavity nesters at other locations. Take care of the problem when they come into your line. Happy bluebirding. Bluebird Bob, Eastern Oklahoma.

No one persons email has caused me to write this email and no one persons response has either. It is a continuing story. No one need to try and find themselves in this email (I think we are all in here). There are two main topics in this email, the first being offensive emails (this email is a prime example). The second is the mandatory trapping of house sparrows recommended by most bluebirders. I am in the minority on this aspect. To insure that this does not turn into a flame war, I will be imposing a one month moratorium on myself from posting any emails to the list. Sorry the survey results will be late.

Perhaps it us because I have had the privilege to read the survey responses, or maybe it is because I have been on this list long enough to have seen multiple new bluebirders offended and even some more experienced bluebirders who just joined the list leave the list when a comment is made that does offend. But, I've got to tell all of you that I am ashamed of the list when any bluebirder is offended from remarks made by a list member. That goes for a bluebirder who has given more to the list than any other down to the new list member who just posted a first email. When that offense goes to the point of the person unsubscribing from the list it is a travesty.

It is the responsibility of all list members to temper their remarks so that those who are easily offended will not take offense. That is easy to say, but very hard to do. I am certain that this email will offend some on the list and for that I am sincerely sorry. Some of us are more hardened than others to offensive posts. I have tried very hard to constrain myself on this post and often will write and not send a Message because the only outcome is someone taking offense. I do write this email with a very heavy heart.

It is the responsibility of experienced bluebirders to impart their experiences and knowledge to the new bluebirder. The new bluebirder should be expected to listen to the best of their conscience to the recommendations of those who have been in the trenches. The experienced bluebirder may have told this story a hundred times and is now frustrated to have tell it again and just can't figure out why the Message hasn't sunk in. The answer to that is simple. It is a new question to these new bluebirders, and all they are expecting is a simple answer. No need to degrade the fact.

I have been told a number times (in fact in an indirect way once again from this thread) that if I don't trap and kill sparrows that I shouldn't have placed nest boxes up for bluebird use. I will admit I am a pacifist to the extreme, but I can't find it in myself to trap or kill anything (short of ants -- terrible carpenter ant problem a few years ago, mosquitos, and house flies). To listen to this list and others before you, I must be an inexperienced bluebirder and should not put up nest boxes if I am not willing to change my mind and trap and kill house sparrows.

Believe me, I don't consider myself an expert bluebirder. I don't even want anyone to think I have the same qualifications as Dorene Scriven, Keith Kridler, or Dean Sheldon. Simply put compared to these people and those like them I am a new bluebirder. However I don't consider myself lacking in experience, nor do I feel my methods are right for all.

From my perspective and my experiences of bluebirding in Nebraska, house sparrows are a problem and most often they are a problem when nestboxes are placed in less than ideal habitat. I propose that it is more of a desire to turn our backyards into bluebird habitat, which typically it is not and never will be again, that we have excessive house sparrow problems. Don't get me wrong here I too would love to have bluebirds in my yard. On face value, I do have an ideal situation. I have a large open field, I don't use pesticides or herbicides (well at least minimally), etc. But, I do have houses and feeders and all the other attractants to the house sparrow. In addition I can't control my neighbors action (I am certain many of them use pesticides and such). I do have a nest box in the back yard and the only thing to fledge from it so far is house wrens.

My trail is in a suburban city park and I use passive house sparrow control; including Gilbertson nest boxes (primarily, with a few NABS/Peterson boxes as decoys more on that later). I remove all house sparrow nests and eggs (I used to send those eggs to the local nature center to feed snakes but quit that after I had scrambled eggs a few too many times -- see my post in the fondest memories classification of Best of Bluebird-L Classified). The decoy boxes I have often don't have a successful nesting, but the sparrows are very active in them and leave my bluebirds alone that are in the Gilbertson Boxes. Some might think that this is a waste of a nest site. I think of it as house sparrow control. The average nest box in Nebraska fledges about two and half birds. That means many boxes are going unused by native birds. Seems like perfect decoy material.

I understand that these conditions may not be the same as yours. In your locale native birds may fill every one of your boxes (especially if you have house wrens, in fact if you have house wrens that may be all you have). However, this works well for me. I know many others in Nebraska, and elsewhere, who trap and kill house sparrows and that works well for them.

Am I right or are they? Am I too inexperienced to say?

I feel the answer to the first question is yes, we are both right. We are doing what we both feel is right and conscionable. I would not want to suggest that it is my way or no way. I in no way expect to change the mind of bluebirders who feel they must trap and kill house sparrows, because in their situation that is what they find acceptable. Can I find that same form of respect?

The answer to the second question you will have to answer for yourself. I want to consider myself a new bluebirder, because I feel I am still learning and enjoying bluebirds. I want to consider myself experienced because I have my point of view to share. For sure I don't want to be talked down to because I don't agree with and follow all of a more "experienced" bluebirders ideas.

Jim McLochlin
Omaha, NE

The Bluebird Box = http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/index.htm
Best of Bluebird_L Classified = http://members.aol.com/bestofbbl/bblindx.htm

"I'm a Nature Nut, and I hope you are too" - John Acorn

In a Message dated 04/04/2000 10:56:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bluebirdbox"at"cox.net writes:

My trail is in a suburban city park and I use passive house sparrow control; including Gilbertson nest boxes (primarily, with a few NABS/Peterson boxes as decoys more on that later). I remove all house sparrow nests and eggs

Of all of Jim's comments, the above is the most relevant. Preventing the house sparrow from breeding will be just as effective in the long run as snuffing them out immediately. So whichever method one prefers to use, he/she will have a positive impact of the bluebird population.

Jerry Houser
Guilderland, NY

I will not respond point by point to Jim's post, but I am strongly in agreement that we need more consideration and tolerance for difference. To repeat what I said once before, every newbie we retain who succeeds in fledging a bluebird is a gain for the bluebirds.

I think we can agree to disagree about everything except for the need for education, education, education. And I have yet to meet a new bluebirder who was not avid for more information about bluebirds.

Thanks, JIm, for your post, and for all your hard work for the list.

Randy Jones
Allentown PA

Haleya Priest Amherst MA

Dear bluebirders, I need help thinking about how to talk to a newspaper about bluebirds in terms of HOSP. I think everything seems fine and important to mention about HOSP up to trapping and disposing. Do you just avoid that specific topic? I know this is a continual dilemma for people doing bb talks as well as newpapers, etc. Thanks. H

Hello, all...

I have been doing some serious soul-searching over the past few days about the combined issue of HOSP invasions and who is using our nestbox. After thinking carefully about this, I think I am going to take the advice of several list members who recommended placing a smaller-diameter hole cover on my existing box. I'll hate to "lose" the EABLs, but they don't seem serious about the box anyway (and maybe this would give them the impetus they need to find a more suitable nest and stop messing around!), and this *definitely* would make life safer for my little Chickadees (no W.C.Fields/Mae West pun intended...really!).

While I am positive I would have no trouble removing a HOSP nest and destroying eggs, I think I would definitely have a problem killing adult HOSPs. I am, after all, the person who *could not* bring herself to slice a live planarian in half in her high-school biology course, who traps and releases wasps that get into her house rather than killing them outright, who can't bear the sight of lobsters being thrown into a pot of boiling water, who blew up at a friend just because he picked up an adult cat by the scruff of the neck, and who basically lost a whole day of work after witnessing a coworker stomp a poor little mouse to death in a garbage can. I just know that when I see a live, helpless bird looking out at me from a trap, no matter how dangerous that bird is to other species and how determined I am to be responsible, at that moment I would lose all heart and be unable to go through with killing it. I have never killed a vertebrate before, not even a fish.

Not that I don't think I could be excited to a killing *rage* toward HOSPs--I already feel pretty violent toward Starlings, especially after watching one forcibly evict a female Red-bellied Woodpecker from a roost hole in our maple tree, after which I seriously considered getting a BB (not Bluebird!) gun to deal with them in a more permanent fashion. It's significant, I think, that I never went through with buying the BB gun. I think, for me, killing adult birds would exact a personal cost I may not be ready to accept.

So, for me, maybe the most responsible and personally viable solution is just not to create the problem in the first place...that is, create a Chickadee or Titmouse haven, not a Bluebird haven. I would be happy with that, and I think the birdies would be better off.

+ -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

Robyn Kells rkells"at"virginia.edu Planet Earth
"...it is only above ground, in the light of day, that we
are a trembling, articulate bundle of tunes; in the depth
we disintegrate again into black murmurs, confused purring,
a multitude of unfinished stories." - Bruno Schulz

In a Message dated 04/04/2000 2:03:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hpandtl"at"crocker.com writes:

I think everything seems fine and important to mention about HOSP up to trapping and disposing. Do you just avoid that specific topic?

For my two cents, Thom, the topic should be mentioned as it is on everyone's mind anyway. But the timing of your question is perfect. Jim earlier suggested that he simply continues to remove the HOSP nesting material and/or pricks the eggs of the HOSP. Then there are others who prefer to quickly dispose of the HOSP. So, there are options for both views and those options should be presented in the newspaper article.

Jerry Houser
Guilderland,NY

Bill Darnell, Savannah, TN
Lat: 35:18:32.407N
Lon 88:10:31.368W
Elev 420', aprox.

I just had a newspaper article done on myself in a local paper. I explained that if destroying house sparrows and starlings would seem cruel, then after they saw a Bluebird with the top of it's head torn off, and a slummy sparrow nest built on top of the nestlings, some still alive, it would not be so hard afterwards. I shot very straight, I told them if they fed sparrow food in the winter, rest assured they would reside with them next summer!

So far, I have no reprecussions! If I had said what I think about stray cats, I am sure I would have, because people go ballistic over that one.

Haleya Priest Amherst MA

Dear bluebirders, I need help thinking about how to talk to a newspaper
....

Robyn:

You brought back a memory for me with the starling/woodpecker story. When I was in the sixth grade a pair of red-breasted woodpeckers chipped a home in one of the big boxelders in our backyard. The starlings immediately invaded and drove off the woodpeckers. I did lay to rest a few of the starlings with my daisy air rifle. But for every one I shot, it seemed there were two more waiting to take their place.

Add to this the fact that I lived in the city limits, and the neighbours called the police over the starling shootings...Eventually, my brother climbed the tree and nailed a board over the woodpecker hole so those damned starlings wouldn't have it.

I hope your solution works. I would be happy to hear that you get a flock of titmice.....

Nicholas

... 

Here's what I try to tell new bluebirders about House Sparrows:

You need to know that House Sparrows will kill both adult and chick Bluebirds (and Tree Swallows) in a nestbox that the sparrows want. What you do about it is your personal choice, and I hope you will take some action instead of doing nothing. It may take this type of disaster to motivate you, but to help you avoid the heartache of finding dead bluebirds, your options include repeatedly and persistently removing nests and/or eggs, trapping the sparrows and releasing them elsewhere, trapping the sparrows and disposing of them, or using a BB gun to dispose of them. The one thing you should not do is allow House Sparrows to breed successfully, because that multiplies the problem in the future.

Does anyone find that offensive or objectionable, or is it reasonable?

Brenda
--
Brenda Best
Durhamville, NY
(between Syracuse and Utica)
jabbest"at"dreamscape.com

The Nature Club of Central New York
http://natureclubofcny.8m.com/

....
I have also seen what the HOSP can do to the bluebirds. I had no problem with my neighbor blasting them. I have lost several to the beasts. Consider them a rat! Elaine ,from Central N.Y.

Aint a thing wrong with agreeing to disagree agreeably. Each of us have opinions; therefore, we must respect other person's opinions in order to have our opinions respected.

... 

The famous saying goes something like this: " I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." I do respect your feelings in this. However if the house sparrow was a native bird (like the cowbird or bluejay, for instance, which both harm bluebirds at times), I could agree with you. I do not kill them, although I will throw out a cowbird's egg if I find one in one of my bluebird houses. However the house sparrow is man's mistake, and he has introduced it into areas where our native birds do not have natural defenses against it.

If I was one of your neighbors and you were allowing house sparrows to raise young in your houses which would attack and kill my cavity nesters it would be no different from the police in my town apprehending a murderer and setting him free in your town.

Removing nests and eggs does not stop them from breeding. It simply drives them to compete even more aggressively with bluebirds and other cavity nesters.

I find it best to be direct and honest about the need to trap and eliminate them if we are to help our native cavity nesters. I explain that they are aliens, mans mistake, and that in the world of our native birds they are like mice, rats, gophers, etc. which most people are comfortable in eliminating. Also with all of the publicity about violence in today's world a comment that not eliminating house sparrows is like catching a murderer in my town and releasing him in your town is very well understood and accepted. Also showing color pictures of murdered bluebirds makes believers of a lot of people.

PLEASE! PLEASE! Scratch that from your mind and vocabulary. Would you want someone to release house sparrows on your trail? Or to release a murderer from another city in your town? These may seem like harsh questions, but they need to be asked every time you hear anyone talk about releasing house sparrows anywhere.

Everyone deserves respect for their opinions. However, regarding the difficult house sparrow question, those who have experience with the problems that these alien birds cause our native cavity nesters need to do whatever they can to not only educate newcomers, but also to change the opinions of those who will not or cannot bring themselves to take the responsibility of eliminating them in every way possible.

Thank you. You are starting out on the right foot to help our native cavity nesters. Call The Birds' Paradise catalog at 1- 814-587-3879 for the Heuber-Tuttle insert sparrow trap. ($6.50 is the last price that I have). Joe Huber - I will also recommend your trap, but I don't have a contact number for this. Kate - the easiest way to handle house sparrows that are caught with this trap (the trap does not hurt them - it just won't let them out of the house) is to put a clear plastic bag over the front of the house - I use a large rubber band to seal the plastic around the front of the house - then when the bird flies into the plastic bag make sure it is a house sparrow (fortunately our other sparrows will not enter houses), tighten the plastic around the house sparrow and hit it with your fist while it is still inside the bag - or hit the bag against a solid object if you have a strong plastic bag. Dump the bird out and step on it to make sure it is dead. With this method you will not have to touch the bird.

This may be difficult at first, but after you have taken dead adult bluebirds and chickadees out of your houses or found a nest full of babies that have been killed by house sparrows it gets easier. Good luck, and ask again if you have any problems with any of this.

I agree that this is an important concept. However we have to be careful that in asserting our freedoms that we do not affect others adversely. If you consider two bluebird trails in the same area with one bluebirder eliminating house sparrows and the other releasing them or letting them fledge young you can see what I am referring to. If the bluebirds and other cavity nesters could vote we might have less disagreement on this issue. My opinion is if we are going to help them we should do this in the most complete and effective way which includes trapping and eliminating house sparrows.

This is true, but not always in our bluebird houses. Some of them take over natural cavities and evict other cavity nesters. We are getting more houses up all the time, but natural cavities are still used in large numbers.

An idea that I haven't heard of, and it should work in a large city. In small towns the fast food places are close to bluebird areas and in recent years the house sparrows have been moving out into rural areas, both because of this and because of the increase in feeding cheap small seeds that house sparrows like. Part of our bluebird society educational program includes reminding bird feeders to feed black oil sunflower seeds.

RC?

Could you possibly be serious? What problem would this solve?

I guess it might get them out of the immediate hair of the capturer, but then what?

If we were to aside these pests in such a manner, why stop there? Let's trap all our mice, cockroaches, houseflies, wasps, and moles, and release them at McDonald's & Burger King as well.

By the way, they have dumpsters out back for the rest of our disposables. But don't throw the filled diapers in the dumpsters; the new tradition requires them to be tossed into the parking lot, next to the feeding house sparrows.

Did I get a little carried away? (Grin)

Nicholas

...

The replacing of eggs with infertile ones takes an additional trip and since I might forget, this year I plan to try a method suggested this past year as one used by city park employees to limit the number of Canada geese. I will carry a small container of oil and dip each sparrow egg and replace it if I chose to not trap in that particular box. I did trap and kill two male sparrows last week but on the next check, a live bluebird was in the box. 

Merlin Wright at Brownville Nebraska

Haleya Priest wrote (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:42:23 -0400):

Dear bluebirders, I need help thinking about how to talk to a newspaper
about bluebirds in terms of HOSP. I think everything seems fine and
important to mention about HOSP up to trapping and disposing. Do you
just avoid that specific topic? I know this is a continual dilemma for
people doing bb talks as well as newpapers, etc. Thanks. H

I have a similar problem coming up. I will be giving a bluebird talk to pre-Brownies (5-6 year-olds, can't remember what they're called) in May. I plan to edit my talk and slide show and make it much shorter than usual, but what should I say about sparrows and predators? Are kids that age going to be traumatized by the raw facts? Even if they can take it, what are the mothers going to think? Any advice will be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
--Jill Miller MMS"at"TheMillers.com
--
A. Richard & Jill A. Miller | MILLER MICROCOMPUTER SERVICES |
Mailto:MMS"at"TheMillers.com | 61 Lake Shore Road |
Web: http://MMS.TheMillers.com/ | Natick, MA 01760-2099, USA |
Voice: 508/653-6136, 9AM-9PM -0400(EDT)| 42 18'00.79" N, 71 22'27.68" W|

I actually did my little HOSP spiel with my first graders yesterday. (We are doing a unit on birds; I always bring in a nest box, an old nest, an infertile egg, etc.) I put it this way. If you have a problem with fleas on your pets, you hae to get rid of the fleas. If you have flies or roaches in your house, you have to kill them. If you have rats or mice in the house, you have to deal with them.

HOSP are a species that someone brought over here, and it was a big mistake because they hurt lots of our native birds-- and I DO tell them about the birds with their heads pecked in.

The children always agree that the HOSP have to be got rid of. I tell them the options-- throw out the nests, prick the eggs, trap & kill. The kids do come up with curious solutions: drown them, flush them down the toilet. So we have a little talk about our responsibility to kill the HOSP with as little suffering, torture if you will, as we can, and a quick death is kinder in the long run. To date no parents have complained (fingers crossed!)

Rhonda Watts
Wailton, N.H.

Hello--

I'd like to inject another thought into this discussion of house sparrows, and especially regarding presenting information about them to children. As bluebirders, we are still citizens of the world and have responsibilities and dreams that go beyond caring for bluebirds.

I have no fondness for house sparrows because I've seen how destructive they can be to other birds. I also find their chirping to be incredibly monotonous and irritating. I kill house sparrows when I can because of their negative impact on native birds. But I always feel regret at having to take a life. They are, after all, merely seeing to their own survival in the way they know how, and did not arrive in the 'new world' of their own choice.

What I've found offensive in the discussion of house sparrows is the tendency to coat them with derogatory terms in order to justify killing them. They are 'rats', 'murderers', 'vermin', etc., and good people are obliged to hate them. Do we think it's okay to take this Message to children--that if you pile enough offensive names on a creature (or a person?), then hating, harming, killing is okay? Please think about where these little ones might apply that lesson. Haven't we had enough problems in this country from ungly generalizations? Think of all the names we have for persons of other races, other religions, other lifestyles that become justification for ugliness and sometimes for violence.

Isn't it possible to tell these children the truth? That we humans brought house sparrows to America from Europe, that they have been very successful at finding a niche in our country by their aggression to other birds, and that we are now trying to undo the harm that we unintentionally inflicted on our native birds? It seems to me it's possible to make a positive lesson about thinking of the consequences of our actions before we act, rather than a negative lesson that if you hate it's okay to kill.

Sorry to be so serious as I know the funny and sunny meszzzges are more enjoyable to read, but I needed to get this off my chest. It's been bothering me for some time, but it's the thought of what the children are learning that made me to decide to write.

Linda
SE Wyoming Grasslands, USA
ljand"at"vcn.com

Sorry, this is a bit long, and gets off topic...

In regard to bringing up the killing of HOSP when talking to children, yes, I do understand the concerns. At no time do I allow the children to think that I am removing HOSP for any other reason than to protect the native cavity nesters. I emphasize that this is the unpleasant part of bluebirding. There is no "art" to it-- it's a horrible responsibility, and I do not hide that fact. That is also why I bear down on the need to avoid any lingering suffering, however short. Further, I would not suggest (to any group, any age) that we perform an illegal act such as killing wrens.

I do not demonize HOSP; in fact, I told them these last few years about the HOSP as I saw them in England, and how really cute they could be, in their native habitat.

Reverence for life means one must be aware of both life and death. Some animals must kill to live; life is not "good & evil" Disney animals, they are simply bhaving as they must to live. The Native American Indians (who are part of my own ancestry) had an almost universal practice of giving thanks to the spirit of the animal they killed, for sustaining their lives. Wouldn't it be great if we could instil this in kids, to think about when they eat their suppers? I grew up on a family farm, and cared for the animals I would be seeing on my dinner plate; classmates seemed to think this was horrible, though they thought nothing of an anonymous hamburger. Care, respect, and kindness can go along with understanding the need for an animal's death, if someone takes the time to introduce this idea. Man may have been given dominion over the creature of the earth, but that implies an awesome responsibility.

So, Professor, I respect your concern that I'm discussing death along with life, but my hope is that my students will leave my class with a better understanding of both than they will get from watching today's movies, TV, and WWF. As we've said before, we can agree to disagree agreeably.

Off the soapbox.
Rhonda

Linda

Never apologize to take the time to express sensitivity and feelings for the taking of a life, even the HOSP. A quick aside- I have a friend who would not think of even stepping on an ant and yet, she frequently attends the bull fights in Spain. I asked her how she can accommodate those behaviors which are diametrically opposite. Her answer- "I don't dare think about it...."

Jerry Houser
Guilderland, NY (Capital District)

Linda, I'm glad you wrote and expressed your views about presenting the house sparrow problem to children. Your question (about what the children are REALLY learning and how it might very easily be generalized) is a good one. It's something every presenter to children should think about.

Meryle Henry
Mauston, WI
mhenry"at"mwt.net
lat 43:48:34.261N
lon 90:07:43.360W

...

I have to agree with you. I simply am not comfortable teaching young children about killing animals. Although the one year we had house sparrows around our nests, I told the children that some people killed them. I also said that I preferred to try a passive way of controlling them..such as piercing the eggs........I think I'd probably take the trail down before I'd kill the house sparrows at school..partially because I'm not sure whether I could kill them..and also because children tend to not be discriminate enough not to make some awful generalization later on...

Anyway..that's just my opinion.......
Take care all.

Nancy Bocian
Newtown, CT

3 eggs in the nest as of two days ago!! Yippee!!!! Will report on my school boxes weather permitting early in the week.

Excellent comments. I did not add this to my post, but it is definitely included as the more positive part of the total Message.

Kathy Clark
New Cumberland, PA

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