Problems with house sparrows on the bluebird trail

Discussion on Lime for Blowfly or HOSP (House Sparrow) Control

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: 

• Minimum diameter for House Sparrow entry by Frank Navratil
• House Sparrows by Steve Eno
• The Active and Passive Bluebirders by Bluebird Bob Walshaw and Jim McLochlin

[Note from webmaster: the original post appears to be in response to a post about using lime to control BLOW FLIES]

From: Keith & Sandy Kridler
Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 4:42 AM
Subject: Lime

....Testing lime: Anytime we think of an additive or treatment for nesting bluebirds we should do a test on House Sparrows or Starlings. Do a worst case scenario test. After the young sparrows hatch out dust them everyday twice a day with your test product and if it kills them then don't use it in a bluebird nest! If you use lime in a nestbox bottom I would use the "white wash" slurry as this will get hard and resist "dusting". Limestone itself is a natural product and birds nest in holes in limestone cliffs so I can't see where it will hurt the birds or blowflies either but might be worth trying.
I would test these products only in cities or areas where only House Sparrows or Starlings would use the box! They also get blowflies so you could see if they work before using on native cavity nesters.

To Mr.. Kridler and the constituency:

I find it very difficult to believe that only one other person as yet has replied to your suggestion of testing lime by sprinkling it on HOSP or starling nestlings.

I find the suggestion appalling, and I simply refuse to believe that I am alone in this.

I am no great lover of HOSPS, nor starlings, and like the rest of the group, would be more than happy if both species disappeared from this continent. I also am not opposed to killing them. However, there is a far cry between humanely killing a creature and torturing it.

If anyone really wants to find out how lime will affect bluebirds and/or other cavity nesters, I suggest that they do some research. I am quite certain that extensive testing has been done already. Using any wild creature as a test subject in a totally non-scientific way by "dusting them every day" with lime (which we know can be caustic) is not the answer.

I certainly hope that nobody decides to take Mr. Kridler's suggestion to heart!

Wendy Guglieri
Rescue, California

Hi Wendy!

Thank you for your response re: dusting HOSPS & starling nestlings. To allow either to reach the stage of hatching much less experimentation w/lime is senseless. It allows the parent of either to become attached to the box -- even at the demise of nestlings, they will surely return to raise another brood.

There are times I believe the whole concept of conservation is thrown to the winds to prove a point.

I did not deem it worth my time to respond to the suggestion of spinkling lime but you had the right motivation. There are many impressionable novices on this network and you had the patience to set the record straight. You have my gratitude.

Betty Nichols in cold Western Maryland.

After reading his many posts to this list, it surprises me that anyone thought Mr. Kridler was advocating the torture of little sparrows. I took his "dusting" instruction as referring to the testing of any substance we already felt was NOT harmful, prior to using it in a bluebird nestbox, just in case it had an unexpected effect. While this may be an unscientific test, it is similar to the "patch test" advocated every time a person wants to color their hair. Then he proceeded with a very informative post regarding the various forms of lime, which some people do not know can be harmful.

My post where I stated "...hydrated lime...I personally wouldn't try it on baby sparrows, either" was an additional caution to the poser of the question, NOT a castigation of Mr. Kridler, whom I consider to be a compassionate and knowledgeable man. Because as a chemist I have seen many people misuse chemicals, I felt an additional caution might be warranted.

Even the most eloquent writers have difficulty expressing things clearly, so please don't assume the worst when you read someone's post.

Kate Oschwald
Sumner, TX

Sprinkling lime on the nestlings reminds me of someone who wrote to this listserv shortly after its inception. He would place dry cement mix in areas where the sparrows would take their dust bath. Then the poor birds would go down to the pond to drink. You can imagine what happened to them.
LindaJ
Payson, AZ

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Boy! Let's see if you can wiggle out of this one!

Well my early morning posts seldom are as good as a well thought out afternoon posting... I really thought that after posting twice and having a couple other posts about how "BAD" hydrated lime is that no one subscribing to this list would even think about using that type of product for a serious test! I have forgotten how many new members to this list we must have picked up lately! (Anyone checked the numbers on the list lately?) My apologies to them and the others on this list!!

What I was really trying to take a pot shot at without naming names or hurting feelings is the number of other products that have been used and recommended for use in nest boxes this past season. Sulfur, rotenone, Sevin, House & garden sprays, Fly's Away II, Permetrin's, pyrethrums, cedar shavings and those just pop to mind....What about Ant killer now in a hole in the box bottom?? Is this under the nest? Many recommend placing a "product" under a completed nest but Bluebirds are very prone to "Tremble thrusts" or where the female for some strange reason will poke her beak down through the nest and "drum" like a woodpecker on the box bottom. (Several articles on this in old "Sialia's, quarterly journals of North American Bluebird Society) Also if sitting bluebirds are like chickens they get bored. I have often seen chickens reworking the nest and pulling material out from under them and remaking the nest all during incubation periods. They do this with their beak and could be exposed to a "product" that was on the box bottom. Also sometimes the nest cup bottom seems to disappear and eggs and babies end up on a bare wood bottom! Even though many dislike the House Sparrow I doubt if anyone on this list would have even considered "testing" any baby bird with the prior warnings about lime....At least I hope not! We do need to control non-native birds but we do not have to be unduly cruel in doing this!

There is NO labeled insecticide for use in any nestbox! It really does cost 10's of millions of $$ to complete all of the autopsy's and related testing for a single product and now this is only good for five years before the government requires it again! There is no way a "backyard" testing program can actually "certify" as safe ANY product we think of so.....I will take my lumps on this one but unlike Joan of Arc I will not stand brave and tall at the stake, I will be more like the Dallas Cowboy's football team, I will whine, whimper, blame others and make excuses.......You gotta admit that post will be at the top of Jim's "Most stupid posts to BLUEBIRD-L LIST" for a long, long time....KK

Hi - I am extremely glad that the lime-dust sprinkling idea has been amended. This list has verged on sadistic lately. I hope we have no more posts about lime, dry concrete mix, etc. used to maim house sparrows. I shoot them when they interfere with my bluebirds, but methods of slow torture are way out of line, and I don't want to read about them. Heaven knows the impression we are making on our newcomers!
Dot

For one would not be critical of Keith on use of lime on HOSP. Will say have used sevin for infested nests with great results. Last year in 128 boxes destroyed 73 HOSP caught in boxes 380 eggs and one day cleaned out 75 nest and eggs if present. In addition recall I cleaned out three dead tree swallows nest and one EBLB which HOSP had killed. One had built a nest on top of dead swallow. Anyone who monitor nests and find deadbluebirds and swallows with their heads pecked bare and bloody  dead surely will change their mind about ENGLISH SPARROWS
Robt Rager N/W Ohio

Bill
Savannah, TN

To Mr. Kridler and the constituency:

Since sending my post regarding the use of lime on HOSP nestlings, I have received many, MANY posts. Some were sent to the List at large and some to me personally.

Many folks had not read the entire post of Mr. Kridler's, as they weren't interested in the subject, and so had missed the "dusting" part at the end. I, on the other hand, ALWAYS read everything that you post, Keith. You appear to be a powerhouse of knowledge, and your posts are always very well written. I read them even when the subject does not seem to be of interest, because I'm afraid that there might be a little something in there that I might be interested in.

I am so very pleased to say that every one of the posts that I've read in response to my post agreed with me, including Mr. Kridler's! (Except for one, which thought that it was perfectly fine to do what you will with HOSPS). You are right, Keith, sometimes we are misinterpreted. My true concern was, as you stated, the number of new folks who might take this to heart. And I do know how you feel; remember the flack I received when I suggested that folks have their dogs chase the deer from their yards? Oh well, live and learn. If I'm not mistaken, that's what this List is all about.

So...enough of that! On a bright note: Through this national List I met a woman who lives but a few miles from me in El Dorado Hills! We've been in contact, and are going to be setting up a series of trails in our area. We both need a partner for a number of reasons and I'm absolutely thrilled to actually get a "real" trail going! I've only had 3 boxes in the past. So now I'm reading all those posts that I used to think were boring, about building a better nest box, etc, etc.

I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge that can be gained from participating in this ListServe, and especially folks like you, my dear Mr. Kridler, who have so much to share.

Wendy Guglieri
Rescue, California (where we're finally getting some rain - have gone from 22% of normal to 45%)

So enough about this subject, wouldn't you say?

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