House Sparrow Attacks

Also see other HOSP information under Passive Control, Philosophy, Lime, General, Disposal, etc.

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: 

• Minimum diameter for House Sparrow entry by Frank Navratil
• House Sparrows by Steve Eno
• The Active and Passive Bluebirders by Bluebird Bob Walshaw and Jim McLochlin

From: Beverly [mailto:beverly925 "at"verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: Question about Sparrows bothering Swollows

Can anyone tell me if English Sparrows bother Tree Swollows the same way they do the bluebird? Do they destroy their eggs, kill their young, or steal their nests? I've never seen this and since the swollow is more aggressive than the bluebird I am thinking that the sparrow probably doesn't do much damage to the population of swollows or other birds for that matter. Thanks for your help, Bev Wiksten (aka Snowbird)

From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot "at"mtco.com]
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:12 AM
e: Question about Sparrows bothering Swollows

Bev, this spring, there was complete chaos at one of my tree swallow nestboxes. On three different occasions, male house sparrows harassed the swallows enough that they abandoned their nest. I had erected a temporary nestbox nearby, hoping that the sparrows would use it. HA! They fought off the swallows so well that the swallows wound up at the empty nestbox. That's okay, as then I was able to use a Van Ert trap in the nestbox, trapping the sparrow. The tree swallow would then return to the original nestbox. Lots of time was lost for this pair of tree swallows. The house sparrows learned to sit in the nestbox entryway, thus avoiding direct hits from the swallows. As the swallows are such slow-pokes about selecting a nestbox and building a nest, there is much more time for the sparrows to wreck havoc. And as I have stated many times before, just because you don't witness sparrow torturing other birds, doesn't mean that it's not going on. IMO, besides erecting nestboxes with baffles, dispatching sparrows & starlings is the best thing that I can do for native birds. After 17 years of observation, the sparrows in our area are definitely more prone to nest-stealing, breaking eggs,and killing, when the sparrow populations are up. When I keep the population down to just spotting one or two sparrows a week, there are almost no problems. Just like the saying goes "There's courage in numbers". Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5)

From: Maynard R Sumner [mailto:m-r-sumner "at"juno.com]
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 3:43 PM
Re: Question about Sparrows bothering Swallows

Bev, Yes to all you asked. I have to keep after the English Sparrows all the time or I would not any Tree Swallows. Maynard Sumner Flint, MI

From: Torrey [mailto:torrey_canyon "at"yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 6:10 PM
Re: Question about Sparrows bothering Swallows

House sparrows will not only destroy the eggs & kill the young, they will kill adult tree swallows in the boxes. I covered some golf course trails one summer, & it was a real problem. (Most of the boxes were "tight", where a swallow didn't have room to use its long wings to buffet an opponet.) I used dead swallows to educate some golfers, but that's not worth their lives. If you have a local raptor rehabber, they might be interested in sparrow carcasses or eggs, in which case you'd be helping native birds even more. Torrey Moss Kalamazoo Nature Center Kalamazoo, MI

From: DottyRogers "at"netscape.net [mailto:DottyRogers "at"netscape.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 1:01 PM
RE: Question: Sparrows vs Swallows

Hi Bev: I agree wholeheartedly with all that's been said about house sparrows & tree swallows -- & will add a further tidbit. We expect & do lose 4-6 female tree swallows every year to sparrow attacks, whereas it's unusual for us to lose a single bluebird; same period). (150 blues/85 swallows fledged: '04.) And Torrey was right on with the reason; our boxes have 4 1/2 x 4 1/2" interiors & the TRES have a hard time getting out with those long wings. They just hunker down. That's why we trap like demons early on. Dot

This is a busy time of year. I checked my trail for the second time this week. I captured the male HOSP that killed the TRES on Monday, but found two more TRES pecked to death in nest boxes on my trail. They were both most definitely HOSP attacks. In one box, I heard scuffling as I approached. A male HOSP flew out of box as I put bag up to block the hole.
I saw him fly out and assumed he was the only one in there so I took the bag down and out flew a female HOSP. Inside, was a dead TRES, beheaded.
Apparently they had worked as a team on this bird and I happened upon them during the deed. I am thus naming this pair of HOSP's "Bonnie and Clyde".
The HOSP on my trail seem especially vicious this year. I only lost one TRES to them last year. This year, I have lost three already. I have two completed EABL nests on the trail, but no eggs yet. I fear for them - I am trying to capture Bonnie and Clyde before they kill any other birds.

Paula Z
Powell (Central) Ohio

Will somebody please send me the URL. I've seen it here before on the list. Since I'm digest, please E-mail it to me. Oh yay, I just was told how very awful I am by someone because I shoot HOSP.

Thanks,
Autumn in Kentucky

Hi Autumn - there are accounts of house sparrow (HOSP) attacks at http://www.sialis.org/hospattacks.htm and also some photos (graphic.)

Additional info on the HOSP problem, and methods of active and passive HOSP control at http://www.sialis.org/hosp.htm

History of introduction of HOSP and why they have successfully proliferated at http://www.sialis.org/hosphistory.htm.

My neighbors used to come over and release HOSP from ground traps in my yard. We had a lot of discussions, and I asked them to read about the HOSP attacks, and told them some experiences on my trail. It is still very difficult for them to accept, but they seem to understand now. I think it's made a little easier since they know that I donate all trapped HOSP and starlings to a local raptor recovery center. And after four years of HOSP control, the melodious song of the bluebird is actually more common than the chirp of a HOSP in BOTH our yards.

My own thinking about HOSP has evolved over the last few years. I don't think they are "evil" (see http://www.sialis.org/hospbehavior.htm ) but personally I believe I have responsibility as a trail monitor to manage populations in the most effective way I can. I use almost every passive control method there is, and also use active methods. However, I am realizing that just like I don't want folks to impose their beliefs on me, I should not try to impose my own beliefs on others. Every individual has to make a personal choice, but hopefully it is an informed decision.

I respect that some people feel very strongly that no living creature, including HOSP, should be harmed by humans. I don't put nestboxes on their property, and I don't discuss HOSP control with them.

FYI, in CT, someone was sued for killing a Norway rat in their backyard with a hoe.

Bet from CT

From: Lee & Jim Johnson [mailto:mybuffy1"at"mindspring.com]
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:13 PM
Subject: Sparrow Attack

I have been on the List for about 5 yrs. and have not posted for quite sometime.

I am in the process of watching a sparrow attack on a nest with babies. I went out to water my flowers and saw Mom and Pop. Right in front of my eyes I saw another bird go into the nestbox. I went over screaming, opened the box and discovered one of the babies bleeding from (it appeared) the eye. Mom and Pop surprised me in that they didn't seem agressive, but seemed scared, and very cautiously watched from the top of the house. They have been going to another box in the yard. Is there anything I can do? The babies are about a week to week in a half. With so much commotion, I don't know if there are any dead ones in the box or not.

Lee in Missouri

RE: Dick Stauffer
Sent: May 16, 2005
RE: Sparrow Attack

I was out checking my nestboxes today and this is what I found. [photo of TRES]
This Tres was still alive after a Hosp had pecked it eyes out and damaged it's skull! There were 2 other dead Tres in the box. Trust me this Hosp has a limited time on this earth!!

Dick Stauffer

From: Ann&Tom Long [mailto:longann"at"pacinfo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2040 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Hosp Attack

I wouldn't have thought that HOSP would be much of a problem out there in the wide open spaces you have!
I lost a family of six TRES, both adults and four 8 day old chicks, all killed in the box by a male HOSP. He was sitting on the roof being dive bombed by about a half dozen TRES when I came along. I set a trap in the box but he never returned. There was a empty nest box on the next fence post about 10-12 feet away.

Tom Long
Western Oregon

From: Lee & Jim Johnson [mailto:mybuffy1"at"mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:59 PM
Subject: 2 Babies Survive Sparrow Attack

Upon waking this morning, I realized it was very quiet and calm around the nestbox. My first hope was the sparrows had finally left the BB's alone. My better instincts told me something was wrong. I went to the box and discovered 3 dead babies and two barely-alive ones. We have another box about 100 ft., so I decided to move the remaining two with the nest. My husband grabbed the nest (it broke in half), so we had to basically stuff it in the box as best we could. On top of the nest, we laid the two babies. I was very afraid they weren't going to make it since their heartbeats didn't seem too strong. Poor Mom and Pop kept going to the empty box and just staring at it in disbelief. Within 10 mins. or so, Dad was looking in the new box and realized they were there. My husband called me at work about midday to tell me Dad was bringing mealworms to them to eat. I didn't look when I got home--they have been through enough. He has been feeding them. I only hope they are strong enough to survive; if so, it won't be long before they fledge. Of course, now, I wish I had done that when I checked the box and saw 4 living. At least not all of them were fatalities. We are watching for the sparrow again, and get him, I GUARANTEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lee in Missouri

From: Jody Jackson [mailto:jodyrn"at"bright.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: HOSP in my nestbox?

[In response to an email where someone's wife did not want him to dispatch HOSP.]
...If your wife could see what I just (about a half hour ago) took out of my nest box she may change her mind. The box had a nest of Tree Swallows with eggs - not sure how many because every time I looked inside the box,the devoted female was sitting on the nest. Today I saw a DREADED house sparrow sitting on the box, but had to go to a class for my job. When I came home the sparrow was still sitting on the box. That made me VERY nervous so I went to check.
And when I opened the box a dead Tree Swallow fell out at my feet. I could have cried. And then - -if that wasn't bad enough - there was another dead Tree Swallow in the nest. The eggs are all smashed. Both have the typical head wounds of the attack of the House Sparrow.
House Sparrows will do the same thing to Bluebirds (or any other bird it finds in the box).
So when you allow your house sparrow to continue to nest in the box, lay eggs and raise more - it defeats my purpose of trying to increase the bluebird population. I am so angry right now about this event. My trap is set to capture this little devil.
Jody
Central Ohio

From: JBrindo"at"aol.com [mailto:JBrindo"at"aol.com]
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 7:42 AM
Subject: blood bath in BB box

Hello everyone. Last night I visited my daughter Sally who had four BB babies in one of her three boxes. I built two of the boxes as Christmas gifts for the grandchildren. They watched the nest be built in one, six BB eggs laid, four eggs hatch, and four babies grow to about 16 days old.
She notice much activity around the box night before last and said she thought maybe the four young were getting ready to fledge. I told her they shouldn't be ready for a few more days and just be patient. Last night while visiting, I checked the box. She new right away from my face something was very wrong. I opened the box that had the four babies to find the remain of a House Sparrow attack. All four babies slaughtered. I told them to clean the box after the kids were put to bed and hope the parents will return to try again. They seem more interested in helping the Bluebirds now, then ever before. For my own personal 49 boxes, I just purchased a pellet gun this week. I'm a very good shot!
Happy Holiday to everyone.
Jay Brindo
Mountain Glen Farm Trail
Northeast Ohio

Last week a male HOSP entered my bluebird box and totally destroyed all four
eggs. He threw them out of the box, all were pecked open. Thank goodness
neither the male or female bluebird were hurt. The HOSP has since been
trapped and disposed of, but what do I do with the bluebird nest? The
bluebirds are still hanging around, and the female has put a few pieces of
grass in my other nestbox, but she really doesn't seem to be building a nest
in that box. They both still go to the other box. Do I remove the
completed nest in that box, or will they eventually re-use it for the next
brood? That was the box that they seemed to prefer all spring. Any advice
would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Linda
Roseto PA

Sorry about the HOSP trouble.

I think I would leave it if it isn't dirty with egg yolk. I had a pair
build a nest in one box, then move to another. I left the nest alone since
it wasn't used, and a pair (maybe the same one) has now moved in and added
some finishing touches.

Good luck!

Shawn in Sevierville, TN

From: Gretchen Hughes [mailto:lghughes"at" joink.com ]
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: dirty rotten mean spatsies

Hi, As I was monitoring my 50 box trail in and around town, as I pulled up to check a box, I saw 2 sparrows going in and out of a bluebird box, and 2 tree swallows fighting them--I walked up to the box and saw 5 baby TS on the ground. The sparrows had pulled them out of the box. I gently picked them and held them in my hand and replaced them in the box. I knocked on the door and told the lady there what I had done, and she said she would sit in her lawn chair and keep watch over them.
I don't know what happened after that, but I felt as tho I had perhaps saved their lives.
Loren Hughes-Pres. East Central IL Bluebird Society
1234 Tucker Beach Rd
Paris, IL 61944

From: RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com [mailto:RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:16 PMu
Subject: Re: dirty rotten mean spatsies

Hi Loren,

Strange how HOSP succumb to the same evils that some humans do. Don't know what to make of it. Thanks for saving the nestlings.

Ron
Brooksville, FL

Hi Gretchen! Unfortunately, I doubt the house sparrows (HOSP) will give up.

My first experience with HOSP was with a tree swallow (TRES) nest. The TRES babies were a few days from fledging. The HOSP perched on the box and pestered the TRES relentlessly for three days and would not let them near the box to feed the nestlings. I sat in a chair by the nestbox for those three days, pitching rocks and yelling every time the HOSP came near, to no avail. They all starved.

This was before I knew about any kind of passive or active control methods. Now I use almost all of them. Monofilament, sparrow spookers, magic halo on feeders, nestbox traps, ground traps, pellet gun, etc. I haven’t had a loss to HOSP on my trail in 3 years. However, I continue to manage populations, because if I didn't, I expect it would soon get out of control again. According to some hypothetical calculations I ran, 2 birds (one pair) could quintuple the population in one year, and could theoretically multiply to 1,250 birds in 5 years.

Bet from CT
When HOSP attack - http://www.sialis.org/hospattacks.htm
Are HOSP Evil? – http://www.sialis.org/hospbehavior.htm
HOSP control methods – active and passive - http://www.sialis.org/hosp.htm Handout for people with unmanaged nestboxes used by HOSP - http://www.sialis.org/neglect.htm HOSP proliferation (calculations) http://www.sialis.org/hospnumbers.htm

From: SHERRY KANARAS [mailto:basketcasesherry"at"verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: HOSP disaster!

I have a nesting EABB pair that had two eggs laid this week, and they have been fighting off a HOSP. I have NAILED the male3 times w/a borrowed bb gun, not powerful enought to kill it unfortunately. The last time was from 4 feet away! I thought that would do it, but today I came home from my son's graduation to spot both HOSP at the box, and before I could get there the male threw out both eggs, and of course they broke. This has never happened, I don't know what to do. The EABB are sitting there looking confused. Should I wash away the remains of the eggs?? Will they know the HOSP did this?? I don't want them to think I did it. This pair is very tame, the female will take worms from my open hand. I am crying like a baby while typing this--any advice would be SO appreciated. I can not sit and monitor the box 24/7, I work! Thanks,
Sherry Kanaras
Perryville, MD
Cecil County

From: roy pischer [mailto:tlp4456"at"msn.com]
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:03 AM
Subject: Fw: When House Sparrows Attack

Some of my friends accuse of being a little obsessive about the HOSPs... but I want you to take a look at this website so you will know why I believe in HOSP genocide: http://www.sialis.org/hospattacks.htm This could happen to your Bluebirds... --

Trudy Pischer
Willard, MO 65781

I know that this is a delayed response, but I have been having computer problems for the past week and a half.

Will HOSP attack HOSP? I can't answer that because I have never seen ADULTS attacking each other where the outcome was death or injury to one, but I can tell you that living and working in the city Monday - Friday for the past 20 years I have seen male and female HOSP take eggs and young out of nests not their own and drop them (in fact today I found 3 smashed HOSP eggs underneath a favorite "colony" nesting spot on the college campus where I work - I know, I know, I've been campaigning for years that nesting shouldn't be allowed to happen, but my words and documents fall on deaf ears - too many other campus projects that take priority).

My mother put out a decorative bird box on her porch a couple months ago and HOSP moved in a month later (I told her to plug the hole, but....), she called me all upset one evening that one of the babies had fallen out (she found 2 dead siblings next to it on her porch floor), I told her to leave it alone, but she was very upset so told her put it back in to the nest, the parents will take care of it - five minutes later she called me back telling me NOW she knew why I called them brutal, vicious birds - she witnessed a female take the baby back out and carry it even farther then drop it. She blocked the entrance withing 5 minutes.

Adult HOSP may not attack each other the way they attack our natives, but they are certainly just as ruthless with HOSP eggs and young.

kimmarie :)
Buffalo/Varysburg, Western NY

I dont know if you remember about a week ago i mentioned my box of 6 babies attacked,killed, and thrown out of the box. The TRES left the scene and are not renesting. Today i come home from work to check on my 5 EABL babies and find 1 dead on the ground and the other 4 missing. The male EABL was around and singing. I havent seen the female yet. Their first nest also failed due to a wet muddy nest and the babies 14 days old being fed earthworms and died. This has been the worst year ever. The 2nd TRES nest i had failed because the female left the scene and left 4 eggs. I cleaned out the nest and she came back 2 weeks later. She began building and left again and hasnt returned. The male TRES just sits near the box all day. so half of the failed nests are due to HOSP attacks. This is all going to change when my Deluxe Repeating Elevator Sparrow Trap arrives tommorow. Every HOSP deserves to die. I am sick of what they do for no reason. Even though the trap is $50, you cant put a price on EABL and TRES babies. so if you have HOSP dont let this happen to you. i may have no succesful nests this year due to HOSP.

Tyler in West Central OH

Hang in there Tyler. Be persistent with your trap and your resolve and
you will have EABL and TRES next year. It's not too late for the EABL's
to nest again this year once you get rid of the HOSP's. -- Trudy
Pischer

Hello All.....

In a nestbox on one of my trails, this past Tuesday, five healthy Bluebird chicks broke out of their shells. Everything went well for the first two days.

As I approached the box on my last visit, I immediately sensed trouble. Neither of the parents were present...???

Upon opening the box, it became instantly obvious that something was terribly wrong.

The box was now filled with a new HOSP nest. Near the bottom of the HOSP nest, looking closely, I could see blue feather tips.

I went back to my car and got my camera. Back at the box, I carefully began removing the HOSP nest. Sure enough, on top of what had been the BB nest, was the carcass of the male BB, his head pecked open. He died attempting to protect his family and their home. The five babies were gone, I never saw the female.

I have a grisly set of six photos that I will share with anyone who wants to explicitly see what happens when HOSP catch native cavity nesters on a nest. Drop me a note and I'll
e-mail the photos to those who may be interested.

Bruce Macdonald, SW Ontario, North shore of Lake Erie

From: lviolett [mailto:lviolett"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: 3-Day old hatchlings Lost

Bruce, I read your post with great interest since you were one of the folks on Bluebird-L to whom I sent free 2-holers years ago. Could you, therefore, describe the box in which the adult male was killed? Specifically, did the box provide a second "escape" hole and what was the inside measurement of the box from side-to-side and front-to-back.

You also state that the adult male " . . . died attempting to protect his family and their home." which I find interesting because the vast majority of adult Bluebirds on my trail don't sacrifice their lives in saving their families IF given the chance to escape. So I'm curious (since you have at least one 2-holer) about the box style in which the tragedy occurred and whether the male was trapped by HOSP rather than willingly giving his life to protect his family. Very sorry to hear of the loss, by the way.

Linda Violett
Yorba Linda, Calif.

From: Brucemac1"at"aol.com [mailto:Brucemac1"at"aol.com]
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 10:32 PM
Subject: Fwd: 3-Day old hatchlings Lost

In a message dated 5/12/2006 9:03:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Brucemac1 writes:
Hello Linda.....
It was not the two-holer that you sent to me. Your box is occupied by a pair of TRES and their newly laid eggs. I've gotta' tell you, birds LOVE that box...!! It has never gone unused.

Earlier this season, a pair of HOSP attempted to claim it. I waited until nest construction was well underway then placed a "Sticky Mouse Trap" inside. In a matter of minutes, I had both male & female HOSP. they were immediately placed in my repeating trap as decoys.

I suppose that you're correct in guessing that the male BB was trapped by the HOSP. The box was not one of mine either. It was a standard NABS design, 4" x 4" x 10", 1-1/2" entrance.

Thank you for asking and caring. Thank you, too, for all your important contributions to our list.

Bruce

From: Autumn L. Kruer [mailto:autumnk"at"iglou.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:30 AM
Subject: RE: 3-Day old hatchlings Lost

Bruce, I’m very sorry this happened. I dread it here and have lucked out so far by catching it first and getting rid of the HOSP that show up. I still work at home with my window cracked listening for that awful chirp of what I call the “Wal-Mart bird” and a 16 gauge shotgun loaded on my porch. I don’t care what anyone says, in my book the only good HOSP is a dead HOSP. And I know there is a good chance that some day they’ll fly in a box before I can stop it. Sigh.

Again, I’m very sorry. I know I’d be very upset to open a box here and find what you did inside of it.

Autumn in Kentucky

From: Curt Jacoby [mailto:curtisbrown73"at"yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:18 AM
Subject: House sparrow wars

An update from a backyard Peterson box in Madison, WI:

Five of the six Eastern bluebird eggs hatched May 11th or 12th, and the pair kept busy feeding the chicks. During the afternoon of the 17th, I noticed the pair chattering and wing-flapping on my deck and looked over toward the box in time to see a male house sparrow flying out with a chick in its beak, which he dropped about 10 feet away. (!!!) I went out to examine the chick; it seemed to be no worse for the wear, so I placed it back in the box. I put some mealworms out, and the female quickly took some in to feed to the chicks. When she exited the box, she landed away from the mealworms and fluttered around a spot in the grass, so I took a look and found ANOTHER chick (this time about 15 feet from the box). Again, it seemed to be okay (though a bit cold), so I warmed it up and put it in the box. Over the next three or four hours, the male house sparrow came back to the box multiple times. Two or three times the female bluebird was in the box at the time, and the house sparrow ejected her in a cloud of feathers. The sparrow pulled chicks out of the box three more times. One chick's beak was injured (the tip was sort of crushed), but the others were fine, and I returned all of them to the box. At that point, I didn't know what else to do. I placed an extra Peterson box near some trees about 50 feet away, hoping that might distract the sparrow. He checked it out, but returned to the bluebird box anyway. While I stayed outside, the bluebirds would feed the chicks, the female would remain inside the box for 10-15 minutes (it was a chilly and very windy day, so maybe she was brooding them?), and the male sparrow would stay away from their box. As soon as I would go inside, however, the sparrow would make another attack. I thought maybe the bluebirds were having trouble defending their box in the wind (we were having gusts of 20-30 mph, and the male bluebird appeared to have trouble maneuvering), so after a while I just stayed outside until the female went into the box around 8:00pm, and it seemed dark enough that the sparrow was done for the day. The next morning I woke up at 5am, waited for the male bluebird to arrive, saw the female leave the box, placed mealworms out for them, watched the pair carry worms into the box, saw them remove 3 fecal sacs, and then the house sparrow returned. Even without the wind, the bluebirds could not defend their box. Again, the house sparrow pulled out 3 chicks, caught the female inside the box and removed some of her feathers, and could not be deterred. When the female bluebird carried out a dead chick (really surprising) with a gash in its head, I finally realized that this was NOT going to end well. So I called an emergency vet service, asked if they took in passerine chicks, gathered the four surviving chicks, and took them away. I didn't know what else to do. It seemed clear to me that this was going to be a losing battle.

My question for all of you experts: What SHOULD I have done?

I don't own a pellet gun, and it would have taken me at least an hour or two to buy a sparrow trap. And that male house sparrow was not alone in the neighborhood. (There were others watching his efforts.)
Within 2 hours of losing their chicks, the bluebirds moved down the block (about 200-300 yards away) to a different backyard box. I then took down both of my boxes. A male house sparrow often sits on the top of the post where the bluebird box was. My plan is to put the boxes up this fall with sparrow traps to try to put a dent in the sparrow population (before hoping for better results next spring), but I might just be living in too urban of a setting. Any ideas?

Curt in Madison, WI

From: Michelle Pesce [mailto:mkpesce"at"gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: Interesting day

Had an interesting day checking the nest boxes, just thought I'd share...

Every so often I'll catch an adult in one of the nest boxes, but it's rare that I'll find one that was banded in a previous year. This week I caught a male tree swallow that was banded as an adult on the trail two years ago (two years and one day, to be exact).

Last week, I found a house sparrow nest for the first time on the trail. This week, when I checked the box of the sparrows' closest neighbors, I found a dead female tree swallow in the nest. Her body was intact, but her head was destroyed and only the skull remained. I removed the body from the nest (saved it for educational purposes - yes, we have a permit for that). The box had a nest, but no eggs. Do you guys think there's any chance another tree swallow will move in? Or is it too late in the season? Most of the other TRES on the trail have had eggs for a week now. The HOSP eggs were shaken, but I don't think I'll bother with trapping - there's just that one HOSP nest that I've seen in two years, and I really never see them around the area, it's pretty remote.

Oh, and I've got seventeen bluebird babies, and one egg left to go. The wildilfe hospital has two EABL babies also, brought in from somebody else's trail.

My digital camera survived two and a half years and traveling through three countries, but it has finally given up on me. Looking forward to getting a digital SLR and then I should really have some great pictures for you guys. :)

~Michelle

From: denisefarmer"at"comcast.net [mailto:denisefarmer"at"comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting day

Micelle,

I have one box where a TRSW died in it and the box is still empty weeks later

Denise
Parkville, MD

Hi,

I am new to the site and am very troubled about what has progressed with my BB nest boxes. I live on 2-3 acres and have 2 nest boxes in my yard (one in the front and one in the back). I have been "raising" bluebirds for 7 years now and usually each box produces 3-4 nests each year. About
2 or 3 years ago my front box began to get swallows competing for occupation. Since swallows are acceptable I just let nature take it's course. However, at the end of last season there were HOSP that took over the front box completely. Once I realized that they were here to stay I kept removing their eggs. I figured as long as they weren't bothering my other BB nest box and they weren't reproducing all would be fine. Much to my dismay, last week I noticed new sparrows at my back box. The bluebirds did have one nestful so far, but as soon as they fledged then here came the HOSP. Well, a few days ago I was horrified to find the male bluebird dead inside of his own home! The male sparrow killed him and claimed the box for his own. After some shedding of tears (we have had this pair for
7 years and the female is still searching for him), I took the box down.
I would rather have no BB box if it's going to attract more sparrows. ...

Pat
Hunterdon County, N.J.
jpdougherty"at"juno.com

From: Brucemac1"at"aol.com [mailto:Brucemac1"at"aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: TRES

Phil wrote: As a side note, my neighbor feeds HOSP's in her driveway two houses
away. I've caught 35 HOSP's with my van erts and she still has a flock
at her house every day. (although it's a lot smaller than it was). I've
tried to educate her but she just thinks I'm the devil for trying to
catch her little friends. Oh well, they don't bother my EABL's and if
they check out my yard they usually don't leave
Phil
Honeoye Falls, NY (south of Rochester)

Hello Phil & All.....

If you'd like, I can send a few photos depicting precisely what her "Little Friends" can do to nesting Bluebirds & Tree Swallows. You can print them for her to see.
Let me know if you're interested.

Bruce Macdonald, SW Ontario, South of Detroit

Thanks Bruce,
I've shown her some graphic photos but it didn't help, she just isn't going to change. She has even threatened to put houses in her yard for the HOSP's but she hasn't yet.
Phil

From: roy pischer [mailto:tlp4456"at"msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: TRES

Bruce, how frustrating for you! Get yourself a Deluxe Repeating HOSP Trap (www.sparrowtraps.net) and keep after those HOSP. We have caught as many as 24 in one week! Keep after your neighbor too... I'd keep showing her the photos on www.sialis.org That's how I was convinced HOSP were more than "handsome little birds." And.. keep reminding her that HOSP (and starlings) are non-native, introduced bird to North America. Does she have other "little friends" like Tufted Titmice, Hairy and Downey Woodpeckers, Chickadees? The HOSP will go after these little guys too. In fact, I had a little Titmouse at my feeder last week who had obviously been attacked by something. The back of his little head was bloody. He was slowly drinking from the birdbath and came up to get some safflower. He's recuperated slowly. I used to have one little pair of Titmice.. but I bet not anymore... Keep after her!

Trudy Pischer
Willard, MO

From: T LINEHAN [mailto:gtlinehan"at"msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:34 PM
Subject: Two Barn Swallow Babies Thrown on the Ground

Been trapping HOSP for at least two months now, the numbers are going down (22 HOSP dispatched) I have a Deluxe Repeating House Sparrow Trap outside right now with 2 decoys. I can't seem to catch this one male HOSP that went after my only pair of Barn Swallows under the eve of our workshop. Will he eventually go in the trap I have out? The nestlings were 8 days old. He even dumped the two eggs that didn't hatch. I found the two nestlings late in the morning they were already dead. I keep beating myself up, if only I discovered them earlier I could have put them back in the nest cup. My question is were the two nestling dead already? I have read the male HOSP will break their necks before discarding them on the ground. The Barn Swallow pair hasn't returned.

On a good note, 6 WEBL eggs being incubated by mama (second brood) and ready to hatch around 7/1. The
two juveniles now finding their own food. Can wait to see them help mama and papa feed the nestlings.

Gail Linehan
Grants Pass, OR

From: fitz [mailto:smokem"at"chartermi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Two Barn Swallow Babies Thrown on the Ground

House sparrows usually peck on their victims heads. I think the male sparrow does that instinctively as well as tossing them out of the nest box he wants. I don't believe they intentionally break their victims necks but the baby birds are so delicate it may well happen on the way out and down. If the swallows were really young, you probably couldn't have saved them.
After two months of trapping, 22 HOSP gone for good, is great. Now that one killer male sparrow that hasn't been trapped needs to see something new since he hasn't been trapped by now with your repeating trap. Maybe you should try a Van Ert in-box trap. Give him a nice wooden box to think about. They go for it every time I've used my Huber wooden trap box. It has a metal piece inside that falls down over the hole when the sparrow jumps inside the box and lands on a thin piece of wire. I have drilled a 1 1/8" hole in the bottom of the box just in case a chickadee goes inside, it can escape.
Carol
Oxford, Michigan

Hi,

I have experienced first hand a male HOSP breaking the necks of baby white-breasted nuthatches without pecking their heads. I witnessed the attack.

Donna in Marlborough, CT

Hello everyone,

I am new here and also new to being a bird watcher, ie: Bluebirds ! I have grown to love them, currently have 4 houses in the back yard and more being build as I type. I also am a new MAMA but to date have not been able to peek inside. Both parents are very attentive and I am held captive by their beauty. I suppose you could say I am hooked on BB's.

What I know I have learned by trial and error and my first pair this Spring came to a sad ending. Since I have bird feeders I also have too many Sparrows....one is too many for me. The Sparrows tried so hard to rid the box of my first pair and finally they did. Not seeing him for 2 days, I checked the box and he had been killed on the nest, little head nearly pecked off. The little female stayed around for a couple more days then disappeared. Probably became a victim of the Sparrows as well. I then started checking all the boxes and found one that the Sparrow nest had many Bluebird feathers in it and that made me sick. Since that day, I have made it my goal in life to rid the world of Sparrows if anyway possible.

Luckily, my new male Bluebird is a fighter and he defends his little house with everything he can do.
I watch him all I can because the Sparrows gang up on him.

I appreciate any information on what to expect when the fledglings leave the nest and that should be any day now.

Thanks for sharing, have a good evening and excuse my manners. My name is Ernestine Patterson, I am called *Teen* and I live in Huntsville, Alabama.

Bye for now,

Teen

....

I am sorry for your loss. I've been more fortunate than most. I have never lost a Bluebird parent or nestling to a House Sparrow, but I just monitor yardbirds and have always been fortunate enough to be around frequently enough to remove from the equation any House Sparrows that try to take over my nest boxes. I think I'm the only Bluebirder I know that has been that lucky.

BUT, that's why I think the future of Bluebird conservation depends on the "backyard bluebirder". Without all trail devotees I would never be able to say that. The trail monitors paved the trail for the rest of us by keeping the BB species alive and helping expand their range.
Both are invaluable to Bluebird conservation.

If your fledglings are between 14-18 days from hatching, I don't think House Sparrows are your immediate concern, but they can never be ruled out. I try to get rid of them the minute I see them. Send me an email off list and I'll send you some Van Ert traps and we can discuss agressive House Sparrow control.

In my experience, you never know what to expect after fledging. I've had the whole family come back and the first brood help with the second nesting, and I've had them disappear forever. You can't radio collar them and find out. I think a lot of it has to do with foraging area and availabity of nest cavities.

On a final note, you were gracious enough to refer to yourself as a "newbie", but I've always had the gut reaction that word is a euphemism. I can't stand the way we use that term here. I was referred to as a "newbie" when I first started posting here, and I wasn't a beginner with Bluebirds. To me, it still smacks of "being new to our club" and "our club" needs all the people interested in Bluebird conservation we can find. We're lucky to have every single new person interested in Bluebirds that finds this List and should find an acronym to refer to them as an honored new participant.

....

Rob Barron
Warrenton, Virginia

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 5:21 PM
Subject: video clip of HOSP attack

Tony Carita of FL (who just joined the listserv) captured this interesting footage of a HOSP attack.

http://www.sialis.org/hospattackvid.htm

Or else it’s footage of HOSP mating…. In any case, looks brutal. You can see how difficult it would be for another bird to escape….

Bet from CT

From: mrtony8 [mailto:philip.berry"at"mchsi.com]
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: video clip of HOSP attack

Bet,
That is astonding. Although all of us have experienced the end results of these rats, seeing it is amazing. Hard to argue in the HOSP favor, isn't it? Even I can be swayed into thinking they are just cute little birds when they don't bother me.
BTW, you do an outstanding job on your website. I believe it to be the very best source for blurbirders on the web.
Phil Berry

Hi group,

I agree wholeheartedly with Phil that that video is astounding! I just wish it showed more clearly what species of bird was being attacked.
We Bluebirders can all tell but I'm not sure the general public could.
Regardless, a bird that attacks any bird in a nest box that viciously is hard to view as cute, even though native birds and other animals do the same thing all the time. It's a tough world out there for wildlife and plants.

I also agree with Phil Berry that Bet Zimmerman's tireless efforts provide more useful information to Blueirders than anything that I have ever seen on the web, and even though not everyone has web access yet, it is getting closer daily to being available to everyone regardless of income, ethnic background, religion or politics. Bet does all this for free, out of her passion for bluebirds and ecology, and she isn't selling ANYTHING but free knowledge and love of nature.
She humbly ends every message with a comment that corrections or suggestions for improvement are welcome.

For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting Bet, she is one of the nicest, smartest, most energetic, most inspiring people you could ever hope to meet. She han NEVER failed to respond to a single email from me, and no matter how busy she is, her responses are always cheerful and informative. Bet Zimmerman deserves to be in the Bluebird Hall of Fame!

On that note, people who bring their passion, interpersonal and carpentry skills like Keith Kridler, are just as important. People like Evelyn Cooper who have the knowledge and patience to deal with starting and fostering local and state organizations, and still manage BB trails mever cease to amaze me. People like Bruce Burdette who singlehandedly has done more for Bluebirds in New Hampshire than a lot of State organizations have done with hundreds of helpers.

I've only mentioned a few of the people I know who have tirelessly helped Bluebirds and other native birds. As Keith Kridler mentioned, there are probably hundreds of other people quietly helping Bluebirds, many of whom don't belong to NABS or post here on Bluebird-L. That's pretty encouraging to think about.

Rob Barron
Warrenton, Virginia

From: David Gwin [mailto:David.Gwin"at"cityofcarrollton.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: video clip of HOSP attack

Morning, All:

I realize we are all trying to head down the "this is why we hate HOSP" path in regards to this video clip, but I am going to have to tag on to Rob's comments when I relay that, earlier this breeding season, I personally witnessed a pair of Eastern Bluebirds SAVAGELY attack a nesting Carolina Chickadee! Not only did they destroy the nest in the process, but the chickadee was mortally wounded in the process and later died in a local rehabber's care.

Now, I don't like HOSP anymore than the next bluebirder, but let's all be very careful how we "bill" this video and the behavior exhibited within. The vast majority of species (i.e. unfortunately, including ourselves!) exhibit some form and level of this type of behavior. It is not pretty, but it is a very real fact of our natural world!

Well ... in preparation for the much-anticipated, upcoming State Fair of Texas, I am off to spend the day working in our Wildscape demonstration garden at Fair Park! Have a great day!

Take care,
David
North Central Texas

Good morning all,

I don't think therebwill ever be an easy solution to House Sparrow control any more than there will be peace in the middle east, but the beautiful thing about the evolution of species in a natural ecosystem is that populations evolve to fill niches. Birds that lay the right clutch size and build a nest away from predators and protected from bad weather survive to produce enough offspring to carry on the species. Even if a large portion of every generation succumb to predation, disease, and the elements. It's when a species is forced to change due to rapidly changing environmental conditions that species crash and sometimes become extinct. For many species that change is habitat destruction or fragmentation. Turtles were designed so well that they didn't need to change much for 200 million years, but in the last 150 years they've had to deal with automobiles, wetlands being drained, and us building homes on the beaches where they lay their eggs.

In the case of Bluebirds, it seems to me that the two greatest threats are habitat destruction and the introduction of an exotic species that they did not evolve to deal with. With all the efforts of Bluebirders, we have overcome much of the damage we did by cutting down the old or dead trees they found cavities to nest in, and even provided nesting cavities for them in open areas where none would naturally exist.

I don't hate House Sparrows or European Starlings, but I have less patience for them doing what "comes naturally" because they aren't "natural" here. I don't have enough nest boxes to be a large enough statistical sample to be meaningful, but I still think I've learned a little by observation.

In my experience, House Sparrow aggression is a bigger threat early in the nesting season. Since the first of three nesting cycles here in northern Virginia, House Sparrows have left my BB nest boxes alone.
They also seem to prefer nest boxes out in the open over ones placed in the shade of a tree. The only boxes I've seen them check out lately are out in the mddle of a yard or field, which makes them easier to pick off or see the orange when my Van Ert traps are closed.

Rob Barron

I belive it is wren.
Phil Berry

.... Apparently some of us haven't had the experience of opening a box and finding 5 dead babies and a HOSP nest built right over their bodies. It doesn't take too many of these to wake up.
Phil Berry

From: lviolett [mailto:lviolett"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: video of HOSP attack/Bluebird Escape

Yes, the videos (wren & sparrow) are interesting to study.

The Bluebird in the video may have been able to escape the House Sparrow without injury because of the oval "Peterson" hole. It will be interesting down the road to compare attacks in boxes with round holes, multiple holes and slots.

The video puts to rest the debate on whether Bluebirds will try to escape from a House Sparrow attack and illustrates why I add a 2nd (escape) hole to boxes. Those who have been on the List for several years may recall that Keith Kridler said an extra hole might have an advantage of providing extra light inside the box but that Bluebirds wouldn't use it as an escape from House Sparrows because Bluebirds would fight to the death. The video proves that Bluebirds will try to escape.

Many thanks to Tony Carita for providing the video and to Bet for making it available on her web site.

Linda Violett
Yorba Linda, Calif.

From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: video of HOSP attack/Bluebird Escape

I do remember Keith saying that in his experience, some of his bluebirds stay to fight the House Sparrow instead of fleeing. So, to say that they will all flee, is just a guess. Just because you saw one video that shows "may have been able to escape" does not mean it always happens that way and that it is the way to go.

Can you imagine people with hundreds of boxes that have to stop up vent holes in the winter that would have extra work to do? Linda may not close her vent holes, but I do every single one of mine for the winter.

A second hole provided for escape is not what I question about the box. There is the impression that is all you need to control House Sparrows and on Linda's site, she should give information that other means are needed also (maybe in bold letters). She gives her impression on there of what I say about it and I think it is not a complete thought of what I just stated. (again, which is, other means of HOSP control is needed too.)

I believe in aggressive HOSP control and think that is the very first thing a person should do and if not, they should consider clipping their wings. I do not believe in relocation. I think Bet, Paula, Phil and Kenny's posts tell us the results of control on a trail and it is not with two-hole mansions.

Evelyn

From: lviolett [mailto:lviolett"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: video of HOSP attack/Bluebird Escape

The concept of two House Sparrows duking it out in a nestbox is intriguing. However, I doubt that occurs based on my observations. Even in areas with multiple pairs of House Sparrows trying to take a box, not once have I found a dead or injured House Sparrow in a nestbox with telltale signs of a House Sparrow attack.

Has anyone found a House Sparrow killed in a box with telltale signs of it being by another House Sparrow? Has any found bloodied House Sparrow nestlings buried under a new House Sparrow nest?

Linda Violett
Yorba Linda, Calif.

Hi Linda,
Good questions. I've never seen what you asked happen in a nest box, but would be happy to report that I did. I have seen House Sparrows kill eachother in a trap, but it was a 8ft X 8Ft X 8ft walk in Cowbird trap, so they were hardly crowded.
Rob Barron

I too have had HOSP kill other HOSP in a ground trap. Also had a male kill my female decoy (that I
had for months) when I made the mistake of introducing it into my holding bird cage. The heads were
pecked. The icky photo of a HOSP attack here http://www.sialis.org/hosp.htm#recognize is that
female decoy that was killed by the male HOSP.

I have always wondered whether HOSP attack each other in the wild, or if they attack each others'
eggs/nestlings. As they are communal nesters, I was thinking maybe not. But if there is intense
pressure for a nest site, I would think it could happen (just like it does with bluebirds.) Also
could be more likely in a confined space like a box.

Since I never let HOSP nest, I've not found destroyed eggs/nestlings. And now I have almost no HOSP
around, so need to rely on info from others.

It is really hard to ID the second bird in the video clip, but it sure looks to me like it is a HOSP
based on the coloring, size and tail shape. No idea whether it's a male or a female. There seems
to be a little bit of a white edge on the end of the tail feathers of the bird on the bottom.

Nestbox cams are an amazing way to get more information about habits and activities that we never
had "access" to before!

Bet from CT

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: video of HOSP attack/Bluebird Escape

It does look to me in the video like it is two HOSP duking it out inside the box– with one appearing to be the main aggressor. Tony did say that HOSP had been breaking bluebird eggs in this box earlier. I didn’t think the bird on the bottom was a House Wren, as the tail is too long, and they are both about the same size.

My “take home messages” from this video at http://www.sialis.org/hospattackvid.htm were that:
- HOSP are obviously pretty aggressive. A HOSPs beak and grasp (combo of beak and feet) are clearly strong.
- if a bird is trapped in a box with an aggressive HOSP, they can suffer a lot of damage and may have real difficulty escaping.
- If that hole had been smaller, I wonder if the bird on the bottom would have been able to get away.

I have not used a two-hole box yet in my HOSP control efforts only because I don’t have any two-holers yet. I also don’t have hardly any HOSP left in my area after four years of trapping and employing every passive and active control I know of. Out of 65 boxes, I only had one nesting attempt this year (compared to attempts in almost every box four years ago.)

Yes, there have been reports of bluebirds attacking other species of birds, and also other bluebirds (see the Bluebird Battle video at http://www.sialis.org/picture070306.htm). However, since bluebird numbers are lower, by nature they do not tend to be as aggressive as HOSP, and bluebirds do not have the kind of beak that HOSP have, I’d say the threat is orders of magnitude less.

Bet from CT

PS I uploaded the video in a different format as someone said it was running kind of choppily.

Yes! I did witness Robin eggs and babies destroyed and Bluebird eggs destroyed on the same day back when we lived in TN. During that time I had no knowledge about HOSP or any other bird for that matter.

How I got started,
I sent away for a free booklet named "Homes for Birds", Conservation Bulletin 14. Revised 1979. US Department of the interior fish and wildlife services. Not until we moved from MA to TN in 1991 did I build a house using this "booklet". I had a flock of HOSP swarming that box. My thoughts were "they need another house". I put up a 2nd nestbox in our yard. BB's took the box and laid 4 eggs. Again I didn't know a thing about birds. We also had a tree that grew up past our bedroom window with a robins nest with 3 babies in it. Then all in the same day I found all the BB eggs on the ground and 3 dead robin babies on the ground under the tree. That's when I did some research to find out what was going on. I found information about the HOSP and what they do to our native birds. I also found information on how to make a trap house and what to do when you catch a HOSP. I couldn't believe I was helping the HOSP's. I built a Peterson box and put it in the front of our house. For a while I had to chase the HOSP out until I trap them in the trap house out back. I would monitor the box out front via the camera I setup in the box. The camera was connected to my PC. When I saw a bird go into the box I would start recording it using my computer software. That's how I got the video. Soon after I caught enough HOSP I got a Chickadee family in the Peterson house. After the Chickadees left the BB's took the box. So far here in FL I have yet to see a HOSP in my yard.
Tony C.

For those of you on the List using slot boxes:
Are Bluebird adults able to escape from slots during a House Sparrow attack?

Linda Violett

Rob,
I am still removein hOSP eggs on my trail well over 500 so far. In my
experience they never give up.
Phil Berry

From: lviolett [mailto:lviolett"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: video of HOSP attack/Bluebird Escape

Yes, the videos (wren & sparrow) are interesting to study.

The Bluebird in the video may have been able to escape the House Sparrow without injury because of the oval "Peterson" hole. It will be interesting down the road to compare attacks in boxes with round holes, multiple holes and slots.

The video puts to rest the debate on whether Bluebirds will try to escape from a House Sparrow attack and illustrates why I add a 2nd (escape) hole to boxes. Those who have been on the List for several years may recall that Keith Kridler said an extra hole might have an advantage of providing extra light inside the box but that Bluebirds wouldn't use it as an escape from House Sparrows because Bluebirds would fight to the death. The video proves that Bluebirds will try to escape.

Many thanks to Tony Carita for providing the video and to Bet for making it available on her web site.

Linda Violett, Yorba Linda, Calif.

From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: video of HOSP attack Bluebird Escape

I’m not sure I could say that with complete confidence for a couple of reasons

1. I can’t tell for sure what species the loser bird is. I THINK they are both House Sparrows, but just can’t get a clear enough picture even after looking at it over 40 times. They both look the same size, and tails look the same length. There is a point between 5-6 seconds on the clip where the back of the loser bird is visible, and it looks HOSPey to me. At 16-18 seconds (where they are struggling at the exit), however, the bottom birds’ tail looks weird (white edging?) and the underparts look lighter than the HOSP on top.
2. I don’t think there is a nest in the box. It’s possible that a bluebird defending eggs/nestlings might react differently to an attack.

I DEFINITELY agree the larger oval hole enabled the bottom bird’s escape from the beak/leg clutches.

We DO know that bluebirds ARE found pecked to death inside nestboxes and clearly did NOT escape an attack.

If Linda has not found a dead adult bluebird (attacked) in a two-holed nestbox in areas where HOSP are common, I think that tells us more.

BTW, someone asked why I didn’t stop the House Wren attack that is captured on this video clip: http://www.sialis.org/howrattack.htm Two reasons: 1. It was a House Wren attacking House Wren eggs. 2. The whole thing happened in less than one minute!

Bet from CT

From: lviolett [mailto:lviolett"at"earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: video of HOSP attack Bluebird Escape

Bet, it would be great if the person (Tony Carita) who took the video jumped in here to add information to the discussion. What is the timeframe that Bluebird eggs were destroyed by HOSP prior to the video, etc.? The video is quick and the clarity is not optimum. My visual perception of the escaping bird in the video is that of a Bluebird. It has a graceful curve inward toward the middle of the tail which then fans outward toward the tips and appears longer than that of a House Sparrow (seen best just prior to it escaping through the hole (not touching the box sides).

But, most important, is the fact that there have been no reports or evidence of HOSP battling each other in nestboxes.

* There have been no injured or dead HOSP killed by HOSP in any of my trail boxes.
* I don't recall any reports on Bluebird-L over the years that any HOSP has been killed by another HOSP in nestboxes (traps are different from nestboxes and not part of this discussion).
* I don't recall any reports that any HOSP nests/chicks have been destroyed by other HOSP
* Out of the hundreds of members currently on Bluebird-L, no one has stepped forward to confirm an injury or death of a HOSP by another HOSP in a NESTBOX after the video was made available.

We all know that HOSP/Bluebird battles are a common everyday event during nesting season in HOSP infested areas. And we know that this particular nestbox has a recent history of HOSP/Bluebird battles where Bluebird eggs were destroyed by HOSP. Since I've never heard of a HOSP/HOSP battle inside a nestbox . . . I'm wondering where that HOSPvsHOSP assumption originated in conjunction with this video?

Again, does anyone have any information or evidence that House Sparrows have EVER trapped/killed/injured each other in nestboxes?

Linda Violett
Yorba Linda, Calif.

PS: There HAVE been instances of adult Bluebirds trapped/killed in 2-holed boxes caused by HOSP but it is very, very rare (can count the total deaths on one hand over a ten-year period).

From: Tony & Carol [mailto:caritaa"at"bellsouth.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: video of HOSP attack Bluebird Escape

I have been following along here.
I did a properties on the video. Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:04:32 AM. Thinking back, during the time I put the Peterson house up in the front yard, bluebirds were landing on the box along with HOSP and chickadees.
I made the trap house because there were so many sparrow in the area. I too when looking at the video and seeing the tail of the bird being attacked want to say it was a BB. I can't say for sure but back then I remeber being extremely upset because of the dead birds and egg's I found earlier. I admit my knowledge about any bird was lacking back in those days. All I wanted to do is give the birds a place to raise their young and enjoy watching all the birds. After I found the damage I learned about House Sparrows. I went into defensive mode, I read more on the subject to learn what to do. I built a trap house and installed a camera in the Peterson box to monitor it. Bluebirds, Chickadees as well as HOSP were going in and out of the Peterson box soon after I put it up. Not until I caught a dozen HOSP did that house get taken by the Chickadees.
Tony C

I do remember Keith saying that in his experience, some of his bluebirds stay to fight the House Sparrow instead of fleeing. So, to say that they will all flee, is just a guess. Just because you saw one video that shows "may have been able to escape" does not mean it always happens that way and that it is the way to go.

Can you imagine people with hundreds of boxes that have to stop up vent holes in the winter that would have extra work to do? Linda may not close her vent holes, but I do every single one of mine for the winter.

A second hole provided for escape is not what I question about the box. There is the impression that is all you need to control House Sparrows and on Linda's site, she should give information that other means are needed also (maybe in bold letters). She gives her impression on there of what I say about it and I think it is not a complete thought of what I just stated. (again, which is, other means of HOSP control is needed too.)

I believe in aggressive HOSP control and think that is the very first thing a person should do and if not, they should consider clipping their wings. I do not believe in relocation. I think Bet, Paula, Phil and Kenny's posts tell us the results of control on a trail and it is not with two-hole mansions.

Evelyn
www.labayoubluebirdsociety.org

Evelyn Cooper (President of Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society) says the disadvantage of the 2-holers is that baby birds cannot fly out of the second (escape) hole during an attack and a statement to that effect should be made each time 2-holers are mentioned.
Evelyn prefers to use standard 1-holed boxes where babies AND adults are at risk during a nestbox attack.

This is what Linda says I say on her website. I think in the last sentence it should say that I use the standard 1-hole boxes where an inbox trap can be used along with aggressive control, which is very successful. (Linda does not promote aggressive control, so my whole story does not get told)
I have written Linda privately to this effect. I am not happy about this and I want you to know it comes up on the search engines. It does not really portray the whole story.
Linda, I request that you change this or take it off.
Evelyn

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
When the Gilwood nestbox first came out I made 6 of them and tested them in House Sparrow areas and actually placed one between a couple of two holed nestboxes. Two years ago I drove up to one of the Gilwood boxes that had fledged Eastern Bluebirds and I had cleaned the box the week before and hanging half out of the box was a freshly killed Male House Sparrow. It was half in and half out of the box and showed typical de-nuding of the head and the skull was open and looked like so many other pictures you see of dead bluebirds. I went out this weekend to get the box since I had saved it in my shop but all that is left now is a skeleton in an old nest. I never could tell if this was a bluebird nest or a sparrow nest and with the big entrance hole in such a shallow nestbox it might have been starlings that killed this sparrow or other sparrows or maybe even a bluebird:-))

I thought I had pictures of this when it was freshly killed but have not found the right disk, maybe I did not take photo's at the time of the attack. I know I brought the nestbox and corpse home to take some. I do have a good opportunity to show neck and wing bones!

I have found dead sparrows in other boxes but it is hard to guess what or who killed them. Flying squirrels can create the same looking damage as House Sparrows can.KK

I manage three trails: a 150-box dairy farm trail; a 50-box piney woods trail and a 10-box public park trail. The only one that I even hear a sparrow is the farm trail.

The farm trail (where there are more sparrows than bluebirds), I removed no sparrows eggs this year. Due to weekly nest checks, it would impossible for a sparrow to manage to build a nest and lay its eggs without my intervention. Sometimes, I come across a partial sparrow nest that may pass for a bluebird nest and the sparrows are smart enough to hide from me as I make my most predictable rounds. In that case, I will trap the female the following week but still before laying commences. I don't like trapping females and assign an approximate value of 10 times more for a male than a female. Eliminating a male clears an area for two to four weeks whereas eliminating a female clears the box for just two to four days. Some of my sparrows have learned that a Van Ert is present; some have learned to associate my presence with danger. I have actually allowed a few to escape my grasp when removing from the trap. Regardless, these sparrows never come back to that area!

Here are my numbers: from 2/17 until last week, I have set my Van Ert traps
48 times. I trapped 28 sparrows of which about half were males.
Interestingly, 32 of those trapping attempts were done on the first nesting cycle; 14 during the second; and only 2 during the third cycle (which is almost over down here). That's not a bad return on investment for a two-year trail that had 91 bluebird nesting attempts (nest with eggs) this year. Never in these two years have I experienced a sparrow interfering with a bluebird. I repeat: never. This 500-acre farm is "saturated with boxes that I suspect make it too easy for a bluebird to "move over" to the next box if any interference is occurring. When I hear of anyone complaining about such interference, I immediately suspect that less-than weekly nestchecks are being conducted and/or less than effective or aggressive trapping is occurring. I know birds behave a little differently in different areas but, not that much!

In other words, I don't know what all the fuss is about! If anyone should be "boohooing" about sparrows, it should be this poor dairy farmer down in Louisiana "stupid-enough" to try to bluebird in sparrow heaven! But, with efficient, effective use of insert traps and weekly nestchecks, sparrows are the least of my worries. Next subject... :-)

Kenny Kleinpeter
Baton Rouge, LA

Keith, sounds a lot like the damage shown in a (very graphic) photo by M. Pesce here:
http://www.sialis.org/hospattacks.htm (Tree Swallow killed by HOSP.) I know it's gruesome to talk
about these attacks, but I think it's important to be able to identify what went wrong in order to
know what preventive steps to take in the future.

Do starlings actually kill adult birds? I thought they mostly attacked eggs and nestlings (with beak
jabs). I have a ton of starlings around here, but have never had a problem in a bluebird nestbox
(that I know of! They tried multiple times to build in a Great-crested flycatcher box I have on my
chimney, but my (INDOOR) cat staring out the window at them was a sufficient deterrent.)

I thought flying squirrels attacks on adults would likely show bites on the head (vs. peck marks and
removal of feathers) and also generally eat breast meat?

Bet from CT

Linda,

I have never seen evidence of a HOSP injuring another nestling or adult of its species in a nestbox. I did conduct an interesting experiment (as I am prone to do) this spring with a male HOSP that had started a nest in one of my boxes. He was trap shy, so I placed a HOSP egg from a different box in "his" nest to entice him in there with the trap set. He pierced that egg and dropped it at the base of his box without setting off the trap - talented little guy. This surprised me, but I guess it shouldn't have as he had not attracted a mate yet. He knew that could not be his egg, I guess.

Paula Z
Powell (Central) Ohio

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