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Problems with herbicides on a bluebird trailIn addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: Predators and Problems On The Bluebird Trail Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:28:47 -0800 (PST) Hi everyone. Yesterday I asked someone at the Cornell Lab some questions about using Pre-emergent on the lawn (for crabgrass control) as to whether any chemicals in it would be harmful to any birds, especially any birds getting their food off lawns. They sent me a website that has much info on the subject including telephone #'s at the bottom...of various people or organizations that will answer these kinds of questions. I'm enclosing this site below for any interested people. I may call a couple of these & also a company or 2 that make pre-emergents, but if anyone has 1st hand knowledge and experience of this (I mean facts, not speculation), please let me know. Thanks very much. Horace in NC. Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:27:36 -0500 Here is a general Fact Sheet compiled by the Smithsonian Migratory Bird Center. At the bottom of the sheet are several organizations which may better be able to answer your specific questions. http://web2.si.edu/smbc/fxshts/fxsht8.htm Thank you for contacting the Cornell Lab of Ornithology and for your interest in birds. We're looking forward to seeing everyone's counts during the 3rd Great Backyard Bird Count! Marie Eckhardt The Cornell Lab of Ornithology is a membership institute whose mission is to interpret and conserve the earth's biological diversity through research, education, and citizen science focused on birds. Joanne Cox - Monroe, GA (45 miles east of Atlanta) 74* today I have a question about spraying Round Up on weeds and unwanted grass in a yard. Is it dangerous to spray such things on your lawn during the nesting season? My friend says it's an HERBicide and not a PESTicide, so it's okay. What do y'all think?
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:55:30 -0500 Dear Joanne, I'm sure the label probably gives warnings about having pets coming in contact with the herbicide. It is poison. The manufacturer didn't put these warnings on the package because they are so concerned for our safety or to make it easier to sell them. They were required by law, and, I do not believe the warnings would be given had there been no such laws. Therefore, I wouldn't pay too much attention to claims made by the manufacturers about the safety of the product if they are not on the label. And, the impact on the birds is worse than on house pets that should be kept indoors for a certain period of time because unlike dogs and cats, many days after application the birds actually eat insects that were covered with the herbicide. We seem so dependent on chemicals for just about everything we do. But, there really is a choice. They are not necessary in most cases. I'm sure many who think chemicals and poisons are great problem solvers will say they are OK, especially after a few days, but I wouldn't use them to beautify a yard I was attracting birds to. Gary Springer ...
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:40:01 EST Dear BluebirdNut (a/k/a Joanne) I want to second Gary's comments regarding herbicides and pesticides. Both are poisons and killers. They do indeed have long time effects on the health of your soil let alone conscience life. Their indiscriminate killing effect wipes out good and bad bacterial action in your soil, bacterial life that is necessary for a healthy garden. Jerry Houser Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:56:07 -0500 I was told today that putting Weed and Feed on your lawn was a danger to ground feeding birds like cardinals, etc. Any truth to this? Keith? What about spraying fruit trees? If you don't spray here in northeast Oklahoma you can forget the fruit. Thanks.
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:20:41 -0500 Keith Kridler heading for 81* and sunny skies in Northeast Texas today Worked at an egg farm yesterday that produces eggs for your table. Watched the candling machine reject an egg that had a shell with about 1/8" white between another complete egg. In other words there was an incomplete egg within another egg. This was not any surprise to the person running the machine. I broke it open and there were two complete hard shells. There are 890,000 chickens at this farm in 9 houses. Eggs range in size from too large to fit through the grading machines to those the size of pigeon eggs with no yolk. A good laying hen lays every 27 hours or about 5 eggs per week. weed & feed: Fread is our resident expert on this topic! But Herbicides in these are generally pre emergent and in the south two applications are needed to be effective as the "barrier" to seeds sprouting is only about 6 weeks. Anything that disturbs the soil (tilling, armadillos, even weeding) breaks this barrier allowing weeds to sprout. This DOES NOT kill weed seeds! Only keeps them from sprouting for 6 weeks! At a monastery in Europe that had the rock floor laid down over 100 years ago during a recent excavation the soil was removed and 21 species of "weeds" were grown from these old seeds that had been covered up! The new blends of fertilizer and INSECTICIDES are very dangerous to ground feeding birds. Usually diazanon or dursban used for fleas, ticks ETC. are used. Fruit trees should be sprayed so that there is no danger even to honey bees or at least minimize the danger to them. Most sprays for fruit trees are actually fungicides. We really don't know what effects most of these chemicals will have on long term exposure. Agent Orange the week killer in Viet Nam linked to problems was a compound called 2-4-5-T a sister to broadleaf weed killer 2-4-D. 2-4-5-T was available over the counter during the 60's and 70's and the weed killer of choice for road crews and power line use. Tiny drops of any spray will be absorbed into and through the shells of bird eggs. Birds swimming through oil or gasoline or walking in grass recently sprayed with chemicals carry these to their nests and bring the eggs into contact. How do you think people learned to dip eggs in oil to prevent their hatching. Scientists working with oil/chemical spills noted this, now we use it for bird control. KK Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:37:51 EDT Our county extension agent suggest not using Weed & Feed at all because it can kill shrubs and trees. Why treat the whole lawn when only a few spots have a single weed problem? I think that most lawn service are stupid about what they are really doing to the environment. I will check out the information sheet and post it to the site. Bob Bob Wilson Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:05:04 -0500 Back in about 1956 or so, I worked for an electric utility company company. I worked with a right-of-way crew. We used 2-4-5-T with 2-4-D. We mixed a five gallon can with a 250 gallon water tank. (50:1?) Of course, I did not know or was I warned that this stuff was very dangerous. And I later learned it was the same as agent orange. I got the concentrate on my clothes, breathed the diluted mist. We sprayed foliage in the early morning, and by noon, wilt had set in. It did the job it was concocted to do.We used it early AM because there was no wind. Tomato was the most susceptible to death or deformity from the stuff, and seems like it was effected 1/4 miles away! If you went to your garden in the evening, it had better be after a bath and a change of clothes. There were three of us using it. Two are still alive. A fellow about 12 years older than me and myself, 62. The other was my schoolmate. He died with a form of leukemia about 15 years ago. Boy, oh boy, what we did not know back then! Now we are faced with a scourge of fire ants. I dread the day I look into a box and find hatchlings covered with them. They are taking my small place. My ground was disturbed in a lot of places a few years ago, and they love this. You can stand at one hill and see several more. I have listened to and tried several of the silly things suggested by well meaning folks, such as grits. The only things I have found that will stop a colony dead in its tracks are Lorsban, Orthene 75S, and Amdro. I have used them, but find Lorsban is most efficient, and may be the safest, sprayed as a liquid directly on the hill. I never use it in any way except direct spot application, right on the hill. A sod farm close by uses Lorsban to control the fire ants. He also only uses spot application. He has to be certified by USDA fire ant free. I have several nest boxes around the farm. Most have thriving nests in them. I don't know about long range effects. Problems, problems. Fire ants, Kudzu, Killer bees, HOSP, EUST, what next? Try European Wasps! Please, I don't need holy lectures on insecticides, herbicides, etc. As per above, I already know. I am just doing my periodic frustrated venting, I guess! Bill Darnell, Savannah, TN Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:09:59 -0600 Tina-Calif stated, "What kills broad leafed plants is agent orange - different label same chemical." Dear Tina et al, As a Vietnam War Veteran exposed directly to "Agent Orange", I feel I can offer you and others some quality information concerning this lethal chemical brew. The name AGENT ORANGE originated from the orange colored stripe that was applied to containers which contained herbicides. That name has become synonymous for, and collective of, virtually all forms of herbicides used during the Vietnam War. There were also herbicides known as Agent Blue that bore a purple stripe on it's containers; Agent Red that bore a pink stripe on it's containers; Agent White that bore a green stripe on it's containers; Silvex and 2,4,5-T which is still in current inventory! The name "Agent Orange" is also the identifying term applied to the harmful effects found in humans which were derived from contact with the herbicides used in Vietnam. Please read that statement again. It is my opinion that is the reason companies who produced those chemicals, some which are commonly used today across this continent, have blocked all attempts for recognition of medical problems resulting from contact with those same chemicals used in Vietnam. The descriptive term "Agent Orange Disease" is all an error. The medical conditions which resulted from exposure to those chemical defoliants are identical to the same medical conditions resulting from exposure to an herbicide containing Dioxin today. "Agent Orange" was one of several defoliants (herbicides) containing trace amounts of a toxic contaminant, TCDD or Dioxin. Defoliants were used during the Vietnam War to kill vast areas of jungle growth. The real, Agent Orange, was a 1:1 mixture of the n-butyl esters of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T). A by-product contaminant of the manufacturing process for 2,4,5-T, used in all the agents during the Vietnam War, is 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin (TCDD). TCDD is commonly referred to as dioxin. In the early years of W.W.II, a grant was provided by the National Research Council to develop a chemical which would destroy rice crops in Japan (Japan was our enemy and rice was the major food crop of the Japanese). Two chemicals were designed and developed to do exactly that: the first was 2,4-D and the second was 2,4,5-T. These are the same defoliants (herbicides) that were used in Vietnam and nick-named "Agent Orange". A discussion between then President Roosevelt and White House Chief of Staff, Admiral William D. Leahy, determined that these heinous chemicals should not be used! Agent Orange was never used during W.W.II. TCDD in reality, is a family of dioxins that contain four (4) chlorine atoms each. Therefore, TCDD is classified as a chlorinated organic chemical. TCDD (dioxin) is, perhaps, the most detrimental and damaging chemical ever produced. It's effects will be with us for generations. Many who read this, if checked, would show traceable dioxin within our fatty tissues so pervasive is this chemical! The length of time required for half a quantity of drug, or other substance residing in a living organism to be metabolized, or eliminated by normal biological processes is called its biological half-life. The half-life of dioxin is 8.7 years in humans. Putting this in proper perspective: Once exposed to dioxin, 8.7 years from the date of initial exposure, your body will still contain one half of the amount in your fatty tissues and organs. In 17.4 years, your body should show 1/4th the amount of dioxin after initial exposure in your fatty tissues and organs. Now, you may understand how horrific this chemical is! It is estimated that over 18 million gallons of herbicides were deployed in aerial sprays over Vietnam. A C-123 (Provider) could dump 11,000 lbs. of Agent Orange over 300 acres in four minutes. Vietnam Veterans and their families filed a class action suit against seven chemical companies (Dow Chemical, Monsanto, Uniroyal, Hercules, Diamond Shamrock, Thompson Chemical, and T.H. Agriculture). It was settled out of court in May 1984 for victims and families of those exposed to herbicides for $180,000,000 (the lawyers got a staggering 100 million dollars). The amount given to qualifying families was a pittance. This brief, but very poignant history of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T is given to state that you are both correct and incorrect in stating that "What kills broad leafed plants is Agent Orange - different label same chemical." Chlorinated herbicides are still available but are under extremely strict Federal usage laws. In 1979 the EPA stopped most useage of 2,4-D herbicide. The major use of Penta (pentachlorophenol) is as a wood preservative. It is used commercially in the preservation of telephone poles, fence posts, and board lumber used in contact with the ground. It is also available for household use as a formulated product which is painted on wood to preserve it. The treating of telephone poles with pentachlorophenol is done in large vessels under pressure to aid the penetration of the wood. It is common for workers to come in contact with the treating solutions and woods, causing visible evidence of toxification (chloracne). This may be the most common vector for human industrial exposure to dioxin. It is now forbidden to use penta (pentachlorophenol) treated wood as the construction material for animal feed storage bins. This has, in the past, been a source for the exposure of cattle to dioxins by transfer of dioxins in treated wood to the feed and hence humans through the consumption of meat, milk, and dairy products from those exposed animals! If you live in cattle country, note feed bins are still constructed of this material and regularly used today. Pentachlorophenol has also been used as a bactericide in many products. These have included paint, cosmetics, inks, fabric dyes, and other substances used in the home. This may be (may have been?) the most common route for exposure of the general population to above background levels of dioxins. Cow hides have been preserved using penta (pentaachlorophenol) in South America. Contaminated gelatin extracted from those hides was imported into the United States and used to make capsules to hold medication! This caused a recall of those medications and further restrictions on the sources of gelatin for capsule use. In essence, you are very much correct in that extreme protection should be used when spraying herbicides of any form at any time. You are incorrect in that these herbicides contain Agent Orange. Fread J. Loane, Horticulturist Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:09:20 EST I have seemed to have lost the post but someone wanted to use herbicides etc because he was losing the battle. I wanted to suggest that before he resort to that that he try to restore the health to the little patch of land first, watering it, weeding it with a knife, fertilizing it, putting down compost, aerating it, putting seeds down. Someone shows up every couple of months with a machine that aerates the soil and then puts down fertilizer. He says weeds don't like ground that is aerated. I am amazed at how easy the lawn is to maintain. I have cross-examined him on what is in the fertilizer and he swears it doesn't have anything but food for the grass. Perhaps if you do these steps first, you won't have to resort to herbicides - like with one's body, the first thing to do it to build up the health of the body. Tina From: Gallusluna"at"aol.com Hello, I am new to bluebirds and to this list. What an informative group! Question, I am looking for information regarding herbicides
and there effect on birds? Do birds move on? Become ill? I am working on creating a trail located on a site where they,
to my dismay, just sprayed a great deal of herbicide right where
the birds feed. The site is controlled by a public entity. The
boxes are up, but the birds are now missing! In fact, I haven't
seen the resident pair since they sprayed 2 weeks ago. This
creates concern as I see them every time I go to the site. They
always say hello. This is my first pair, my first sighting,
and the ones that gently helped me become hooked. I miss them.
Today I walked the site, and I can still smell the strong chemical. It gave me a headache, what does it do to the birds? No BB. I have a call in to find out what herbicides they used. They also sprayed the native plants and wildflowers they spent a great deal of $ to plant just a few years ago! I have yet to find Lit. on the topic in any of my BB books? Thank you, Nancy, Northern California. From: "ixtabai" ixtabai"at"earthlink.net (I'm a brand new member of this listserv, so please excuse me if this question is a rehash of an already discussed topic.) Yesterday, I picked up a bluebird pamphlet from my local bird store. A statement in that pamphlet says... "Contact with herbicides (such as Roundup) can kill bluebirds very quickly." I live in a new subdivision in Virginia & would like to see us ban the use Roundup here by the landscaper & the property owners, but need more data to present to them. Does anyone here have more information which expands upon the statement above? Thanks! We have a flock of bluebirds that have stayed around our property all winter & are now investigating the 3 nesting boxes we put up several months ago. We have a little over an acre in the woods, about 10 feet outside the town limits, which I've been told is an unusual area for bluebirds to live. I certainly don't want anyone to do anything that might harm the bluebirds here! Thanks for your help! Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:17:36 -0500 Hi Sandy, Thanks for your post. The pesticide issue is one that has been discussed before, but it is also very important. I don't know what handout you received, but it is worth stressing that comments like "Contact with herbicides (such as Roundup) can kill bluebirds very quickly" can be misleading and possibly taken out of context. Experiments where birds are subjected to these types of toxins usually end with the birds dying after some fatal dose. However, it is hard to prove in nature whether a bird dies from pesticide poisoning without some type of tissue analysis, usually of the liver. The Birdhouse Network (TBN) is currently collecting data on pesticides and birds and we hope to be able to examine whether pesticide exposure has an effect on breeding birds, i.e., are clutch size, nestlings, fledging, and unhatched egg numbers relatively the same within species of birds in nearby locations even though some are exposed to pesticides and others not? Last year was the first year TBN collected this data and we are currently analyzing the data, so as of yet, we do not have anything definitive that you could take to your subdivision, accept that the jury is still out. It may very well take years worth of data collection before we can answer the above question. If you are not a member of TBN, please consider joining and
entering your nest box observations so we may continue to study
these kinds of important environmental factors. In the April
issue of Birdscope, (included with TBN participation) I summarize
some of the preliminary findings from last years pesticide data. Tina Phillips (607)254-2482 At 08:37 AM 3/26/2002 -0500, you wrote: ... Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:07:05 -0600 Hi Sandy, you wrote: IMHO, Roundup is scary stuff. Monsanto was actually fined a few years ago by the NY State AttGen's office for dishonest and misleading labeling and advertising. Glyphosate is a pesticide (see http://infoventures.com/e-hlth/pestcide/glyphos.html ). Roundup is glyphosate mixed with 'inert ingredients' and studies have shown it to be toxic to birds and animals. Studies of farmers who use it show increases in miscarriages, lowered sperm counts and lymphoma. It's also very persistent in soil. See: http://www.organicgardening.com/watchdog/pesticides_roundup.html http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Roundup-Glyphosate-Factsheet-Cox.htm http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/3588/roundup.html http://www.holisticmed.com/ge/roundup.html As for the WHY behind Roundup, read about Monsanto's grand plan: http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/JF97/brokaw.html Want to avoid Monsanto's and Roundup-treated foods? See: http://www.ethicalinvesting.com/monsanto/ (eek! Aspartame!) Be aware: some "pro" writeups were funded by the USDA/Extension Service and the National Agricultural Pesticide Impact Assessment Program (big proponents of Roundup). One website (Spectrum Labs) even has a disclaimer linked from its glyphosate review admitting that the fact sheet is actually "a compilation of information", the sources "could not be validate" and assumes no liability for its accuracy! There is also a *huge* thread on Roundup currently in rec.gardens (on Usenet). For more info, do a google.com search and enter "glyphosate toxicity". "Better living through chemistry." :^b ---- Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:09:22 -0600 http://greenpeaceusa.org/media/factsheets/glyphosate.htm From: "Doug Rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com I believe the detailed label on Round-up recognizes the potential injury to birds. I have no doubt that bluebirds are at risk because their source of nesting material is the target of Round-up spraying. We are only beginning to recognize all of the potential adverse environmental impacts of Round-up. Unfortunately we will study it for years before it goes the way of DDT, dursban, and others. Doug ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana"
yumyumkatts"at"voyager.net " Oops. I hadn't given this much thought, and have been
spraying thistle in Yes, let the thistle grow. The birds love the seeds. Dottie, Hickory Hollow Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:27:34 EDT Anyway...any better ideas? Well... g This won't work for all, but last year I reported the good luck I had in getting rid of poison ivy. I taught the horses to urinate in a bucket, the contents then being emptied over the poison ivy! Rhonda Watts From: "Michael Wheatley" sialia"at"cyberdude.com Sandy: I use RoundUp in small patches around the pole(s) where I need to mow regularly. I only need to apply a couple times a year and feel that any (unseen) detriment is better that the weekly contact from the mower against the steel post. The winds of Ohio blew down my utility pole (snapped off) that
I have (had) mounted my Kestrel box. Sadly the pair had begun
the season and it is interesting to see them sit on the wires
and stare down at the pieces. Guess what my first outside project
is when the weather clears. Mike in NW OH From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas Sunny 34*F early this morning. If you want to go organic then chicken litter or other "hot" manures will work. A cat litter box load of manure will spot kill a bush or woody plant! As will doggie doolies. In the south the goldfinches are long gone before the thistles go to seed. KK Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:32:59 -0600 I realize there are people whose opinions I respect that are adamantly opposed to using any pesticides or herbicides, so I may catch some flack on this one... Although I rely chiefly on "natural" methods such
as mowing, weed Roundup is generally considered safe (to everything but the
plants!) once the foliage has dried. I would think that unless
the bluebird were to get an insect from the Roundup-ed area
while the foliage was still wet, that risk would be minimal,
especially if the application was done correctly and over as
small an area as possible. I am far more concerned about the
indiscriminate use of insecticides, especially the ones that
are supposed to kill every bug in your yard, per their advertisement!
They are after all designed to specifically kill the insects
that our bluebirds (and other creatures) rely on for food, so
are far more likely to affect creatures higher up the food chain. Kate Oschwald From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com Kate's views are exactly what my agronomist son explained to me yesterday. Most of my bluebirds are not far from fields that use Roundup and I can tell you that my population has increased three fold and I have not seen any deformed or dead. Evelyn Cooper ... Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:46:37 -0700 The only way I have found to kill thistle is Roundup. I spray
it very close to the plant and ONLY on that specific plant.
I spray while the plants are still SMALL so don't have a giant
3' plant to kill. I'm standing there while it dries and have
never felt that it created a problem. I never put it in a sprayer
and spray everything. I still hoe my weeds (I think I'm the
only person left who Jane Washington emcooper wrote: Kate's views are exactly what my agronomist son explained
to me ... Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:27:45 -0600 I would be careful of not spraying Roundup on anything that could be use as nesting material. Washington wrote: The only way I have found to kill thistle is Roundup. I spray it very ... From: "Fread J" firefrost2"at"hotmail.com TO The List et al: Several members have discussed on Bluebird-L, and asked me about better solutions to weed control around their trails, homes, and gardens.Forgive me for doing this this way, but it will possibly get to the largest audience whom wish to read such material or whom are environmentally inclined. DELETE NOW IF NOT INTERESTED: Spray Weeds With Vinegar? By Don Comis /is/contacts.htm May 15, 2002 Some home gardeners already use vinegar as a herbicide, and some garden stores sell vinegar pesticides. But no one has tested it scientifically until now. Agricultural Research Service http://www.ars.usda.gov/ scientists offer the first scientific evidence that it may be a potent weedkiller that is inexpensive and environmentally safe--perfect for organic farmers. ARS researchers Jay Radhakrishnan, John R. Teasdale and Ben Coffman in Beltsville, Md., tested vinegar on major weeds--common lamb’s-quarters, giant foxtail, velvetleaf, smooth pigweed and Canada thistle--in greenhouse and field studies. They hand-sprayed the weeds with various solutions of vinegar, uniformly coating the leaves. The researchers found that 5- and 10-percent concentrations killed the weeds during their first two weeks of life. Older plants required higher concentrations of vinegar to kill them. At the higher concentrations, vinegar had an 85- to 100-percent kill rate at all growth stages. A bottle of household vinegar is about a 5-percent concentration. Canada thistle, one of the most tenacious weeds in the world, proved the most susceptible; the 5-percent concentration had a 100-percent kill rate of the perennial’s top growth. The 20-percent concentration can do this in about 2 hours. Spot spraying of cornfields with 20 percent vinegar killed 80 to 100 percent of weeds without harming the corn, but the scientists stress the need for more research. If the vinegar were sprayed over an entire field, it would cost about $65 per acre. If applied to local weed infestations only, such as may occur in the crop row after cultivation, it may only cost about $20 to $30. The researchers use only vinegar made from fruits or grains, to conform to organic farming standards. ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture http://www.usda.gov/’s chief scientific research agency. From: "Doug Rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com Highland Village, Texas I buy 20% vinegar for this exact use at my local garden center. Also, Lowes is beginning to carry a line of "organic" or "earth friendly" products, including the high concentration vinegar. (In other regions, they may have to special order it!?) I add an ounce of orange oil (delimonene) to enhance its effectiveness. A product called "BurnOut" is now available which is a vinegar & orange oil combination. (Read the RoundUp brochure as it relates to birds.) If you're interested in more "earth friendly" approaches, you might find the following link of interest: http://www.dirtdoctor.com/article.asp?ID=587 . If you have ant problems (particulary fire ants), there are natural products that completely eradicate the fire ants and do not harm our bird & insect friends. Doug ----- Original Message ----- ... Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:06:47 EDT I buy 20% vinegar for this exact use at my local garden center. What kind of vinegar is this--cider vinegar? (I ask because I put cider vinegar in the horses' feed as a fly repellant--it can be hard to locate in the grocer's, and I've never found it available in bulk, more's the pity. Someone asked about how to increase the potency--just boil it down. And with apologies to those who have heard about my weed killer before--both the horses are trained to pee in a bucket when possible; the resultant potent liquid has taken care of most of the nearby poison ivy, as well as several troublesome thistles. g Rhonda Watts From: "Fread J" firefrost2"at"hotmail.com Concerning the bad links in my post on Vinegar as a weed killer, I apologise. This is the parent site and you can use the "Search" to find this and other interesting articles on the subject: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ Thanks Doug for pointing that out! As Doug and others pointed out, heavier concentrations of vinegars are available from several sources: your grocer; your health food store; local pharmacies etc. Fread J. Loane From: "Doug Rohde" d.rohde"at"attbi.com Susan, I would inquire as to the magic used to achieve "weeds do *not grow in the immediate area of his row plantings". Unless he is using some sort of row cover (plastic, deep mulch, etc), that says herbicide to me. Depending on the particular herbicide issues like drift and persistence/longevity are important (and can affect nearby neighbors who are 'clean'). Some folks don't realize that the labeling of pesticides is sometimes based on mamalian toxicity for greater body mass than our bird friends. Even if not, the labeling is based on the LD50 (lethal dose that kills 50% of the test population). Something that is considered by an applicator to be safe, may not be so for birds. Doug ----- Original Message ----- I've just been made aware of a potentially alarming event. From: "Randy Jones" randyj"at"enter.net Today was a painful day. Three of our four fledglings had been accounted for, active and apparently healthy in our yard, flying to the bird bath, flying to the feeder, chasing their father, fanning their wings and begging for food. The fourth we never saw after fledging. I told about the first of the three dying after being seen clinging to the side of the birdbath. Today we found a second under the bird bath, and the third under the old apple tree which was a favorite haunt of the entire family. I wondered if it could be WNV, but if that were the case, other birds would be affected, and probably the adults, too. Now I suspect poisons. I intend to contact the farmer who is working the field just across the road from our house. I know that the parents have been seen over that way. I know that heavier doses of herbicide were used this year than ever before, judging from the appearance of the fields. I don't know if insecticides have been used. My neighbor, whose yard is part of the bluebirds' territory, told me he has not used insecticides, but that he has spread Scotts # 1 of the four step treatment. Does anyone know if the crabgrass control or fertilizer which is what they claim for # 1 might be the poison which killed the fledglings? It's disheartening, but if we're located where despite the parents best efforts and ours to assist, their little ones are going to be killed every time, I feel like we have to consider discouraging bluebirds from coming here, rather than inviting them. I'd appreciate any knowledgeable input re Scotts # 1 (and the other steps, too, for that matter). Also on the various herbicides and their effects on birds, especially the young. Randy Jones |
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