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Nestbox & Heat (Part 1)In addition to the Messages that have appeared on the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the Audubon Society of Omaha has the following on their web site: Wooden Nestboxes Found Cooler Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:24:29 EST Hello, There have been discussions, in the past, concerning nestbox overheating.... During the Summer months, even here in SW Ontario near the North beach of Lake Erie, the strong Summer sun and high daytime temperatures can raise interior box temperatures to the point where young birds are at risk. I've lost nestlings in the summer for no other apparent reason. I cannot be certain that it was overheating, but the circcumstances were ideal for very high interior nestbox temps. I've designed and assembled several boxes, built using unplaned,
true 1" pine. I've added heat shields to the roof and three
sides, incorporating a The natural cavities typically used by Bluebirds (and others)
were usually found in treetrunks. These natural nest locations
had far more 'mass' I've attached a few photos of my new boxes. The male BB's that have been here house-hunting this Spring seem to like the new design. Nest building should begin here later this month. Initial egg laying begins during the first week in April. I'd appreciate any feedback anyone would care to offer. Brucemac!"at"aol.com (Bruce Macdonald, SW Ontario, 25 miles south of Detroit) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:45:06 -0500 Carolyn Hall wrote: One thing about the wind, the nextboxes don't get so hot We installed echo roofs (the last two summers being the hottest recorded in many years) and we neve lost a single baby to the heat. Also, it helps keep the rain out. We made the roofs a little wider and on the nestbox with the side opening especially it kept it dry. They are very easy to install and the instructions are somewhere in the NABS information. Evelyn Cooper Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:31:12 -0500 Hi All, Of 4 eggs, the first 2 babies (so far) hatched this morning on what is to be the hottest day of the year so far. It is to get to 100 today, with heat indecies of 110 or more, I'm sure. Naturally, I was stressing big time; worrying about the babies whose nestbox is in the hot afternoon sun till around 6:00 p.m. My husband and I tried atttaching a regular-sized umbrella to the nestbox with electrical tape. It stuck okay, but with it being pretty breezy out, we were afraid if the wind took hold underneath, possible disaster was emminent. We then took cardboard about the width of the roof and tried taping on an extension. We had an early errand to run and by the time we came home, the extension had blown off. We contemplated moving the box, which I was hesitant to do, because of the two unhatched eggs inside and to move it to shade would put it closer to the woods. We finally came up with the idea of moving our patio umbrella and stand near the nest and raising the umbrella. I also pinned the flaps back so Mom and Dad could see the nest. We weighted the base with heavy rocks. Low and behold, not even 15 minutes later, with Dad first flying by to check it out, Mom flew up to the umbrella. Fluttering her wings at the extended umbrella while in midair, she then flew to the box. At first she checked everything out from the outside and then decided to go inside. Now, I feel confident she will contiunue to feed the babies through the day; and hopefully, all will be well! What you won't do for those little darlings. Our previous 4 from the first cluthare all pretty much on their own now. Dad refuses to feed them at this point, giving them a pretty hefty nudge when they approach him open-mouthed. Will keep everyone posted on their first hot day. Lee in Missouri
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:29:17 -0400 Hi Chris, Thanks for sharing your nest box temperature study with us. It clearly shows that the temperature inside the box with only holes was hotter than the temperature between the two roofs while the temperature inside the box with ventilation slots was cooler than the temperature between the two roofs. This means heat was accumulating in the nest box with the ventilation holes even though there was a second roof over top of the box which effectively put the box in the shade. Were it not for the second roof, as per the table below, the top of the box would have been 14 to 15 degrees hotter and more heat would have accumulated. It also shows that heat was not accumulating in the box with the ventilation slots because the temperature inside the box was lower than that of the roof. Life or death for eggs and chicks can be separated by only a couple degrees. Gary Springer, Writing from the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains in Northeast Georgia, further north than most of South Carolina and a bit of North Carolina. Most extensive source of Bluebird information http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bestofbbml/bblindx.htm Real Bird Homes www.realbirdhomes.com Box 1: temp on top of shade roof: 104 104 103 temp inside box: 89.4 91.4 93 temp between shade roof and real roof: 90.2 90.2 90.3 Box 2: temp on top of shade roof: 104 107 105 temp inside box: 87.1 88.9 87.5 temp between shade roof and real roof: 90.1 90.2 90.2
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 14:40:38 -0400 Pam Ford, and others, I made the statement here the other day that in some places, where the weather and climate were cooperative, Bluebirds occasionally achieved 4 nestings in one summer. I was promptly told by a knowledgable (sp?) person that this was unlikely. So.....I don't know where the truth lies. I've certainly never seen a 4th nesting here in NH. Has anyone who lives in a warmer place seen 4th nestings? Are they common? Rare? Unheard-of? And if you've seen some, do you think they were successful? Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 15:12:42 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas There have been several successful 4 th nestings in several locations in the US. Harry Krueger retrapped all of his adult eastern bluebirds and in a single year he had 5 different nestboxes where the same 5 pairs of eastern bluebirds successfully fledged four different broods of young birds. He checked these boxes nearly everyday when they had young birds and could verify by band numbers that these birds can nest four times in a single season. This is in East Texas where eggs can be laid as early as late Feb. and young are often still in the nestboxes in Sept. I believe in several northern areas there have also been four different brood fledge out of a single box only I am not sure the adults were all verified as the same birds by being banded. KK
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 15:48:06 -0500 I just received an e-mail from John Graham who lives in Baton Rouge, La. telling me that his pair has started on their fourth nesting. He said he took the box down and saw them a few days later checking out an old sparrow box next door and he quickly put the box back up and they took to it immediately. My bluebirds have started their third clutch and probably their last for the year and a good year it has been so far. Evelyn Cooper
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 17:30:03 -0400 Hi Pam. I think it is hard to tell if it is the same pair doing the "multiple" nesting. In some cases where the nests are in my backyard, I get to know the birds, and they get to know me. Based on that it may be possible to claim multiple nestings (but even that is not for sure.) So, with uncertainty, I can say I have had three nestings by the same pair... they moved to another adjacent box for the third cycle. I think our season is not long enough for having frequent four nestings, though it may have happened (with the uncertainty mentioned earlier.) If anyone bands their birds in Maryland, it would be interesting to know how frequent three and four nestings are (by the same pair.) Fawzi in Laytonsville, MD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pamela Ford" jpford"at"home.com ...
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 21:10:01 -0400 Hi Lee, Jim and all, Summer before last I had the same dangerous heat conditions. I saved three houses of nestlings by putting 3 to4 inch thick styrofoam sheets on the roofs. They overhung all around by at least 3 inches and I attached them in a few seconds with bunjie cords. The adults didn't bat an eye and accepted them right away. Couldn't have been quicker, easier or cheaper for all the pieces were saved from packing boxes. Ruth Edwards, Westport, MA
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:33:07 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas I mentioned that 107*F is not absolute death for birds eggs or young in some instances. IF the female will brood the young and eggs during extreme heat she will actually be cooling the eggs rather than heating them. Jack Griggs sent me some information while we were working on the new bluebird book for the Cornell bird library series and it showed that many species of birds, especially in the hot southwest, will actually do this and can raise young even when daily temperatures soar repeatedly above 118*F. They do this by keeping their young or eggs in contact with their relatively cool breast of about 100*F. They have evolved and have adapted to this type of weather! I believe there is a larger percentage of birds in the south that can survive and multiply during high heat than in northern areas. Continuous high heat will actually kill less nesting attempts in our area than when we have extreme spikes in the temperature. We should all install a cheap probe thermometer in a couple of nestboxes when temperatures climb just to see what the differences in location or ventilation is doing between a couple of boxes. If you have different styles check them all to see which is the cooler style! Try to locate or ventilate the nestbox to keep it under 100*F (inside temp) at ALL times during summer months! It is better to leave an air gap between your roof when installing a shade roof over the top! 3/4" is the preferred gap as this has been shown to allow the least radiated heat from one layer to the next. 3/4" thick shade roofs with an air gap are as effective as 4" thick roofs! Shade is what is keeping the inside cool! (housing industry testing of different materials shows the gap is more important than R-value) The shade roof should be located so that it completely shades the box until about 4 PM. This might take a second roof that is 12"x12" or larger! For those with boxes mounted in full sun consider installing a second "shade" side for the west facing part of the nestbox. Also leave at least a 3/4" gap between the sides also. We hit 101*F yesterday and are actually having a record cool
summer! I have found that larger and deeper boxes mounted on
the east sides of large power poles will fledge more birds from
June 1 to Sept. than any other type of nestbox mounted in full
sun. Late nesting females seem to know to shift nest Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:49:36 -0400 A heat shield, weather shield, roof-over, second roof or whatever you want to call an extra top to a nest box that not only helps keep the box cooler in hot weather, but can also help keep the nest and box drier and help make the box last longer, can be very easily made. Simply cut out or build a wooden roof that is the same shape as the existing roof on the nest box, thread a couple of inch and 5/8ths or two inch deck screws down into the new roof until the screws protrude through the lower side of the second roof about half an inch. Place this second roof on top of the existing roof. If your screws are positioned properly, when you set the second roof down on top of the existing roof there will be about a half inch gap between the two roofs because the screw tips keep the second roof up above the existing roof as if it were on stilts. Then, simply turn the screws into the existing roof just enough to keep the second roof in place. When I make a roof-over as described I almost always make it larger to add a couple more inches of overhang on all sides. If you are using the Chalet nest box there is no need to turn the screws down into the box because the second roof will stay on the gable roof even if there is strong wind. In fact, for this box I usually glue wooden spacers to the roof over and just set it on top of the box or lift it off during cool weather because gravity sufficiently holds the second roof in place on the Chalet. I have used one inch lumber and 3/8ths exterior grade plywood for these roof overs. I have also made gable roof overs by gluing other weather proof materials into pieces of the metal strips used for drywall corners. I believe you will find these roof overs will help keep your bluebird chicks cool and vigorous in sweltering hot weather and extremely dry even in long periods of rain. Gary Springer, A Former Pennsylvanian writing from the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains in Northeast Georgia, further north than most of South Carolina and a bit of North Carolina. Most extensive source of Bluebird information http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bestofbbml/bblindx.htm Real Bird Homes www.realbirdhomes.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:44:10 -0400 ... I believe that if you combine the practice of using nest boxes that have ventilation slots between the roof and the sides of the nest box with the use of these weather shields with added roof overhang, the chicks in your nest boxes will remain cool and vigorous in sweltering hot weather and extremely dry even during long periods of rain. Gary Springer, ... Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 11:52:25 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas Ok we have been getting reports of people who have not checked their nestboxes after day 12 for fear their young birds will prematurely fledge! They watch some of the young fledge and then find fully feathered young birds dead from no apparent reason when they open the box for cleaning. The following might be a factor as it deals with tightly packed, fully feathered birds in high heat. We have been having a very mild, record cool summer for east Texas but this last week we were above 100*F for 7 days. On Thursday we hit 104*F with about 80% humidity with heat index in excess of 115*F so water coolers for cooling don't work very well. I got a call from an egg production farm for an emergency fan installation job. It seems that laying hens when they are fully feathered are very susceptible to high heat. Young laying hens do not have all of their feathers yet and older hens shed large patches of feathers and have a LOT of bare skin to help them shed excess body heat. These laying houses are 80 feet wide and 660 feet long and hold 90,000 hens. They are contained in wire cages and six hens share a 12"x16" floor. The cage is also 16" tall. They are cramped just about like 5 baby bluebirds in a 4"x4" nestbox. The hens must spend their entire life in this cage so the main house is equipped with sections of walls covered with water cooler pads and hundreds of industrial sized fans (48" blades). There is enough air blowing that safety glasses are a must to keep debris out of your eyes. In the only house to have fully feathered hens they lost over 600 or a little over 1/2% of the chickens on Thursday alone! Eight other laying houses on the same farm with hens in various other stages of feather development only lost a total of less than 100 hens or an average of 12 birds per house. All other factors are the same! Walking through the house it seems that the birds in areas of the house where they get little or no air movement would lose a weak bird from one of these cages. After they lose a number of birds it seems to reduce crowding and the remaining birds survive. This is one reason I use the larger 5"x5" nestbox for bluebirds. I saw in the late 70's that during high heat weeks I was losing most of the baby birds in smaller 4"x4" nestboxes when they were mounted in full sun. Everything else with box thickness, color and ventilation was the same only more birds were dying in smaller boxes. On occasion I would open a nestbox that had a side in full sun and see the baby birds standing away from this side of the box to escape the radiated heat and they would be plastered against the far wall of the box. Ever sit in a too small living room with a super hot burning fireplace? You try to sit as far away from the fire as possible! Linda Violett brought up this subject a couple weeks ago about using larger nestboxes to allow the young birds more room to spread out. This spreading out is common knowledge in the chicken industry. They can predict potential losses by simply looking at the thermometer! Geographically in the past, west of the Mississippi river most trails used 5"x5" bottoms or larger in their nestboxes where as those in the Northeast were normally 4"x4". Montana for example can go from 45*F in the morning to 95*F at 3 PM along the bluebird trails. We are only guessing when we answer most of the questions dealing with bird deaths from an individuals nestbox as there are many factors to take into consideration. This is just one more factor to think about when you find fully feathered young birds in a nestbox. Remember these hens have fans and water cooler walls and have a constant supply of water in each cage. While young bluebirds are at the mercy of a hot breeze, if any and the only moisture being brought to them is in the form of a juicy caterpillar. KK
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 14:20:05 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA KK, with all due respect, I am cautious about making a blanket statement like this because it doesn't take into account the number of successful fledges of bluebirds from Gilbertsons. I've had enough fledge in the dead of summer so far from Gilbertsons so as not to discourage me from using them. However, I've not had years of experience. I certainly would concur they would most likely fry in a Gilbertson during a Texas summer. Maybe we can hear from other northerners - or other Gilbertson users? Perhaps bluebirds in the north are hardier? Just mine? I am very curious. H Keith & Sandy Kridler wrote: Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas ...
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:44:05 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Haleya Priest Amherst MA KK, with all due respect, I am cautious about making a blanket statement like this because it doesn't take into account the number of successful fledges of bluebirds from Gilbertsons. I've had enough fledge in the dead of summer so far from Gilbertsons so as not to discourage me from using them. However, I've not had years of experience. I certainly would concur they would most likely fry in a Gilbertson during a Texas summer. Maybe we can hear from other northerners - or other Gilbertson users? Perhaps bluebirds in the north are hardier? Just mine? I am very curious. H Dead of summer is different in different parts of the country! In 1980 from May to August east Texas had 69 days in a row exceeding 100*F shade temperature. It ranged from 100115*F during this spell. We had a total of 100 days exceeding 100*F. There is not ONE NABS approved nestbox that theoretically will be safe to mount in full sun when temperatures reach an actual 104*F when measured in a shady location! In the 1979 heat tests of all approved nestbox styles at that time the white 1/4" thick walled PVC pipe nestboxes (schedule 40 PVC) I supplied to NABS were cooler than ALL wood nestboxes tested except for those made out of true 2" thick lumber. [The Gilbertson box (designed in 1989) is made from (S&D, sewer and drain PVC) PVC pipe 1/16" wall thickness.] Even so these 2" thick octagon shaped wood nest box styles gained 5*F over surrounding air temperatures taken in the shade. So in effect the BEST wood nestbox tested would still be lethal at any temperature above 102*F as lethal temperatures as determined with House Wren eggs is 107*F at this temperature then 90% mortality occurs to eggs, embryos and newly hatched young when their core temperature reach this temperature. Eggs do not hatch and young die at this temperature. In humans we suffer brain damage at this body temperature. You can kill nearly all known insects pests in flower bulbs with hot water treatment of 112*F as exposure to this temperature for 30 minutes is lethal to even the dreaded nematode. Even if organisms survive the high temperatures then they may have suffered brain or nervous system damage. In humans we can be taken care of and go places in a wheel chair. Baby birds that have physical problems are left in a nest or die on the ground if they can never fly or walk correctly. There are SO many reasons that fine looking birds are left behind that we truly are guessing! I have found birds of three different species that had cord or string or hair wrapped around a leg keeping them tied to the nest until they died of either heat or starvation! In 1979 I fledged 1,235 bluebirds out of 179 nestboxes. In 1980 I had 161 nestboxes with bluebird eggs or young birds in them towards the end of May in the same week. I had already fledged 600+ birds by the time the really high heat wave hit. It was remarkable to me that I was cooking in a car while checking boxes and bluebirds continued to raise young into Sept. I could drive up to a 4"x4" wood box that was built from the plans from NABS and know that the young or eggs were not going to make it if the box was in full sun..... This is not a blanket statement only a fact I learned through 100 days of 100*F plus weather on my trail that stretched over approximately 120 square miles in the far northeast corner of Texas. You might ask to see the losses that Minnesota experienced that year during their 2 weeks of high heat days where they only reached about 95*F. Losses were high enough in Peterson boxes that this box was altered to four ventilation holes instead of the two and this "new" design improvement continues still 21 years later!!! Dick Tuttle experienced losses in his boxes in central Ohio that year also. There were many variables but heat was determined to be the real killer that summer. Dick changed his stand on ventilation that year and recommended TWO ventilation slots instead of one slot. When temperatures reach 100*F+ in your area watch to see the percentage of eggs that hatch drop and also the number of young birds below the age of 9 days that die or disappear from the nest! I'm sorry to ramble on so but the point I was trying to make was that using nine separate chicken laying houses that are basically identical in construction, ventilation, insulation and orientation to the sun and wind. Throw in 90,000 birds in each house of a very narrow gene pool so that they are practically identical to one another and then have the only factor that varies is the difference in age (total feather development.) These birds range in age from 3 months old to 12 months old in the different houses and you have 60 times more dying in their prime egg laying month at 5 months (fully feathered) than at ANY other age group! The farm manager KNEW that this was the only house they were going to have heat problems with!!! These hens were laying 96% or 96 out of a 100 of the hens in this house were laying eggs on the Wednesday before the die off. Try to imagine going to a major sports event where you are standing on wire bleachers and stay in your assigned seat for 12 months. Food and water will be passed to you but you cannot move more than six seats! This is why your table eggs only cost 69 cents a dozen for jumbo size! KK
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:05:18 -0400 Haleya Priest AMherst MA Dear KK et al, I am not disputing any of your essential and critical facts, observations, and experience :-) Perhaps I can clarify my point I was trying to make. I think we need to be careful to consider the varying specific conditions in each of our areas and how that affects our individual needs. I believe we agree that the "dead of summer" means different things to different locales. Up here in New England we really don't HAVE to have 5" by 5" box dimensions. We can also have some Gilbertsons up. Up here, a larger shade roof seems to take care of a large percentage of the heat problem. Down where you are a 5" by 5" box sounds like it has to be the standard design and even THAT doesn't solve the problem. I was nervous about your post because if I were a newbie in New England, I'd think that the standard NABS box I had was no good and I had to have a 5 by 5 inch box if my birds were going to be safe at all. If I had Gilbertsons I figure I'd have to dump them all together. I know that isn't what you were intending, but I felt that others could construe it that way. My only request is that we make sure to remember what works and is needed in one part of the country MIGHT be a tad different in others. And we should all make sure to specify that. Global warming might change the very face of bluebirding - and we might all end up not being able to use Gilbertsons or the standard NABS designs at all. Who knows. In any event, I hope I have clarified my point. Thanks for listening. :-) H
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:17:12 -0400 Hello all, Just in case some of you think I am concerned about heat inside nest boxes because I live in Georgia, or, that heat inside nest boxes isn't nearly as great a concern in the northern states, please note the following: 1) I lived in Pennsylvania for 32 years and spent two winters in North Dakota. 2) Summer temperatures are sometimes higher in the north than in the south. The biggest differences in temperatures between places in the south east and the north occur during the winter months, not during the summer months. 3) The temperatures forecast for the next three days for Carnesville, Georgia where I live are:http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/se/GA/CarnesvilleGA20.html Sunday 89 Sunny The temperatures forecast for the next three days for Peoria, Illinois are:http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/nc/IL/PeoriaPIA.html 95 Sunny Nearly everywhere I go I see nest boxes with no ventilation at all or just a couple small holes drilled in the side which really is no ventilation at all.. On a clear sunny day when temperatures are near 90 degrees, would someone in the north please stick a thermometer inside one of these boxes in full sun with no ventilation and share with the list what the temperature inside the nest box is? Gary Springer, Writing from the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains in Northeast Georgia, further north than most of South Carolina and a bit of North Carolina. Most extensive source of Bluebird information http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bestofbbml/bblindx.htm Real Bird Homes www.realbirdhomes.com Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:54:18 -0500 Hello Everyone, It is 100 degrees in the shade today with terribly high humidity. Fourteen days ago, the little ones hatched in 95 degree weather with heat indicies of 110-115. We put up our patio umbrella over the nestbox then, since it is in direct sunlight till 6:00 p.m. Today, about an hour ago, we put it up again. I just came inside from the nestbox. I took a cup of water with me and when I got to the box, I dipped my finger in the cup and felt inside the hole till I felt the top of their little heads. They responded with their little beaks on my fingertip. Then, one opened his mouth and I was able to drop him some water from the tip of my finger. I'm sure that it helped them a bit. I'm going to try it again a little later. It is s-o-o-o hot inside that box. I'm hoping the umbrella doesn't interfere with their attempt to fledge. I feel I should leave it up as it is not supposed to get any cooler all this week. Will keep you posted. Lee in Missouri Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:24:27 EDT Hello Gary and all, Gary, I know you wanted to know the temp in a box without good ventilation but thought this would tell us something. So I think the ventilation slots are good and I think the second roofs help as well. We built the boxes bigger than standard size and find that the blues in our yard build very substantial nests of pine needles, 6-7 inches tall. We remove an inch or so of nesting material from the bottom so they aren't so close to the hole. BTW, the occupied nest box is the third nesting in the third different box by the same pair of bluebirds in our yard and if successful, they will have fledged 14 babies this season. I do supplement them with mealworms. I sighted all of the first 9 fledglings, with the last 4 still feeding around the yard. Mom bluebird won't allow them near the mealworms anymore and chases them off. Laura, Marlborough, CT Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:53:05 -0500 At 01:54 PM 7/22/01 -0500, you wrote: ... I would be very careful about doing something like this. These babies get their water from the insects their parents feed them. It is very easy to get a drop of water down the trachea and give them pneumonia, which can happen even to people experienced in the hand feeding of domestic birds! If they have not objected to the umbrella so far, just leave
it up. That way you won't distress them by putting it up, taking
it down, putting it up, etc... Kate Oschwald Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 20:06:07 -0700 We had 112 degrees on July 3 near my trail in Central California. We lost some birds and even more eggs. Shade does help. We've attached cardboard shade with some success but at that heat is not perfect. Spraying cold water on the nestlings and giving them drinks helps. If your nestbox is close to your house and you have a sprinkler you can adjust to a fine mist, placing this under the nestbox will cool the air and help overall. Be sure you're not spraying constantly into the box. Hatch Graham Lee & Jim Johnson wrote: Hello Everyone,It has been 14 days since my last post and ... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:01:50 -0600 I checked the temp. in both wooden and my PVC boxes and at 90* ambient there is a 10* difference + or - 2 degrees. The wooden boxes are always hotter. All boxes are out in the direct sun and it was bright and clear the day I took these reading in 12 boxes each. We have 285 day on sunshine a year but the humidity is generally in the low teens. Bob Wilson Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 01:03:07 -0400 Hi Bob, You wrote: "I checked the temp. in both wooden and my PVC boxes and at 90* ambient there is a 10* difference + or - 2 degrees. The wooden boxes are always hotter." I hope everyone realizes that the PVC nest box on which you have conducted your heat tests is not one constructed from PVC pipe. I am certain your fine PVC nest boxes are cooler than conventional PVC boxes made from pipe because yours have open double walled sides and roof. But, I believe you will no longer write "the wooden boxes are always hotter" if one of the wooden nest boxes in your heat studies had more than six square inches of ventilation, 170 square inches of roof area, and a second roof. Gary Springer Writing from the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains in
Northeast Georgia, further north than most of South Carolina
and a bit of North Carolina. Most extensive source of Bluebird information http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bestofbbml/bblindx.htm Real Bird Homes www.realbirdhomes.com
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:45:52 -0400 Hi All: During the second nesting at Antietam it was noted female Bluebird shielded nestlings from sun shining in hole on babies during a 93* day. High humidity and 95* weather in Middletown, MD today caused concern for four nestboxes with babies ranging from 4 days to 12 days of age - all third nestings. Enter 3/4"styrofoam plastic custom-cut on the scene, hole punched in sides of top to allow tie-on with elastic. Spacers of push-pins elevated styrofoam from wooden top. Voila!! temporary shade and a cooler box! It looks kinda weird but does the job for now! Betty Nichols, Middletown, MD
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 21:38:09 -0700 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Betty, it sounds like either the box was very shallow from the hole to the floor for the sun to shine in through the hole and onto the babies, or there was a very high nest. What was the approximate drop from the bottom of the hole to floor and what changes would prevent this from happening again? I.e., would you alter the box and/or site? Elizabeth Nichols wrote: Hi All: Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:05:09 -0400 ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Linda Violett lviolett"at"earthlink.net Hi Linda & All: Your question re: distance of entry hole from base allowing sun rays to enter box -- here is my interpretation: On the Antietam box we noted between 3:00 & 3:30 p.m. is when the sun's rays in the box facing West were most visible inside the box - that is when the female was standing between the nestlings & the sun's rays shielding the youngsters. I placed the styrofoam at the same time of day on West-facing boxes on my trail allowing styrofoam to shade entrance hole and the side of box where the sun was also shining. The entrance hole is the standard distance from floor of box and the nest is not excessively high. It is hitting around 98* here today, hope the styrofoam and its strategic placement continue to provide some protection. Thanks for writing. Betty Nichols, Middletown, MD Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. ...
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:05:27 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA Ok - even hotter here today and will be upwards to 100* tomorrow. Trying to figure out whether I ought to take more action or not. What are folks finding out - are birds making it without shade roofs?? KK mentioned his babies in boxes with 2 holes, etc are fine. Those with low ventilation not good. I have babies ranging from 5 days to ready to fledge. Would like to hear from those that have done nothing - are you finding deaths?????? 5 dayers might be in more danger since can't regulate own temperature. It is really good to know what the limit of what the birds can handle is otherwise we can all be putting up heat shields, etc where not necessary and doing nothing when we ought to be. Would be nice for us all to collaborate on this. Don't know if heat index makes difference - it is high here. Thanks, H
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:45:00 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas 97*F now and heat index of 100*F. Yesterday it was 102*F for a high and heat index of 110*F. I really haven't done anything to my boxes that are in the full sun here in the yard. I do have two inches of roof overhang on three sides of the box. Boxes are made out of 3/4" wood or thicker. I just found another nest of bluebirds with young in my starling trap box so three out of four pairs of bluebirds have chosen telescoping poles to nest in. House sparrows are using two others and I need to check a couple more telescoping poles. Most of the other (about 25) low mounted nestboxes are empty now here at my house. It is strange that you can walk by a box in your yard for three weeks and never see a bluebird near it and then find young birds! The starling trap box is 200 feet south of the two holed box mounted to the martin house pole with young about 14 days old and 225 feet north of the telephone pole mounted box with young about 8 days old. I believe the birds can stand higher heat in the south and winds are gusting to 17 MPH even though it does feel like a furnace. The young birds do not seem overly stressed at this point and I will check interior box temperatures later today during the highest heat time. There are ventilation gaps across the tops of two sides of these boxes of at least 1/2" and really closer to 3/4" gaps. I will double check measurements on these to be sure.
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:31:44 -0500 Temps have been in the 90's here in Iowa for the last ten days to two weeks with heat indices of 100-110F. I have done nothing with my boxes (heat shields, ie.). I had several nests of babies fledge last week (after one week of high temps) without a problem. I've also had two nests with eggs that hatched 3 days ago when the temps. were 92-98F and heat indices of 105-110F and they seem to be okay. The babies are usually sleeping when I check on them but they quickly pop their heads up for food when I open the boxes. My boxes have a 2" roof overlap on the sides and ~3" on the front. I have 1/2" vent holes drilled, two per side, at the top of the sides adjacent to the front. There is a noticeable higher temp. inside of the boxes. I am surprised I haven't had any problems with this heat and the nestlings so far. I think they have a higher tolerance to heat than we think, at least on my trail that is what I observe. Jay Gilliam -----Original Message----- From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net] ...
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 17:23:27 -0400 OK: Lots of attention hereabouts to the need for supplemental insulation for nest boxes during this extraordinary period of high summer heat. The simplest solution that I can think of....short of replacing boxes with those having a 3/4" ventilation slot along the unopening sides of the box....would be...to cut a piece of 1" blueboard insulation the size of the box roof or slightly larger and put it on the existing roof and then fasten it in place with a couple of "BIG BAND" rubber bands (the kind used to secure garbage bags in a 30 gallon can) under and around the nest box. They can be found at K-Mart/Wal-Mart in the school supplies section...and lots of other places, too. Sure the rubber bands will deteriorate in the heat, but they will last the duration of this current heat wave. That would seem to me to be the easiest way to go. Dean Sheldon, Huron County, Ohio (just south of Lake Erie)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 16:54:02 -0700 Dear Friends, I have notice allot of talk about heat in BB nesting boxes and how to solve the present challenge. I use heat shields on my freestanding Barn Owl boxes, but have never had to employ heat shields with my BB nesting boxes. Sure it gets hot out here, but we also have cool mornings and evenings because of the Pacific coast which is only 30 or 35 mile away. However, my heart goes out to all of you who are dealing with this heat wave. Despite all of the great and helpful suggestion that I've read regarding heat shields, polystyrene shield overhangs and so on, I was trying to think of something that would not disturb the BB as much. Applying structural additions to the nesting boxes should be done in the off season and not in the nesting season while the BBs are still raising their broods in my humble opinion. Finally a thought came to my mind that made perfect sense and it is so simple that I'm sorry I didn't think of it earlier. So here we go. In the early 1800s when "The sun never set on the British empire", English and other explorers would wear (and still do) pith helmets to protect their heads from the heat of the tropics. Pith is a soft spongy tissue of a palm tree and like a sponge it soaks up water. The proper way to use a pith helmet is to first soak it in water so the pith absorbs the water. Then while your wearing it the water evaporates from the pith which refrigerates your head. A great invention for keeping one cool, under the worst heat imaginable. Now your probably thinking, "John, how is this going to work for BBs, we can't go out and find miniature pith helmets for all of them, can we?" Now that would be a sight BBs flying about with pith helmets and their blue feathers looking like uniforms. All they would need is a brass band playing "Listen to the Mockingbird". Well, in short you don't have to. While cedar, pine, or other woods are not pith, they still absorb water and the principle of evaporation still applies. Here are a couple of suggests you can try if you want to make the effort. 1. If your nesting boxes are in your back yard then turn on a sprinkler and let the water run over and off the roof of your nesting boxes. The adult birds will enjoy the water and if your nesting boxes are sealed up nicely then water getting into the nesting box should not be a problem either. 2. If your nesting boxes are away from a water source try a portable sprayer filled with water and saturate the roof (or roofs) of your nesting boxes. 3. If you have a irrigation system you could employ a misting system to your nesting boxes. A misting system works fantastic and you'll only need some black PVC tubing, one mist emitter per nesting box and you can put it on a timer so it goes off at the hottest time in the day. Simple and effective. I think the best time to apply the water would be in the morning before it gets to hot and you may need to apply it again in the afternoon. Better still a good soaking at night and again in the morning might be better. This will allow time for the water to soak into the wood properly so the BBs will be protected for a longer period of time. Once the water soaks into the wood and starts to evaporate under the heat of the sun (just like the pith helmet) the Passive Air Conditioning for BB Nesting Boxes will commence. Remember that cold air falls and hot air raises so cool air will fall into the nest. Sorry the above will only work on nesting boxes made of wood not PVC and probably will not work very well with nesting boxes that have been treated with latex paints or sealant. Of course this may not be practical for those of us with larger trails, but should work great for those with small trails. This doesn't solve the overhang challenges which will need to be adjusted after the nesting season is over (in my opinion) or you can try the temporary polystyrene shield overhang (mentioned on a earlier posting). I'll leave it up to you to decided if you want to try this or not. Just thought I'd share something that I believe will help in the short run and I which you all... Happy Bluebird Trails To You,
From: "Frank Navratil Sr" frnavrat"at"concentric.net To: "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu Cc: "Ron Olsen" olsen3"at"surfree.com, "John Skach" skach1"at"aol.com Subject: Comments about an article in BLUEBIRD winter 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:43:32 -0600 I have submitted the following to the BLUEBIRD for publication.
I do not know if it will be published, but I do want to share
my comments with you To the Editor: In the Winter 2002 Bluebird (page5), Dorene Scriven wrote: "It doesn't take a degree in physics to realize the difference in heat absorption. And, while the laws of physics are oft times suspended in Texas, in other parts of the country radiation intensity is strongest when the sun is directly overhead (noon as in earlier reported tests), not at 6p.m." Dorene rebuked Keith Kridler for stating (In the Fall 2001 Bluebird, page9) that: "The Peterson nest box heat gain was about double at 6 p.m. what it was at noon! (Heat gain is the inside box temperature over a controlled ambient air thermometer located in full shade)." I have always realized that surface color has an important effect on heat absorption by various materials. White reflects most of the suns heat energy and black absorbs the most heat energy. But, I did not know by what amount nest cavity temperatures rose above the ambient temperature. I never painted my birdhouses black. However, I did always use dark brown because that color seemed unobtrusive and it caused the birdhouse to "disappear" into the surrounding vegetation. During August 1998, I elected to make temperature measurements on both PVC and wooden birdhouses. The birdhouses were oriented with entry holes facing north. Bird House Types Monitored: The details of the tests and the hour by hour graphed data
are posted at my website: Well, it was a surprise to me, but my test data supports what Keith Kridler states. Yes, cavity heat gain is greatest in early morning and late afternoon! Yes, noontime displays the lowest heat gain! And of course dark colors do absorb more heat and exaggerate the heat gain. My testing terminated at 4 p.m., but the trend of temperature gain in the birdhouse certainly suggests that 6 p.m. could be the time of largest heat gain. Birdhouse color is the most influential factor. The Peterson birdhouse that was painted dark brown had greatest heat gain at 4 p.m. when I stopped recording data (+9 degrees F. at the end of the day). The Peterson birdhouse that was painted white had negligible heat gain in my opinion (only +2 degrees F. all day long). I now paint most of my birdhouses white. When the color white is not desirable and heat gain is of importance, then the lightest shade of the color chosen seems the best choice. I oriented my test birdhouses facing north simply to keep the sun out of the nest cavity. In the field I try to face the entry facing North or East because driving summer rains usually come from the South or West. Frank Navratil Sr., North Riverside, Illinois From: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com Hello Frank and all. I would like to make some comments which hopefully will clear some of the science behind what is being observed, and what is being said. If I am not coming across clearly, please let me know. I will also try to state the facts in as simple a way as I can (though this can be made mathematically exact if needed.) There are two things associated with this process, they are: heat and temperature. The two are quite different, yet related. For example, if you have a large pot of water, say a gallon, and you apply heat to it, you can apply the heat at different rates (hi, med or lo.) Next you can measure the temperature of the water as you apply this heat. You'll find there is a time delay as the temperature rises (it will rise exponentially, and this has a "time constant" associated with it.) The time constant of this temperature rise is directly related to the heat setting, being longer as the heat is lowered. You can also make the time constant longer if you put some insulation between the heat source and the bottom of the pot! So, the time to reach a certain temperature depends on the strength of the heat source, the amount of material being heated, and the insulation between the source and where the temperature is measured. [Color of box can act like insulation or a lowering of the heat source if it is white, and less so as the color goes darker towards black.] Now, it is definitely true that the "heat" value of the shining sun is maximum when the sun is directly overhead. This happens close to noon. However, the maximum temperature inside a nestbox will not happen till some time later. Also, the value of heat going into the box will depend on the insulation which resists the heat flow. The Peterson box is particularly well insulated at the top and back, but less insulated at the sides and front (thick wood on back and top, less thick on the front and sides.) When the sun is at its hottest, the time constant (insulation) of the box is at its best. Thus the temperature will not rise fast till some time later, perhaps when the sun hits the sides. Note also that maximum temperature may be reached when heat gain is not at the highest... At 6 PM the heat gain may or may not be the largest depending on the box design and orientation. The heat source is largest at noon, but the temperature is not highest at noon. Your experimental results are very consistent with science. Just some corrections are needed to make the language scientifically accurate. When the sun shines on the sides and front, such as in the morning and afternoon, the insulation is less, and the temperature may rise quicker than when the sun is directly overhead. Thus, I have no reason to doubt your results. [But please do not define heat gain as a temperature, though the two are related in time and space.] An equally important quantity to measure is the "drop" in temperature, i.e. after the box reaches its hottest, does it cool fast or slow? This may depend on venting even a little air going through the box may cool it fast. If the box does not cool fast, it becomes a serious problem in the hot regions such as TX and MD. Also, without adequate vents, in hot climate like MD, TX, etc. a box that gets too hot in the day is deadly. The process of cooling goes on at the same time as that of heating of the box. Depending on which is faster, the cavity will get warmer or cooler. In hot climates in order to use the Peterson box, I would recommend more vents at the top, slightly wider vents in the front above the door, and at the bottom where the door meets the floor (even with a full nest covering the latter vent, cooling air will still easily go through the nest material to cool the nest and babies, with no drafts.) But, if the weather is very cold, such vents may keep the box too cold (like in MN.) For places that go from very hot to very cold quickly, the Peterson box has some good advantages. I have used all sorts of boxes, and I find the lighter NABS or NABS style boxes are easier to handle in the field due to the smaller size and lighter weight. Fawzi Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net I would like to add a laypersons perspective to all this science "stuff"! I know that, in the summer, the heat buildup in our house is much higher in the late afternoon than even at midday when the sun is the "hottest". The sun can beat on the house throughout the day but we really don't feel it until late afternoon. I always thought it was just the cumulative effect of the sun's rays after an entire day and that the house cooled in the evening as the heat dissipated. And I'm talking about a "people" house! Now I'll have to rethink this! Judy Mellin ... From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas A warm 46*F this morning! Here in Texas this proved deadly! Dark colors will be up to 17*F hotter than the same nestbox that is painted white. Painting a roof white while leaving the nestbox dark will only cool the box by 1*F as the main heat gain will come through the sides of the box. These are from scientific controlled heat tests on various nestboxes in 1966 by Larry Zeleny, repeated by Robert Patterson in 1979&1980 and others in the 1990's. The first letter I received from Larry Zeleny in 1976 contained his 1966 heat test results. Research done with House wren eggs and young birds & also chickens show that eggs & newly hatched young birds less than 8 days old will perish when inside the nestbox temperatures reach 107*F even for only a few hours. Humans suffer brain and organ damage when a fever raises our core body temperature to 107*F for a few hours. Hot water treating flower bulbs to 112*F for four hours kills all insect pests in the bulbs from nematodes to mites so many insects and animals cannot stand a core body temperature in this range. I found that to keep from killing bluebirds in my area that the nestboxes needed more ventilation than even the current NABS nestbox styles. I would place shims under the roof edges to increase the amount of ventilation until I quit losing so many birds. It takes a minimum of 4&1/2 square inches of vents besides the entrance hole and set up to where there is cross ventilation and not all on one side of the box. I use between 1/2"3/4" gaps under the roofs on my nestboxes. (A 7/8" slot when trapping house sparrows will allow them to escape!) I cut the bottom corners of the box off so that there is LOTS of bottom ventilation. (Almost to the point where and egg could fall out!) Roofs should overhang the sides by at least 2" in hot climates and 4" in the front. The nestboxes should be mounted where they will be shaded in the afternoon and if possible to where prevailing winds, breezes will blow through from side to side to carry away summer heat. During cool springs, vents can easily be closed to prevent chilling. If you will check the nestboxes regularly next year and find young birds dead you can tell if they died of heat as their skin will be a sickly yellow shade and the blood will not be pink or red but nearly dark brown. I think if you check the dark colored nestboxes with a thermometer placed inside the box when the box is in full sun about 3 PM you will find that this nestbox plan will be at 107*F when the air temperature is at 94*F during the summer months. I had no "scientific" tests or limits to go by when I started bluebirding and I lost hundreds of baby birds and eggs doing trial and error! ALL of us should check some of our nestboxes for heat gain this next year during hot summer days! Although not "scientific" I "seemed" to lose more birds in 4"x4" square bottom boxes compared to 5"x5" and deeper boxes tended to be better fledging young than the Terres box with only a 7" floor to roof depth. I received Larry Zeleny's bluebird book in 1977 and was inspired to "Be Like Him". I set a goal of someday fledging 1,000 bluebirds! I rushed out and numbered about 35 nestboxes I already had up on our 42 acre farm because I couldn't monitor the hundreds of gourds I had up in the area. I fledged about 35 birds, installed a small trail of 96 boxes the next year and fledged 325 and increased to 179 boxes and fledged 1,235 the next. NEVER set your goals TOO low or TOO easy to reach! KK From: "Jim McLochlin" bluebirdbox"at"cox.net Fawzi, Frank, Dorene (who I know isn't on the list), Keith, and all others who have followed this thread, I believe that Fawzi and Frank have given sound evidence for heat gain problems with nest boxes. Fawzi in particular has given the real world explanation of what is going on. This explains why boxes have heat gains at points in time and even why some boxes may be less suitable than others for different geographical areas. My thoughts are that you should keep an open mind to nest box design. The boxes that work, that is the boxes that fledge the most birds in your area are the "right" ones. Determining this is dependent on so many variables and over time those variables are subject to change. I believe that is why a variety of nest box designs is important as well as placement of those boxes in a variety of locations. Some in shade, some in direct sun, etc,. What is important is to give the birds the option of selecting what is in the best interest for them. They may not always chose wisely, but they will more than likely chose better than we would for them. Of course this does not mean we should erect any box. The box must be of good design with as many of the variables factor in as possible. This I believe is what makes the Peterson, NABS, & Gilbertson the standards that they have become. For the most part all nest box designs are based on these standards. Size, opening orientation, etc, variations are what make the boxes different from the standards and may even improve on the standards (although I have seen little improvements to the Peterson design). All in all the best answer is use the box that fledges birds and that you can easily monitor. Jim McLochlin The Audubon Society of Omaha =
http://audubon-omaha.org/ From: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com Hello Frank and all. I would like to make some comments which hopefully will clear some of the science behind what is being observed, and what is being said. If I am not coming across clearly, please let me know. I will also try to state the facts in as simple a way as I can (though this can be made mathematically exact if needed.) ... From: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com I enjoyed reading the responses that came from several other folks (to the group and to me personally.) I would like to acknowledge some of the responses. Judy: You are right, it is just like in our homes. It is a cumulative effect (like integration in calculus.) But keep in mind that heat goes from hot to cold, so when the box gets hot, hotter than ambient, heat will go out of the box on the colder sides (heat goes in on the sunny side, out on the shady side.) In the PM, heat goes in on the west side, box gets hotter than ambient, heat leaves the box on the east side. Just like our houses, nestboxes are vented under the roof. Also heat rises, so the venting right under the roof is quite effective in removing the heat from the mid-day sun. Shade provided by overhangs allows the shade to continue for some time in the after noon. This is why when Bruce Burdett and I designed a "shade roof" we made one on top, and one on the west side of the nestbox! I have used these, and they make quite a difference. The discussion by KK is right on the nose. Nothing beats good observation and common sense. And, as JimMcL said, one should use the house that works best for the area. I would not be surprised if KK lived in MN, he may be using Peterson boxes. Interestingly, Gilbertson who lives in a cold area and was a close friend of the late Peterson has successfully used PVC boxes which are not as well insulated. The motto is: if it works, use it. Of course one needs to monitor frequently to verify the health and number of birds fledged. JimMcL's testing many box designs is a good idea. This season
I will be testing Linda Violett's mansions in four locations
around our house (total of six "mansions.") Since
these are visible from our house, I can monitor what goes on
closely, and will report the results to Linda. Linda has successfully
tested them in the West on WEBL. I am looking forward to doing
this experiment. At a later date I hope to test some of the
Y and T designs by Fred Yeager from Ohio, but first I'd give
Fred a chance to test them in OH. Fred, don't forget to let
us know the results... Fawzi Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:49:58 EDT Just an idea to pass along. When we had a heat wave last year, I dug out some scraps of the hard blue foam insulation saved from siding our house. (So now you know, I'm a pack rat.) I cut them with enough to overhang (if cutting was needed) and used an assortmant of duct tape, bungee cords, and baling twine to fasten them on the existing roofs. Nothing fancy--I had to work fast because I was leaving the next day for England. However, two houses were checked by the landowner, and the birds (EABL and TRES) showed no fear; the others appeared to have fledged normally when I got back 10 days later. Rhonda Watts Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:28:20 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA I ditto Rhonda with being a pack rat. What else does one do
off nesting season? Within the last couple months I found some
huge white boxes and now have about 20 very large (white) cardboard
shade roofs ready to go. (Of course I probably will only need
about 10 at the very most.... - but that is my pack rat nature
coming out!) Rwatts wrote: Just an idea to pass along. When we had a heat wave last year,
I dug Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:43:54 -0800 (PST) Hello friends, Even though refilled my mealworm feeder full of large mealies everyday, they went untouched for the past 7 days. A significant cold spell had sent the Blues packin' for greener pastures I thought. Low and behold, the temperature reached the low 60's today in southeastern Illinois. Upon inspection of my mealworm feeder today at lunchtime, the mealies were all gone. What I don't know yet is if the Blues have returned or a lucky Starling happened upon the feeder. I will monitor the situation... As for the discussion on roofs: I have my own nestbox design. The roof overhangs a minimum of 6 inches on the front and both sides. The nestbox was designed this way so that if a predator was to get on top of the box, the critter would have to reach a minimum of 6" to even touch the outside of the bird entrance hole. This large overhang keeps direct sun off of the box. The rear wall, which is exposed to direct sunlight, is actually a 2" X 4" piece of wood. Therefore, the sun exposed wall is 1 1/2" thick. Alot of insulation value in wood that thick. Of course, the nestbox design has very generous venting/ventilation. I also try to use shade from trees when considering a potential location for a nestbox. If I could find the time to figure out how to do it, I'd provide the nestbox design to this group. Here's hoping for some leisure time. Bob Sitarski a.k.a. The Doctor Jackson county Indiana/Clay county Illinois Nestbox & Heat Part 2 |
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