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Nestbox Guards (Part 4)In addition to messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: Predators and Problems On The Bluebird Trail Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:43:32 -0500 Hi All, I am forwarding this question to the list in the hope that someone may have suggestions. Please send responses to the list and I will forward them on to her. Thanks, Tina Phillips Hi there, Tina Phillips (607)254-2482 From: Greg Jenkins GJenkins"at"NASHOLD.COM I am fairly new at this, but I have been researching and still cannot feel comfortable with some things. A few nights ago my bluebird box was subject to a cat attack, somehow both birds are alive and the eggs unharmed. I went on the internet and ordered a predator guard that extends the hole to keep from cats reaching into the box. When I installed yesterday evening, the bluebirds never went into the box after about an hour of watching the box. The male bluebird flew to the hole opening twice, checked it out, then flew away. I got nervous that I was affecting the incubation cycle, so I promptly removed the guard. I did not continue to continuously watch the box but I check on it several times, and never saw a bird in the box. How long is too long for the eggs to sit in the box with no bird in the nest, and could I have chased them away? I did not see any birds this morning, though I was only passing by putting some mealworms out on my way to work. Should I be concerned? I have to protect them from future cat attacks(I live in a neighborhood with many roaming cats, unfortunately), and every morning I wake up concerned that another attack may have happened. What does anyone know about these hole extenders? Good or bad. Yesterday I ordered a Noel Guard off of the NABS website. Hopefully I can get it before anymore cats wonder by. And maybe have better success with the bluebirds going in the box. Any information would be very helpful. Greg Jenkins Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:27:22 -0500 Do you know whether the female has actually started incubating the eggs yet? When she is laying the eggs she lays one a day and then leaves the nest. She doesn't start incubating them until all are laid, and sometimes waits several days before starting. Once she starts incubating she is on them most of the time, except to go catch herself some food. If you are sure incubation had started, you can very gently touch the eggs and feel if they are warm. How high is your nestbox above the ground? Raising it higher than a cat can jump (about 7 feet for some determined athletic cats) is one solution. You can make a telescoping pole to mount it on so you can lower it for easier monitoring. This would have to wait until the clutch has fledged--obviously this pair of birds are not very tolerant of changes to their nestbox. Kate Oschwald Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:01:37 -0400 I have a pair of bluebirds making a nest in a box in my front yard. This box in the past has been an interest of house sparrows and killed a pair of Chickadees in the box last year as well. My question is: even though it seems that the sparrows have lost and are no longer hanging around at the moment, should I consider putting a (tube like) baffle on the box and when would be the best time to do so ,so as not to scare them away? Thanks so much, Karen Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:41:37 -0400 Can Noel guards be purchased online? I bought one a couple of years ago but cannot remember where, and I need another for a newbie's nestbox in my neighborhood. Thanks for your help. Diane Seward From: "carol fitzpatrick" gdfitzmich"at"msn.com Chris, Carol Fitz Oxford, Michigan Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:36:05 -0400 on 7/13/02 9:18 AM, carol fitzpatrick at gdfitzmich"at"msn.com wrote: Everyone can see a picture of the predator guard and conduit pole "set up" on the Virginia Bluebird Society's web page: geocities.com/virginiabluebirds We highly recommend the snake guard and if the raccoon gets past that, we use the Noel guard too. The cavity nesters use it as a front porch and also to store the nest building materials when the supply exceeds the demand. ;-) Barbara Chambers Chris, I've never tried the wire mesh guard to prevent predators from reaching in but I've read mixed reviews... From: "Dan Hanan" danhan7"at"earthlink.net Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:46:47 EDT [Note from webmaster: Also see Problems with Snakes on the Bluebird Trail] From: TonyTrz"at"aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 02:29:49 -0400 on 7/17/02 12:44 AM, Dan Hanan at danhan7"at"earthlink.net wrote: A fast and easy way for me to make a snake guard is to use
an upside-down, 5 gallon plastic paint bucket hung beneath the
Bluebird box and around the mounting pole.... This sounds good to me as I have had recent problems with both racoons and snakes. I have been experimenting with "hanging" stovepipe baffles fitted with 7x7 pieces of wood over the top to discourage both coons and snakes. The plastic bucket sounds like a much simpler and less expensive way to solve both problems. Instead of the two blocks of wood clamped to the pole, I've been using "U" bolts. One U bolt fastened to the pole provides plenty of strength for my contraptions and would do the job for a bucket also. More hardware to buy and carry but less muss and fuss, I believe. Thanks for the bucket idea. Larry VanZalen From: "Burnham, Barbara" Barbara.Burnham"at"ssa.gov Sarah, Barbara Burnham From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Sarah was asking about the birds accepting the PVC entrance hole guards. It depends entirely on the individual nesting birds! Adding the wire Noel entrance hole guard or Don Hutchings PVC guard is drastically changing the original nestbox! Historically entrance hole guards have been made of solid wood, wire, sheetmetal and PVC ETC. and added to many different types of nestboxes for many different species of cavity nesters. Bluebirds are more accepting of nestbox changes than some of the other species like tufted titmice. In this area bluebirds readily accept the PVC entrance hole guards. There are two schools of thoughts on guards, solid ones keep the bluebird from being observed by a predator in waiting as it leaves the entrance to the box and hops out to the large opening whereas the wire or commercial guards allow the predators to see the bluebird before it can get out of the box. Solid guards also prevent the bluebird from seeing in all directions while in the guard. Wire guards have caught the leg bands of improperly banded birds and monitors have found them dead in the guards. Where livestock is in the same pasture with nestboxes, on occasion wire guards have been flattened by them rubbing the boxes and have trapped birds in the box or prevented adults from feeding the young and losses have occurred. The PVC guards were adapted with these losses in mind since we have mostly range land in this area and if a cow gets rough with the PVC guard it will break away from the box. I have tried twice to send a post on entrance hole guards and pole baffles this past week and both went off into cyber space. I will break it up into two parts to see if it can follow this post. KK From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas In the book "The Bluebird Monitor's Guide" we discuss the use of different guards to add to the front of a nestbox to increase the distance a raccoon/cat/possum/hawk/magpie ETC. needs to be able to overcome to reach the contents. Remember that the young birds often will help the predator by offering themselves to the predator by even reaching OUT OF THE BOX and actually begging for food from them!!! They have to learn that "strangers" are dangerous and they do this often by becoming a meal first! Wire "tubes" Noel guards and PVC pipe extensions are EMERGENCY use only UNTIL you can get a predator proof pole installed. I just got a call from a bluebird monitor saying a raccoon had reached through a 6" deep PVC guard and through a one inch thick wood box front and got the babies out of a box that was 7&1/2" deep with a three inch deep nest in the box! WARNING! I wrote the following to be an amusing comparison between bird predators and sci-fi human predators but it turned out NOT to be funny and is more along the lines of a horror story like the new Mel Gibson movie which has the child waking up Mel from a sound sleep and saying at one point in the middle of the night "There is a MONSTER outside my bedroom door!!!! Can I have a glass of water???" Most experts say that birds don't have human emotions but they do show signs of pure TERROR when a predator is approaching. If these birds are nesting in our boxes we should make every effort to protect them from known predators! The above is part A and Part B to follow later if this goes through. KK From: "Randy Jones" randyj"at"enter.net Two options: 1) get a four-foot lengh to 4" diameter (or larger) stove pipe. It comes flat, so you can "form" it into a pipe around the pipe that supports your nestbox. From holes drilled in one end before you do this, attach wires and hang from screws in the bottom of your nestbox. Plug the open end at the top with old screen wire or hardware cloth, and you're in business. 2) Prepare a two-feet lengh of 4" diameter PVC drainpipe by drilling a hole (forstner bit) in the center of a cap which fits the drainpipe, and attaching the cap to the drainpipe. Put a radiator hose-clamp around your conduit at the point just below where the bottom of your nestbox rests when it is mounted on the conduit. Now remove the nestbox from the conduit, drop the drainpipe (predator guard) over the conduit so that the cap of the drainpipe rests on the clamp, and reattach the nestbox. If you are prepared, you can put it up in under two minutes, and the birds will not be bothered at all. Good luck. Incidentally, I would choose the second option if there is a clutch in the nest at the time. Randy Jones Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Dan, Dan Sparks Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 05:18:47 -0400 larry... From: "paul kilduff" plkldf"at"hotmail.com Just quick word about tubular guards designed to deter climbing predators: At beginning of season I installed numerous 4" PVC guards
on existing U-post mounts. At first I was using the plastic
caps that are available in the PVC Meanwhile, it seems every one I topped with solid plastic has wasps or yellowjackets in the tube, a dangerous thing for monitors. Even some 4" PVC with hardware cloth has gotten wasps/hornets inside.... I've gone to 8" stovepipe (more ecologically friendly than PVC, BTW - do search for "blue vinyl" for more info), which I find easier to retrofit since you don't have to slide it over the box, but just put it on from the side and then close the seams together, although you do have to cut a channel in the hardware cloth to slide it on from the side. Don't know yet if stovepipe is less attractive to wasps/hornets than PVC. best, From: "D. H. Snook" dhsnook"at"sssnet.com The 4" diameter PVC pipe, 2' long is in my opinion the most effective. The pipe should be waxed with 2 coats of Kit Wax (carnuba) before it is installed and each spring with one coat after you clean the dirt off that has accumulated during the winter. I use a 4" PVC cap with a hole drilled in the center just big enough to fit the post. A hole saw on an electric drill makes the hole with no problem. Since I use a 6' U channel post, I plug the gap with Reynold's heavy duty aluminum foil to keep snakes and mice out of the box. As Paul mentioned, wasps will nest inside of the guard at times. A shot of Prestone car starter fluid takes care of them, but avoid if there are nestlings in the box. Of great importance is having the guard wobble at the bottom. You can suspend the top with pipe strap. All of my boxes (54) are in areas where there are predators of all kind, raccoons, snakes, feral cats, etc. I have never lost an egg, bird or nestling in my entire 5 years of managing my trail(s) from ground predators. D. H. Snook/Sondra R. Snook From: "Fawzi P. Emad" femad"at"comcast.net Paul, I use the 8"x2' stove pipe guards, and I use a solid circular piece of sheet metal (8" diameter) which I rivet to the three tabs made at the top of the pipe. Almost every one of them has a wasp/hornet nest, but it is under the box, inside the stove pipe and does not seem to bother the birds or the monitor (myself.) One time the "monitor" made the mistake of spraying the wasp nest in the daytime with an insect spray. Some of the wasps were flying about, one stung my eyelid... quite painful and nasty looking for a while. I no longer spray them in the daytime, and unless there is a need, I don't spray them at all. Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 05:44:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Phil Kenny" philkenny1"at"cox.net I have used PVC pipe as a "stovepipe" style predator guard with great success this year, too. I also have Noel guards over all boxes, 14 in all. One thing I have to add: I suspend the pipe using a wooden dowel. I drilled a hole thru the pole on which the box is mounted at the right height and cut a length of wooden dowel to fit in the PVC cap. I put the dowel thru the pole and slide the PVC over the dowel. It is very wobbly and easy to do. Phil Kenny I use a 4" PVC cap with a hole drilled in the center just big enough to fit the post. A hole saw on an electric drill makes the hole with no problem. Since I use a 6' U channel post, I plug the gap with Reynold's heavy duty aluminum foil to keep snakes and mice out of the box. As Paul mentioned, wasps will nest inside of the guard at times. A shot of Prestone car starter fluid takes care of them, but avoid if there are nestlings in the box. Of great importance is having the guard wobble at the bottom. You can suspend the top with pipe strap. All of my boxes (54) are in areas where there are predators of all kind, raccoons, snakes, feral cats, etc. I have never lost an egg, bird or nestling in my entire 5 years of managing my trail(s) from ground predators. D. H. Snook/Sondra R. Snook From: "Chris Turnbow" cturnbow"at"midsouth.rr.com I put predator guards on my BB boxes, the kind that extend out from the entrance hole. I will keep a careful watch, but I am hoping this will be effective. Shouldn't that take care of starling problems?! Thanks! Talia From: "Fawzi P. Emad" femad"at"comcast.net Hi Talia. The starlings are not a problem if the size of the hole is 1.5" or 1-9/16". Sometimes we add another thickness of wood to make the entrance longer. This helps a little. But it does not help much against snakes or other ground predators. If you use a wire-mesh type of extension, make sure it is sturdy otherwise coons can easily take it apart. It remains true in my mind that one of the best predator guards against ground predators is that invented by Ron Kingston... See it at: http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/rk1.htm Fawzi Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 12:13:41 -0800 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Talia, even though most starlings don't seem to be able to enter 1.5" holes (as Fawzi mentioned), some people have reported seeing them squeeze through 1 9/16" holes under extreme circumstances such as being trapped in a box with a 1 9/16" hole and they have no choice but to attempt to squeeze through the hole to escape. Under normal circumstances, I'm with Fawzi that 1 9/16" holes should prevent starlings from nesting. And, even though 1.5" or 1 9/16" holes should keep starlings from entering the box, it does not prevent starlings from reaching into the box and pulling out its contents. When I first started using larger boxes, something was emptying the contents of active boxes by reaching in and dumping naked nestlings on the ground. The nestlings were not being eaten, just discarded. At the time, I was using deeper boxes with 7.5" hole-to-floor drops and since the culprit hadn't actually been identified, I asked advice from the List. My area coordinator fingered starlings as the most likely problem and KK, as usual, came forward with excellent background supporting that possibility when other Listers were skeptical that starlings would have the "reach" to pull out nestlings. No one had a solution and Dean Sheldon said there was no way to fight it and to remove the box. Bluebird parents of the failing nest would eat mealworms but they would not feed the two survivors still in the nestbox. (The weakened survivors were eventually rescued.) Thank goodness I was too busy at the time to take Dean's advice. When I returned to take down the box, a new nest was being built so I added a simple wooden face guard over the holes. The combination of 7.5" hole-to-floor depths with wooden face guards solved the starling problem. Scroll halfway down the following web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~lviolett/ And, if you want to prevent other avian predators (such as hawks) from reaching into your boxes, you should increase the hole-to-floor depth to 8.5" along with the add wooden face guards; or add hole extenders as Fawzi suggested. From: "Chris Turnbow" cturnbow"at"midsouth.rr.com I didn't get an answer on this question, thought I would try again. I am only talking about entrance hole guards, not other kinds of guards. Starlings and other things reach into nestboxes disturbing birds. Presumably entrance hole guards will deter starlings from reaching into BB houses. Someone on this web said, "It will cure the starling problem and the bluebird problem, too." Now what does that mean?? Will entrance hole guards hinder BBs from using the nestbox? Need to know! Thanks!! Talia From: "Fawzi P. Emad" femad"at"comcast.net All my "mansions" (large nestboxes with two entrance holes by Linda V.) have a double thickness of wood making the entrance twice as long as normal. If this is the type of guard you mean, then there is no problem for the Bluebirds. There are other (plastic or metal mesh) guards that make the entrance much longer. Even these do not seem to affect the Bluebirds, though I have no first hand experience with such guards myself. (I read someplace that in strong winds the BB has some problem going through the tunnel/mesh into the entrance hole.) Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland From: "Bruce Burdett" blueburd"at"tds.net Fawzi, C. Turnbow,et al, In fairness, though, I must add that I have almost zero ineterference from either Starlings or Rat Finches. (HOSP). I must be just lucky up here, in that all my houses are in rural or semi-rural settings, - fields, meadows, pastures, or large lawns. I know that some experts take a dim view of these entrance blocks, and yet, and yet,...whatever works is good, right? Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: klubea"at"comcast.net I Live in the East and i'am so used to having bluebird houses
with predator guards that its hard for me to consider using
anything else.(gilwood-Troyer etc) To me using a box without
a guard is asking for trouble. My problem is i do not want to
test it not for the sake of the birds.I have so many misc birds
flying around would not want to make it easy for them to peak
in. Its a shame as i would love to try other boxes without guards.
What is one to do? Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:34:14 -0700 (PDT) We fledged 22 bluebirds from a newly established trail last year on a golf course here in southwestern Ontario, not too far from Point Pelee. I hope for even more this year, as this is a really good site, and as of May 7th I had 5 babies, 10 eggs, and 1 additional nest ready for eggs. My question relates to Noel guards I installed last year on another trail which has tree swallows. I made these guards initially to specifications (ie. projection of 5" from front of nestbox), and still experienced predation. I made additional Noel guards with a 7" projection. This did not deter the birds at all, but I still had predation - nests a little disturbed, babies gone. Some guards had been bent. Any idea what could do this? I thought Noel guards were supposed to be extremely effective against raccoons, cats, and such, especially with a 7" projection ! On the trail with bluebirds, I installed Noel guards last year on the houses with BB's. I did not remove these guards at end of season, as is recommended, and yet two of my four BB nests are in houses with Noel guards ! Thanks for any suggestions you can give. Mary From: "Phil Kenny" philkenny1"at"cox.net Mary, From: "Mary Ellen & Mel Bolt" mellen"at"sssnet.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 05:58:28 -0700 (PDT) This spring, after experiencing the loss of many of our TS
eggs and nestlings by snakes, I put Kingston style stovepipe
baffles on 20 boxes which had young/eggs, and none of these
were subsequently raided. I used 7" diameter stovepipe,
even though I had also seen recommendations for 8". My
choice was based mostly on the fact that the PMCA Purple Martin
forum, as well several other sites, showed in their archives
an illustration by Julie Zickefoose of Ron Kingston's baffle
design, in which 7" diameter stovepipe was specified. Since a winter project will be to make at least 30 more of
these, I would like other folks' input on diameter, for the
optimum protection against both snakes and raccoons. I have
experienced both at our golf course, but the 7" diameter
stopped both, admittedly based on only one spring's experience.
Thanks, From: "Fawzi P. Emad" femad"at"comcast.net I am sure that Ron Kingston prefers the 8" size and the booklet by Julie Zickefoose (Enjoying Bluebirds More) on page 20 states the size as 36"x8" (which is the right size,) then on page 21, last paragraph it changes the size to "24-inch section of galvanized stovepipe, 7 inches in diameter." This is where the 7" appears, the better size is 8" on page 20. To confirm this, please go to the web page written by Ron Kingston himself (from "Sialia," Quarterly Journal (Spring 1990) of the North American Bluebird Society.) http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/rk1.htm Note the last paragraph added by request of Ron Kingston which reads in part: "Ron Kingston asked that I change the following portions of the text: the recommended size of stove pipe be 8 in or larger..." Yes, I have sometimes used the 7" size (because Home Depot
was out of the 8" and I needed it right away, but our snakes
are small, rarely exceeding 5', Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland From: "Lawrence Herbert"
lherbert"at"4state.com From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com
It is a guard made from hardware cloth, 3 1/2 " wide, 5 1/2" tall, and 5 " deep.The vertical sides extend a half inch deeper and are stapled to the front of the nestbox hole. I used a wooden guard this year. It is the first time I have ever had need for it. Eggs were disappearing and the day I installed it, the problem was corrected. I am sure it was another bird taking them. The Noel guard or a long pvc pipe concept guard is said to be more effective against raccoons, cats, etc. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA. Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society From: L Colangelo, lcolangelo"at"verizon.net Hello all; I have many boxes without predator guards around the holes and last year had starlings trying to chip away at the holes to try to enlarge them. (These boxes were donated to me.) As my winter project I'd like to put guards on them but there's about 15 boxes in all so it can't be too costly. Any good ideas on adding predator guards to the holes of existing boxes? From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com I am installing wooden guards on most of my 17 nestboxes this year. My husband and son plant corn now instead of cotton and it draws the Crows by the hundreds. I had to install some last season because eggs were missing. When I put the guard on, it stopped. I strongly suspect it was the work of the Crows, since I don't have House Sparrows or Starlings and have not had problems like this before. I saw a picture of a guard on a nestbox and it was the width of the front of the nestbox and the length was just below the hole. My husband can cut it out and drill a hole the proper size. I will then take it and screw it on to fit over the existing hole. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA. Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society From: KimMarie Markel, auroramn"at"sysr.com I'm curious about what others are using for predator guard depth/thickness. We don't have HOSP or EUST, but there are plenty of crows around (and I still think crows are responsible for the loss of 5 healthy ready-to-fledge nestlings last year - there was no guard on the box). Currently our guards are in a similar position to what Evelyn has described and they are 3/4" inch, but are others using 1" or deeper/thicker? Thoughts and opinions on this? kimmarie :) Buffalo/Varysburg, Western NY From: Bruce Burdett, blueburd"at"tds.net L. Colangelo, et al All my houses (NABS) are made of 7/8" pine stock, NOT the more standard 3/4". It makes for a very sturdy house, with less likelihood of warping. They all have wooden entrance blocks, which are also made of 7/8" stock, thus the entrance "tunnel" is a full 1 3/4" deep. This deeper tunnel provides an effective barrier against most predators trying to reach in. I get this pine stock from a local sawmill which stocks it regularly, planed on one side only. It's #2 pine, but all the knots are sound, and it's very useful lumber for other purposes around the place. For my taste, 3/4" stock makes a fairly flimsy house; but to each his own. Bruce Burdett, SW NH. From: Linda Violett, lviolett"at"earthlink.net Kim Marie, if you have a copy of the Bluebird Monitor's Guide, there are photos showing various predator guards. The wooden face guards put over the holes of my boxes are used for deterring hawks, crows, jays and starlings from reaching into boxes. The face guards are about 3/4" thick over a 3/4" thick box face. The thickness of the guards vary because some Bluebirds seem to have difficulty entering 1.5" (box face plus guard) and I'm still experimenting. The ideal face guard for my trail has not yet been worked out but "Construction" notes can be viewed at: http://home.earthlink.net/~lviolett/construction.html (scroll toward the bottom for the notes and photos on guards): For boxes with older flat guards or guards with greater thickness toward the top of the entrance holes, an extra toehold piece is being added below the holes. A photo of that modification can be seen in the above "Construction" link. A similar exterior toehold can be seen on Malinda Mastako's box shown in the Bluebird Monitor's Guide, page 34 along with her observation notes. Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif.
Hi Linda, you wrote: "For boxes with older flat guards or guards with greater thickness toward the top of the entrance holes, an extra toehold piece is being added below the holes. A photo of that modification can be seen in the above "Construction" link. A similar exterior toehold can be seen on Malinda Mastako's box shown in the Bluebird Monitor's Guide, page 34 along with her observation notes." The practice of placing perches on nestboxes is discouraged by most birding organizations. It seems a "Toehold" serves the same purpose as a perch. Eastern Bluebirds can easily perch on the front of a nestbox with or without "toeholds", especially if made from rough cut lumber as is recommended by Cornell Lab of Ornithology.. Of the hundreds of Eastern Bluebirds, Chickadees, Tufted Titmice, Red-Headed Woodpeckers, Brown-Headed Nuthatches, Wrens etc, I have observed, every single one has successfully landed on the front of the Chalet nestbox the first time in a firm positive manner. In no instances have they ever seemed to slip, fumble or had to try a second time to make a positive firm perch on the front of the box. In my opinion, anyone observing an eastern bluebird having difficulty perching on the front of a nest box in general, or on the front of a Chalet nestbox made from rough cut lumber and with a thick wood block predator guard in particular, is almost certainly observing a handicapped bird. From: Tony Berg, w1vah"at"yahoo.com I believe what you are looking for is a hole guard, not a predator guard. Aluminum entrance guards are available for $1.00 each (postpaid, minimum order of 10) from: Homes for Bluebirds, Inc. 5714 Finch Nursery Lane Bailey, NC 27807 The guards are 3" x 3" and painted brown, with a ! 5/8" hole, to allow clearance around a 1 9/16" or 1 1/2" hole. I drill 4 holes in them and mount them with aluminum tacks. There is a photo on page 119 of "The Bluebird Monitor's Guide" showing the ineffectiveness of a wooden block hole protector against a hungry racoon. I believe that the NABS does not recommmend a wooden block as a predator guard. Predator guards include the Noel guard and the Kingston baffle. Tony Berg Williamsburg, VA From: "Don Skinner" I am preparing to build two Peterson style bluebird houses which I will erect in central Kansas. I don't know how far I need to go with predator protection. When I look at the bluebird houses in my local park here near Kansas City, they all have a wire screen type thing that extends out from the nest hole. Yet none of the plans I've looked at for ANY houses have that protective feature. Is it a good idea to add that anyway, or is it just necessary in some areas? Don Skinner Kansas City From: Bruce Burdett, blueburd"at"tds.net Don, et al, The protective device you're seeing on the houses is probably the one made of 1/2" or 1/4" hardware cloth (screen). It has a name, but I can't think of it. Its purpose is to keep out climbing predators, like cats and 'coons. I use the wooden block anti-predator device myself, and it works fine where I am. I know that some people don't like it, however. There are a lot of conflicting opinions about both these devices. If you have no problem with these predators where you are, then you probably don't need either the metal OR the wooden device. I put them on my houses as a precaution, and because they're so easy and cheap to make, to install, and to replace when they're damaged. I know that a lot of the store-boughten houses have no device of any kind. Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Don Skinner, deskinner"at"kc.rr.com I'm planning to install a 4 inch diameter PVC pipe (two feet long) snake and raccoon guard on my first-ever bluebird houses, but the thought occurred to me that I could be creating a problem. These birdhouses are going on top of a hill in the Midwest where there's plenty of wind. Since I'm making the guard a bit loose so it'll move when anything tries to climb it, it's going to be banging into the pole when the wind blows. Seems to me that would scare off any potential nesters as well as possibly damaging any eggs. Am I doing this wrong? Don Skinner, Leawood, KS From: Kate Arnold, bbnestbox"at"1starnet.com Don, I asked the same question years ago, and was told it would not bother them. Judging by the fledge rates from people who use such guards or the Kingston guard on all nestboxes they install, I don't think it's a real problem. ...part of the effectiveness of such guards is the fact that they are loose. This makes it more difficult for raccoons and cats to climb on them. Kate Arnold Paris, TX 100 mi NE of Dallas 33.6853N 95.6293W From: Linda Violett, lviolett"at"earthlink.net I don't use post/pipe guards because my boxes hang from tree branches, but you might experiment with reducing the vibration and noise of the moveable guard by adding insulation strips, pads, etc. to the guard and/or post. From: Dottie Roseboom, rosedot"at"mtco.com I am installing a 17' telescopic pole for my bluebird box. Will it still need a predator guard? Here in central Illinois our snakes don't grow as long as the ones in Fla. I was wondering if the raccoons & snakes would climb that high. Thanks. Dottie From: BILL REED For the first time, I have a pair of blues building a nest in one of my boxes! Too exciting. They seem to progressing fine while chasing off chickadees which also seem to find the same box to their liking. My question is... the box is mounted on a pole 8-9 feet high. I need to grease the pole to help keep predators out but am looking for a recommendation as to what type of grease to use. I have sprayed silicone on the poles and it keep the squirrels from making it up the pole but it washes off in the rain. I know someone in this group has done the research :>) Thank you. -bill From: John Schuster Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Nestbox question ... The best grease to use is not grease, but synthetics. Grease is made out of petroleum which tends to dry out and or cake. Synthetics oils are made from plants and they do not cake or dry out like petroleum based grease products. In my opinion, the best lubricant is either STP Oil Treatment or AMSOIL for lubricating your mounting poles. John Schuster ... From: Larry A Broadbent, rockets"at" mnsi.net Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Nestbox question Bill, congratulations on getting your first pair of Bluebirds to nest. You can use axel grease, or use Vaseline and put a predator guard on your pole as well. Your 8 - 9' height is great. Having nestboxes at one's eye level is for easy monitoring, not necessarily the best choice for the Bluebirds. But most monitors choose to mount their nestboxes for their personal eye level. Cats can jump 5 to 6 feet. Most of my boxes are mounted 5 1/2' or higher. Many are mounted 8' to 9' on sturdy 1 1/4" Galvanized fence poles. Regards, Larry A Broadbent From: Bruce Burdett In your Bluebird Monitor's Guide you can see houses with entrance blocks attached on pages 45 and 28. The theory is that nuisance critters have to reach in twice as far to get at the birds and eggs inside. (Some people think they work; some think they don't.) I like them also because when the hole gets enlarged by chewing or pecking, all I have to do is nail on a new block with its 1 1/2" hole, a 30-second repair job Bruce Burdett, SW NH. [Note from webmaster: in response to an inquiry as to whether entrance blocks deter tree swallows, Bruce replied: "I have never seen any indication that the entrance-hole blocks deter either Tree Swallows or Bluebirds. They both go in and out with no difficulty or hesitation, as if the blocks were not there at all."] From: Joe Baker [mailto:rok90"at"adelphia.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:25 AM Subject: How important is a hole predator guard? As a newcomer to bluebirding I would appreciate comments concerning the need for a hole predator guard. The type of guard I am referring to is the square piece of wood, or whatever, mounted at the hole. All the BB nest box plans I have seen on the web do not show such a guard, including the plans by the NABS. Thanks to all for your opinions. Joe SW Virginia From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 9:49 AM Subject: Re: How important is a hole predator guard? Joe, et al, The answer to your question depends on whom you ask. Some people believe that entrance blocks help, and use them routinely. I put them on all my houses. In my various Bluebird books I see that some photos show them and some don't. Their purpose is to prevent or discourage predators from reaching into the nest cavity through the longer "tunnel." It helps, of course, to have a good, deep box so that the eggs and chicks are well below the hole, but that's a good idea anyway.. I also like them because they make it easier to repair gnawing/pecking damage around the hole. I simply pry off the gnawed block and pop on a new replacement, - a 45-second repair. I always have a few spare blocks in the car, with 3 small galvanized nails already started. On the other hand, I gather that some knowledgeable folks neither use them nor recommend them. I believe that NABS has officially spoken against them, saying that they do not deter certain determined and long-armed predators. In the final analysis, I don't believe that they can do any HARM. The Bluebirds and Tree Swallows (my chief tenants)largely ignore them and are not in the least frightened or deterred. Lord knows they're easy enough to make. (Note: I cut all my entrance holes with a sharp Forstner Bit, so the edges of the cut, inside and out, are clean, smooth and harmless to the birds' feathers.) So, Joe, decide for yourself. Maybe someone on this List will make a strong case AGAINST entrance blocks, and you can weigh their opinions against mine. The guards made of hardware cloth (galvanized screening) are another matter altogether, and another discussion. Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: crystal hill [mailto:crystaljhill"at"msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:43 AM Subject: Re: How important is a hole predator guard? Hi, all my boxes have them (came with them already mounted), and the birds don't seem to mind.......Now I don't know if they would really make a difference if a predator tried to reach in...But like Bruce said I don't think they can hurt.......... Crystal - Social Circle, GA From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: How important is a hole predator guard? Haleya Priest Amherst MA Joe, I agree with Bruce's analysis of the use of predator blocks. One year I seemed to have a problem with “disappearing eggs” and put predator blocks on those boxes. It seemed to solve the problem. Whether that was the luck of the draw or not I will never know. I don't use them routinely, but I will use them if I think there might be a problem. And he is right, NABS didn't want us all to think that a predator block would keep out raccoons, which is why they stopped recommending them as a standard addition to a box. I agree, try them out and see if you like them or not. If you have lots of crows or starlings that try to get in the box to grab eggs – then the blocks are for you. Happy bluebirding! :-) H From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 12:04 PM Subject: Re: How important is a hole predator guard? & Noel guards Okay, Bruce, I'll be sucker-bait. What are your opinions on the Noel guards (if these are the screen guards that you are referring to)? Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central) NABS member From: Bruce
Burdett The guards made of hardware cloth (galvanized screening) are another matter altogether, and another discussion. Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 3:46 PM Subject: Re: How important is a hole predator guard? John, et al, Many people prefer to place the Noel Guards on, after the nest is completed, thinking that they would be more acceptable to the bluebird. Does anyone just leave them on the nestboxes year-round? Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central) NABS member From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net] From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor"at"msn.com] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:49 AM Subject: Noel guards and controversies The boxes on the trail I started to work on last year all had a "type" of Noel guard on them which were on the boxes year round. They were all smaller than the recommended size for Noel guards. When I rehabbed the trail I rebuilt and installed all of them for round use as they were previously. I had no previous experience with the Noel guards. So my question is the same as Dottie's regarding others' experience with leaving them on the boxes. So far I have not had any Bluebirds on the trail. But the boxes had other problems and I'm thinking if there were nest failures in the past that maybe it will take them time to return. Do my actions and thinking make sense? I've only been on Bluebird-L since last Fall and feel I've learned many things as a result - I've certainly had some interesting reading! The things I remember best are those which have generated controversy. I can't imagine I'll ever approach a box in the future without realizing the responsibilities I have and the need to be as informed as possible. It will also be a reminder to myself that I am emotional and need to keep those emotions in check so I don't do something irrational. Also, I enjoy reading Bluebird-L because I feel everyone participating really cares. They are trying to solve problems, understand situations, and learn the best way of doing what they are doing. Opinions and methods may vary but I doubt anyone is without a soul. Thanks for the help. Charlene Anchor, Illinois From: Kate Arnold [mailto:bbnestbox"at"1starnet.com] Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 3:06 PM Re: How important is a hole predator guard? Many nestbox builders advocate such a guard, since it makes for a thicker entrance--more difficult for some larger birds to stick their heads through to get at nestlings or eggs. When I add one to a nestbox (usually because the hole has been enlarged by a squirrel or woodpecker, I make it about 6" long. If you see bluebirds clinging to the front of a nestbox, you will notice that they seem to "brace" themselves with their tails. With a small box they cannot do this as easily. Kate Arnold Paris, TX From: DeaneC3"at"aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 6:40 AM Subject: help with Noel guard I carefully constructed a Noel guard (I'm new to bluebirds this year) and both the male and female seem confused and look all around on top, but aren't finding their way in. How long do I wait before giving up and removing it? There is a nest they've been working on for about 6 days, but no eggs yet. Thanks for your help, Deane in Bellingham, MA From: Tony Berg [mailto:w1vah"at"yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:59 AM Re: help with Noel guard Deane, I have 24 NABS-type nestboxes on my main trail. Over the winter, I added Noel-type guards to all of them. I make them 4" wide by 5-1/2" high by 5" deep, with 1/2" prongs sticking out at right angles. I thought that the guards would be off-putting for the bluebirds, but the initial results are that the bluebird occupancy rate is about the same, and there is less occupancy by other cavity nesters (chickadees, titmice, and nuthatches). Tony Berg Wiliamsburg, VA From: RJFandal"at"aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:57 AM Subject: Predator guards Have any of you tried the Hutchings type of guards or something similar? http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nestbox/dhpred.htm I would like to add something like this in addition to the baffles for additional protection. PLEASE let me know what is working for you. I think that since our land has not had nestboxes before, predators left them alone for a while this year, but now they are beginning to take notice and figure out ways to get to them (plus with the addition of hatchlings now, maybe they are being attracted to the boxes by new sounds). Thanks! Tammi Pearl River, LA PS How do you all figure out what is getting to your nestboxes? I have fur and feathers, but I have baffles. That's why I thought is was a cat, but many of you have said it was probably a 'coon. From: Kelley Family [mailto:herbsho"at"epcwc.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: Re: Predator guards How high is the top of your baffle? What is the diameter of your baffle? Is it fixed in place or allowed to shift? Common knowledge is that a raccoon can jump five feet and a cat seven feet. I say common because I have not personally observed such gymnastics. I suspect both numbers are based on exceptional jumpers and do not reflect the performance of an average animal. I am sure we will get some clarification. From: JOHN & BARBARA SIBIO [mailto:jsibio"at"comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: Predator guards I have a fourteen year old cat, overweight, with arthritis in her hips, and she can jump to the top of our six foot fence. Every cat in the neighborhood does this easily! I mount my nestboxes on eight foot poles, and once had a cat jump from the fence to the top of the nestbox, which was about six or seven feet away from the fence. He didn't do any damage, but it sure opened my eyes! We have raccoons scale our fence also. I haven't seen them do it, but I've seen them in the yard and I see their muddy paw prints on the fence. I just took four feral kittens to the animal shelter -- they were born in my yard in a stack of wood scraps, so a pregnant cat made it over our six foot fence! .... Barbara in Cloverdale, CA From: RJFandal"at"aol.com From: RJFandal"at"aol.com While in a building supply store today, I saw a gardening magazine that had a photo of a morning glory vine growing up a pole with a bluebird house on top of the pole. The vine seemed to be trained under & on the inside of a very apparent predator baffle. The vine could be seen climbing up the pole but not around the outside of the baffle. It appeared that the vine was kept trimmed away from the entrance hole of the house. I wondered if any of you have seen this or tried doing it. It made me wonder if it defeated the purpose of predator guards, but I really don't know enough about something like to this to know for sure. Since a lot of you have trails in parks, I thought maybe some of you have seen or tried this. I need the input of you experienced birders. Thanks! Tammi, Pearl River, LA From: Maynard R Sumner I do not think this is a good thing to do. It is defeating the purpose of the guard. Maynard Sumner, Flint, MI From: Kenny Kleinpeter [mailto:kpkmajk"at"cox.net] Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: RE: Growing vines on BB house pole Sounds like a Birds & Blooms kind of thing. The vine stem will continue to grow and thicken eventually allowing enough space for a snake to pass. It is incredible just how little a space these reptiles need to squeeze through. I say keep everything off of a nestbox pole but a predator baffle and, of course, a nestbox. From: Kelley Family [mailto:herbsho"at"epcwc.com] From: Kelley Family I am embarrassed to report that not all of my Bluebird houses are protected with baffles. We are having a great year with only one house unoccupied. I am starting to worry about safety. Yesterday, I found marks on an unprotected pole that indicated that a four legged something tried to climb the pole. So I would like to install baffles. My wife says that mom and pop will be upset and may even abandon the nest if I do. Yet I feel like if anything happens I will be guilty. The nestlings are about 5-8 days old. The change will amount to removing the house to lower the baffle down over the pole and then reinstalling the house. The poles are telescope from eight down to five feet and the boxes are attached with two brackets. Should take less than ten minutes. I would do it in the afternoon so hopefully mom and pop are out foraging for themselves. Any thoughts and or advice will be apprciated. Thanks From: Leah [mailto:lsollida"at"bellsouth.net]
DO IT - ASAP! The parents will NOT care one bit. You may see them hover initially at the nestbox because there is something different (the baffle) but it will not keep them from those babies. Their parental commitment is very strong and very few things will keep them away from their young (their own deaths, for instance, but NOT a baffle added to the pole). Predator baffles are so important (be sure it is sized to foil a raccoon), and you are incredibly lucky to have gotten by so far with no tragedies. Good for you that you intend to remedy the situation. In this instance - and ONLY in this instance - ignore your wife! Leah Solliday NE Florida From: Evelyn
Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] We have done it many times, no problem. You chances without the guards are greater. Evelyn From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] From: Kelley Family [mailto:herbsho"at"epcwc.com] From: Kerry Sweet [mailto:ksweet3450"at"yahoo.com] Hi all, I have several of my nest boxes in the pasture on utility poles, I have flashing wrapped around the pole under them for a predator guard. Then I have these very large utility poles maybe 2ft. in diameter at the bottom (BIG) they run in pairs and they are covered in this black creosote, more so at the base, like it maybe runs down to the bottom. I would like to add more nest boxes along this utility line. My question is: Do you think the creosote acts as a predator guard? I think no critter is going to get in that mess. I didn't seek permission from the utility company to use these poles and I'm not going to, they run through my property and until I'm told I can't I will use them, however the utility line continues along a back road out into the country and not all will be on my property so I will ask the land owner for permission if I have to cross their fence. It would make a great trail but I'm curious about the creosote?? Any advise?? Kerry in NE corner of Okla. From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Kerry, I'm not sure if a "mess" will always deter large snakes or determined racoons. I'm sure that others will have opinions on that. I'm wondering about the safety of the creosote for you & possibly the bluebirds. Depending upon what you mean by "creosote", it may be fairly toxic. If you decide to use the poles, I would definitely not drill into them (harmful to breathe the generated dust) and I would always wear the thick rubber "chemical" gloves when putting up nestboxes. Sorry to rain on your parade. Many of these chemicals are currently being banned. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: Amy Louise Marr [mailto:MARR_AMY_LOUISE"at"Lilly.com] From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net] I have been using wooden block predator guards (7/8" thick) for 14 years, and I've never known Bluebirds or Tree Swallows to be even slightly fazed by them. The houses themselves are also made of 7/8" stock, so the total length of the 'tunnel' is 1 3/4". The hole itself is the standard 1 1/2" in diameter. My guess is that your birds' hesitancy results from your having put on the block AFTER they (she) had built and laid eggs. It's the CHANGE that flusters them. Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 10:35 AM Subject: Re: trouble with EABL acceptance of wooden block house guard Yep...Bruce is right again. Bluebird, Tree and Violet Green Swallows have never been fazed by woodblock predator guards (here in our California vineyards) either. Just be patient and enjoy the Bluebirds. ... From: Joe Baker [mailto:rok90"at"adelphia.net] From: L Colangelo [mailto:lcolangelo"at"verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: blue jays Just curious--I've seen starlings reach into a BB nest box, but how would a Blue Jay go about raiding a BB nest inside a box? Since they aren't cavity nesters, doesn't seem like they'd be able to "hang on" properly to get in the box. Are they really a threat? From: dean
sheldon [mailto:seedbed"at"accnorwalk.com] From: "Mary
Ellen & Mel Bolt" <mellen"at"sssnet.com> From: Kelley
Family [mailto:herbsho"at"epcwc.com] From: Joe Baker [mailto:rok90"at"adelphia.net] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 10:52 AM Subject: A more predator-proof Noel guard. Hi all, I have never had a "big bird" approach or attempt to enter a standard size (3.5" X 5.5" X 6") Noel guard, but I have always wondered why the 3.5" width dimension was chosen, rather than a lesser dimension. Also wondering how the BB would react to a narrower guard, I set about building a guard with a 2.5" width. I have a nestbox with 5 eggs, and a previously-installed 3.5" wide Noel guard which I replaced with the 2.5" wide guard. The result? The female appeared not to notice the difference, as she entered the box in less than a minute after my departure. Both the male and the female come and go without a problem, using the same landing approach, and one-hop into the entrance hole, exactly as they did with the old guard. So....does anyone out there know the reason why the 3.5" dimension was chosen to be the standard, rather than a lesser dimension? Thanks, all. Joe Baker SW VA. From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Jim Noel of Ashland, Illinois designed the wire guard for the shallow Dick Peterson nestbox. It originally was designed to retrofit existing Peterson nestboxes by stapling the wire directly to the edges of the nestbox door which is 3&1/2" wide. This was primarily a cat/coon guard and worked very well for a while. I believe today that most raccoons can reach into and through these original shallow guards and get the eggs and young from shallow nestboxes. When the guard seemed to work well initially on the Peterson nestbox then others changed the design and using the same size mounted it to a 3/4" thick block of wood and attached this to regular nestboxes with wider fronts. As these began failing then the guards were changed to leaving the leading edge of the 1/2" hardware cloth with "spiked" ends sticking out and then coming back and sharpening the spikes with a grinder so as to impale the coon in his armpits as he reached into the nestboxes. These proved dangerous to the birds so the spikes were then bent at right angles to the guard facing out in another version of the guard. Depth of the guard and width of the guard has varied over the years in different inventors hands. I have seen "toilet paper roll" sized wire guards added to boxes. What works well in your yard for years may fail in one night in mine! Remember that these inventions and adaptations were often worked on for a couple of years and then written up in periodical journals that might NEVER be tested or commented on by the resident "bluebird" expert. Today almost instantaneously with the use of the now 15 year old World Wide Web we can test or talk about these "new" adaptations to the "Noel" guard and not wait for the old Quarterly Journal of NABS to make room for this in the question/answer section! Imagine being the editor and taking all of the questions that come to this list for three months and then choose three to answer! Anyway evaluate what you want a guard to do and then decide if it will stop the predator. To test for raccoons I would build a test box near a creek or lake and place dog food inside the box and when raccoons begin feeding I would begin to add guards to see how far down they can remove the food. I did this years ago and taught families of coons to raid my nestboxes here at my house! I believe I found that the coons in my yard could reach 8 inches down into the bottom of a nestbox.KK From: Tyler Mann [mailto:t_mann05"at"hotmail.com] does anyone know if there is a predator guard for the gilbertson style bluebird box or can i get a link to a site? thanks tyler From: Haleya Priest [mailto:mablue"at"gis.net] You can use any pole baffle. You'll find those in the bluebird Monitor's Book. :-) H From: Cher [mailto:bluebirdnut"at"a-znet.com] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:42 AM To: Bluebird L-mailing list Subject: Painted predator baffles? I remember somewhere seeing photos of a decorative paint job on a stovepipe predator baffle. Anyone else remember that, or have photos of one? Cher From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] I have wondered about that and if it would make it harder for the snake to climb the seam of the stovepipe like we have seen in photos passed around. Phil suspected this too on his trail. Evelyn From: KCBSP"at"aol.com [mailto:KCBSP"at"aol.com] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 6:19 PM To: emcooper"at"bayou.com; bluebirdnut"at"a-znet.com; Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu Subject: Re: Painted predator baffles? Really what is the purpose of a decorative predator guard? Guess I'm just a tad sarcastic... and perhaps a little silly. I think it needs to be painted in decor for the predator... What was on it? Kathy From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] I didn't place the first post about a painted baffle, but since you asked the purpose of one I will say that I was asked by a person at a state park where we have a trail if they could paint the baffle. She thought the stovepipe like it is was ugly. I asked about it on the list and some said don't paint it thinking it could gather grit more easily and snakes might get past it. However, I do read in "The Bluebird Monitor' Guide" that it is fine to paint them. Evelyn From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Many places (Menards, Lowes, etc) are now selling black stovepipe that is not quite so obtrusive on the pole. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] From: Ron Kingston [mailto:kingston"at"cstone.net] FROM: Cher ... I finally located the source for that photo I recalled of a painted baffle. Of course, the birds don't care one way or the other, but if it doesn't make the baffle less effective, and even slightly encourages a few people to install baffles that otherwise might hesitate because they think they're "ugly", what harm could it do? .... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Snowsmom/Paintedbaffle.jpg Now, if only I could paint ..... Cher From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Well, I do know that we are told that PVC collects grit more so than the aluminum stovepipe baffles. We are told to take fine steel wool and rub the PVC baffles down as snakes can attach themselves to it. I have some of them and I have to do it. I can feel the grit it collects. I asked this question in early spring as I was wondering if the paint put on the baffle would cause it to collect grit. I was told not to paint them. However, it does state in "The Bluebird Monitor's Guide" that you can paint them. I think it is VERY wise to ask these questions for the sake of the birds. ... Evelyn Cooper, President Delhi, LA From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] If people are putting out NEW baffles, Lowe's & Menard's (and probably others) have 8" stovepipe that's available in black, which from a distance seems to blend in with surrounding vegetation. Then there's no need to waste time, paint, & worry. As far as beauty is concerned, one nestbox devoid of its 5 cute, little nestlings, is much uglier than ANY baffle. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) From: Cher [mailto:BluebirdNut"at"a-znet.com] A question I didn't get to ask during the discussion on bucket baffles -- someone mentioned using "joint compound" buckets, which - if they work - would be a good idea for people who simply can't afford the supplies for the Kingston baffle, because of trying to baffle a large number of boxes. My question is this: Most of the joint compound buckets I've seen, and also many of the 5-gallon buckets sold in Wal-Mart or Lowe's, are not perfectly smooth on the outside. They have ridges up toward the rim. Has this been noted to cut down on the efficiency of the baffle? I currently have bucket baffles on my two Gilbertson's boxes, simply because the mounting post provided is shorter than those I have installed my wooden boxes on, and the 4' stovepipe baffle would reach nearly to the ground. However, the buckets I used also have ridges around the rim. While I've never noted any snake predation in my nestboxes, I know there are snakes around because one tried to raid my ground trap this year. Any experiences on baffling the Gilbertson's boxes safely, or on whether the ridges on buckets used for baffles makes them any less efficient? Cher From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Cher, I even saw a stovepipe with a couple of ridges going around it on them and I turned it down. You can use buckets from nurseries that work well too. I know people that use those. Another suggestion to cut down on the cost of installing stovepipe baffles is to use a t-post instead of conduit pipe. The t-post costs $2.25 where I live. The conduit pipe costs $10.00. My husband has an off-set grinder and he knocks the little ridges off the t- post in a few seconds where the nestbox fits. It fits tighter to the post. However, both state parks near me used them just as they are and the nestboxes are doing fine. Evelyn Cooper, President Delhi, LA From: Cher [mailto:BluebirdNut"at"a-znet.com] I'm not sure what the term "T-post" means? Cher From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] It is a metal post that is used for fencing. It has one side flat that has the little bumps on it. It is very sturdy and many state parks use them. It is not the garden stake that you see Don and Lillian Stokes use. That can be used too, but the T-Post is not as bulky and easier to mount a nestbox on (at least my husband says so.) Evelyn From: MJShearer [mailto:eshearer"at"comcast.net] Hi Evelyn, Are you saying the T-post needs no baffle? Boxes are safe even from raccoons? I ask because I'm going to talk with Randy next week about alternatives to the stovepipe he could try on the golf course. From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Mary Jane, I am replying to you and the list because I do not want anyone else to not understand it. Yes, you MUST use the baffle. I am sorry I did not make that plain. The hardware cloth inside the stovepipe is easily slit to fit over the T-Post. The only alternative that I can think of would be the plastic cone which is around $18.00 and that could really run into some money for a trail. What is the problem with the stovepipe on the golf course? Is it unsightly or is it in their way? You have got to have a predator guard, there is no way around it. Evelyn From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] I am in the process of making a bucket guard on a t-post to show at my presentations. I already have one on a t-post with the stovepipe guard. I also have a unit mounted with a stovepipe guard on a 2" pvc pipe to show. This is just to show how you can use different materials to put these guards on and it is not hard. We break it down and show how the stovepipe guard is made and put on the poles. One lady at the last presentation I gave came to me later and told me her husband was not able to make the stovepipe guard. She asked me for an alternative and I suggested a bucket, i.e. they use at nurseries. I think a "show and tell" is most important and I always get positive feedback doing it at presentations and state meetings. Evelyn From: Cher [mailto:BluebirdNut"at"a-znet.com] Evelyn, when you say "bucket" used at nurseries, are you talking about the plastic pots the plants come in? Will the nurseries sell them to you, or do you have to have a collection of them from having purchased a lot of plants/trees? How do they size them -- by gallons, by diameter? Cher From: MJShearer [mailto:eshearer"at"comcast.net] Hi Evelyn and All, Thanks! That's what I thought, but I had to ask.... I don't have a problem with the stovepipe baffle-- ( I have two on nestbox poles in my yard) -- but apparently someone at the golf course complained that they don't look "natural enough." I don't know if golfers or the new management lodged the complaint, but I'm going over to talk with Randy next week and plan to give him some options. Someone suggested cedar poles to match the houses, but I know we need a baffle because there are so many raccoons and snakes in the area. (I've followed the recent thread closely.) Since it's a perfect habitat and we've had two successful years with no predator problems, I'd hate having to relocate the trail because I plan to add a few boxes to the trail this year, but it might come to that if we can't agree on a suitable mounting and guard. MJ Mary Jane Shearer; Tucker, GA From: MJShearer [mailto:eshearer"at"comcast.net] Since money had never been an problem for the golf course, I think it's purely an aesthetic issue.... MJ From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Cher, they are the containers that the plants come in. You can buy them at the nurseries. The five gallon is $1.49 and the three gallon is $.99. However, I have some three gallon here and I noticed they have holes on the sides of the container for drainage. I think a small snake could get through that hole. You would certainly have to look at them and make sure there weren't holes in the sides of it. Evelyn From: Larry A Broadbent [mailto:rockets "at"mnsi.net] I'm making a batch of 24 to 36 NABS style 4" PVC Predator Baffles like these on the NABS website. http://nabluebirdsociety.org/predator.htm http://www.sialis.org/smithtrail.htm I'm using 4" diameter White PVC Sewer & Drain SDR-35 that is cut to 24" long with the 4" PVC cap. The hole drilled in the top of the PVC cap, is approximately 1/8 inch larger than the pipe itself. This will keep mice from. The instructions call for using a few screws to screw the 4" PVC cap to the 4" PVC Baffle. Questions: Wouldn't it be better to just use solvent weld PVC glue the PVC cap to the Baffle pipe, rather then using screws? Or am I missing something here? Once assembled, ( with glued on PVC cap), all you have to do is to determine where you want to place the support clamp on the mounting pole below the nestbox location, then lower the completed PVC Predator Baffle onto the pole, then mount your nest box. I'm also going to paint a couple of these White PVC Baffles with Krylon Fusion ( Hunter Green) for display for our Bluebird Convention in the Spring of nest year. Any thoughts, or comments? Regards, Larry A Broadbent Chatham, ON From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz "at"charter.net] Either the screw or the glue would work. Probably the glue would be easier. At first we thought the baffles would stay in the cap by themselves, but they eventually fall down. I haven't tried painting them - I'd be very interested in how well the paint covers, and how well it holds up. The white PVC is very sticky-outy. Black would be better than white, but I like the green concept. Are you putting the PVC cap on top of a hose clamp so it wobbles? In terms of sequence, we take the metal conduit, pound it in to the height we want it at, put on the bottom PVC drain pipe piece, the hose clamp, then top PVC cap (and then you could glue), and finally the nestbox which doesn't actually touch the top of the PVC cap to allow it to wobble. From: Larry A Broadbent [mailto:rockets "at"mnsi.net] Evelyn, thank you very much for your reply. Looks like using PVC solvent weld cement seems the preferred way to attach the 4" PVC cap to the 4" PVC predator guard. Fortunately snakes are not too much of a problem here in Ontario. There are Eastern Fox snakes here, but not all that common. And the Eastern Black Rat (endangered Species) Snake is only found in a few isolated locations in Ontario. Fortunately no where's near the major Bluebird trails in Ontario. Actually I'd like to see one of these Eastern Black Rat Snakes in its natural habitat, but not in our Bluebird Trails. Robert McCaw the Canadian bird Photographer took some photos of a Eastern Fox snake in an abandoned (no longer monitored) Bluebird nest box, here in southern Ontario. I know only too well that our Purple Martin Landlords, especially in the southern States, have to use much larger diameter ( 5 gallon buckets & larger) Predator guards on the Purple Martin hoes poles to deal with the Black Rat Snakes. They are prolific climbers and love to raid Purple Martin houses. Thanks again for your help. Regards, Larry A Broadbent Chatham, ON Canada From: "Dean Sheldon" Sure....why screw around when you can use pipe dope and get the job done permanently. Paint 'e, any color you like. Sometime I have picked up grey or grey/green pipe. If one is looking to further predator proof the baffle, silicone in a spray can makes the surface ultra slippery.....but spraying needs toi be done over the summer to be effective (esp after a period of heavy rain)...d From: Larry A Broadbent [mailto:rockets "at"mnsi.net] Dean, thanks for your reply. Looks like good minds think alike. I'll just glue the 4" PVC caps to the 4" PVC Baffles. I'm going to try spray painting a few with Krylon Fusion ( Hunter Green). This type of paint is designed for painting PVC, & Plastic. And will most like use silicone spray in the summer time, like you recommend. Thanks again for your help and suggestions. Regards, Larry A Broadbent Chatham, ON From: Tnbluebirdman "at"aol.com [mailto:Tnbluebirdman "at"aol.com] I plan to use them here on my trail in East Tn where we have alot of rat snakes. I think the key here is using the hardware cloth instead of the hard cap over the top of the baffle.The smell of eggs and young birds that will go thru the cloth are what attract the snakes and they go directly under the PVC but can't get thru the cloth so they give up. If you use a hard cap, then the odor is stronger outside of the PVC and the snakes will go over it to the box. I hope this makes sense. Bob in Tn From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] This sounds like a good idea from Bob below to share with anyone planning to use the 4" PVC that has lots of snake problems. It is certainly worth a try. Evelyn Cooper, President Delhi, LA Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ "at"columbus.rr.com] Larry, In the directions I have for making baffles. The notes say to use screws and say do NOT use glue as it does not work. I would think a good solvent weld meant for PVC pipe would work, however. I am guessing some tried glue of some kind that did not hold. If you use a solvent weld on the pipe and cap fitting, let us know what brand you use and how it holds up in the field as it does seem a good way to go about it. I think with the wrong sort of glue, the weight of the heavy baffle would quickly pull it away from the cap fitting, and thus the recommendation of using screws I imagine. From: Jeff Aufmann [ mailto:jaufmann "at"ameritech.net ] If Larry uses standard PVC glue, that cap will never come off. Jeff, Cary, IL From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco "at"earthlink.net] From: charlene anchor I recently read Ron Kingston's statement regarding the development of his stovepipe baffles. He tested various baffles in the process of the development and reports that coons climbed up the PVC easily. But he doesn't explain how the PVC was mounted or if it was greased or not. This year I started switching to the Kingston guard and a few greased 4" PVC's. I didn't have any predator problems after that but they weren't on the posts for even the entire season. That may not be long enough to test the baffles and, according to one of Keith's previous posts, it seems the coons will eventually overcome almost any guard. Of those of you out there using a greased PVC guard longer than a couple of years, what has been your success rate for them? And what size PVC did you use? Maybe a larger diameter than 4" would be better. Likewise, what has been the success rate for the Kingston? Thanks. Charlene Anchor, EC Illinois From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:42 AM Subject: RE: PVC and Kingston baffles Charlene, I have several 8" PVC baffles that are made from old irrigation pipe. (Ron Kingston style) I have never had any problems with any kind of climbing predators on it. I have all kinds of climbing predators, coons, opossums, snakes, you name it. I think it is the 8" that makes the difference. I do put a ring of grease on the pole below the baffle and one above the baffle. (To stop the ants and alert me to snakes getting past) The larger diameters are recommended as best for the poles. In our first year experience using the 4" PVC on a trail, we did find signs of snake predation. For people that do not have such huge predator problems, the smaller ones would probably work. Again, it is region, location and what your predators are. Evelyn Cooper, President From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:07 AM Subject: RE: PVC and Kingston baffles P.S. My 8" PVC baffles do have hardware cloth in them, not caps. That was suggested recently for the 4" PVC. My husband drilled holes around the top of the PVC pipe and threaded the hardware cloth in it. It works fine. Evelyn From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 3:04 PM Subject: RE: PVC and Kingston baffles Charlene, it is me again. And to those of you that think I post too much, just bear with me. On our site, www.labayoubluebirdsociety.org, in the "Education and Information Section", there is a wonderful article written by Ron Kingston about his predator guard. It also gives all the instructions on how to construct it and install it on the pole. He also has some wonderful insight on the value of predator guards. I hope this helps. Evelyn Cooper, President From: Gretchen Hughes [mailto:suziq "at"comwares.net] From: Christy [ mailto:ke4fej1 "at"email.msn.com ] Hi All, I may not be up to speed on this topic. But I am very interested in the boxes mounted on the wire. I have always thought that snakes would climb out from the wood posts along the wire. That is why we put the poles a few feet away from the wire but inbetween the wood posts. So, did I miss the discussion that the snakes would not climb out on the wire? I sure hope this is true. Also would like to see the plans as to the size of pipes and the directions. We have lots of cows too!!! Also fantastic news: Just heard from Avon Park, and last I reported was that 95 of their 100 predator guards were damaged. Willie tells me he does have all the help he needs to fix them. The prison there again will have the prison work crews install the guards. Plus, the prisoners will be making 100 brand new guards! They will continue to use the cone shape but, they are making new adjustments on how they will install them to the pole. Willie said all the materials just arrived, so they are ready to get started. The prison has work shops, and this will be part of the prisoners training in welding etc. I think this is just fantactic! ...and looks like a lot of new people will be intruduced to learning about Bluebirds. I heard they are going to be working fast and furious to get ready for March. Their first egg was about the second week of March ...where our first egg was the second week of February. It seems anything connected with BBs... always seems to work out...These little birdies are just pure goodness. They think it is going to be below 32 degrees tonight here!!! Burrrrrrrr....... Christy From: Evelyn Cooper [ mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com ] Yep, it is amazing how anything connected with BB's seems to always work out great!! Christy, I do know that metal posts are used. I don't think snakes can climb across barbed wire fences. I really think Kenny is the one to explain just how this works. I know they fascinate me just looking at them. He has done an excellent job of installing them. I will ask him to address this for you. ... Christy, the back and forth motion was the very first thing I asked Kenny about. He said there was none, but there was a little up and down motion. (seems like from the cows nudging them, can't remember for sure). However, the picture of the one you see is one that he put out there about a month or so ago as the first trial one of a few he put up. He has them secured tightly in two places on the wire. He said they have held up fine, no problems except where he had put a short screw in the box of one. Even with the cows nudging, they are fine. He says the farm helpers tell him they think the cows will loose interest in them and won't nudge them as much. He told me he raised everyone a little higher that had been nudged. We have had some really bad wind and rains and they have held up fine. And the wonderful part about this is hundreds of school children will get to see them!!!!! Kenny maintains two other bluebird trails. He also maintains a nice Martin colony on the lake at his house. He built 25 new duck boxes last week, three of which he installed at the Dairy Farm Trail and the others on his lake. The ducks are adorable. This he does in his spare time. He works full time playing for two churches and composing music. He is about halfway through with the CD that has my Bluebird Song on it. I'll let you know when he gets it finished. LBBS has really been blessed with people that can cut out and construct nestboxes. I hope you find some good help. Just keep looking and don't be bashful about asking!! I didn't think you would!! Evelyn From: Kenny Kleinpeter [mailto:kpkmajk "at"cox.net] Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: RE: Vent holes Hey, Christy. This barbed-wire mount is based on the assumption(?!) that snakes can go up pole but seldom go across barbed-wire and very seldom can make the cognitive connection to go up a post, take a right at the barbed-wire and then take the pole up to the nestbox. Keith Kridler tells me that this is an effective guard (and he should know J ). The nestboxes can get fairly heavy – ¾” cypress boxes weigh in at about 3 lbs. and when you add nest and five chicks and a mom, might come close to 4. Still, it doesn't put too much sag in the bottom strand that takes most of the weight. I use ¾” electrical conduit as the pole. I drill a small hole through the top end to attach the nestbox (with a 2” long wood screw) and at the bottom, I use a grinder to grind a slit about 1 inch deep and about 1/8” wide that will seat right over a barb on the wire (this keeps it from moving laterally. Finally, a piece of wire is wrapped once around the pole at the top barbed-wire strand and then wrapped around the strand to hold the box in place. The beauty of this rig is that the box can be set to any height depending on which bottom strand you chose to seat it on. It can be 5, 6, or 7 feet off the ground putting it way out of reach of the cows. And, it can be easily lowered for nest checks. I sure hope it works! I'm documenting every set of the way in developing this trail with a journal and lots of photos. I'll be posting them to LBBS's web site (see link below) and reporting to this forum (if I haven't been kicked off by then J ). Good luck with your rebuilding efforts, Christy – you Floridians have been an inspiration to us. Kenny Kleinpeter From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 1:34 PM Subject: RE: Vent holes Kenny, my husband told me I gave the wrong size lumber for the nestboxes. He says it is the true 7/8ths and that some of the tops were a full 1" thick. Sorry, I said it was 3/4ths. That is why they were pretty heavy. They will sure give you all the benefits of a better insulated nestbox. The one you see painted shown in the picture is a Dave Magness nestbox (one of the kits he sent us) that I had on hand for Kenny to put on the trial row. From: Sheila Rogers [mailto:sheilarogers"at"charter.net] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 5:33 PM Subject: Bluebirds, birdhouse protector So glad I found this mailing list. !!! This year I put the " Bird Guardian" on 2 of the houses,
left one without. Should I wait awhile to see if they like it? I have the meal worms close by, they always checked the house when their feeding. Reason why I put the "Guardian" on, I've had a lot of house sparrows feeding this year. Any Pros or Cons on this? Sheila ... From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:40 AM Subject: Re: Bluebirds, birdhouse protector Sheila, Welcome to the list! We are so glad to have another hooked bluebirder in our midst! Is the Bird Guardian the apparatus shown at: Paula Z From: Cher [mailto:BluebirdNut"at"a-znet.com] Sheila, Everything I've ever seen about the Bird Guardian is that it is intended to keep out predators and larger birds. This wouldn't deter House Sparrows at all, since they are small enough to very easily fit through the Guardian. If you have LOTS of house sparrows, you will probably need a combination of an in-box trap such as the Van Ert, as Paula mentioned, and a ground trap. It is an unfortunate aspect of being a Bluebird landlord, having to eliminate HOSPs, but it is a necessity if the Bluebirds are going to be safe in the nestboxes you provide. You say you have lots of house sparrows feeding -- you might be able to do some passive discouragement by adjusting what you are feeding. No junk seed mixes, no stale baked goods - just Black Oil Sunflower seed, and maybe thistle, if you have birds that like it. The HOSPs will eat the BOS, but it's not their favorite. If you have any stray HOSPs left, you could try a sparrow spooker on the nestbox the Bluebirds choose. But that can only be done once they have laid their first egg. You can read about the spooker here: http://www.bluebirdnut.com/Competitors.htm#spooker It isn't a foolproof solution, but it can help, once you've cleared your area of the bulk of the sparrows. Cher From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 6:12 PM Subject: Bird Guardian The Bird Guardian struck me as an interesting concept to keep raccoons and cats out of houses. However, I believe Dorene Scriven (author and bluebirder and NABS person) was pretty negative about them in the sense that they made it much more difficult for bluebirds to feed their babies since they kind of had to crawl through this tunnel a zillion times a day. If I were trying to keep raccoons out of a house mounted on a tree (yes I know you're not supposed to do this but in the real world some people do it anyway) I think I'd go for a Noel Guard (wire cage type thing) instead. I imagine a nesting pair of bluebirds that had one of these put on their box might keep tending eggs/babies, but probably wouldn't like it too much. A sparrow spooker put up after the first bluebird egg is laid is a MUCH better option (http://www.sialis.org/sparrowspooker.htm) Since the diameter of the hole is big enough to allow a bluebird to enter, a Bird Guardian will NOT keep a house sparrow out. A house sparrow can get in a round 1.25" hole, a 1.5 x 1" horizontal slot and a 1 x 1.5 vertical slot. I suppose it's possible it might freak them out though. Bet From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Bird Guardian Bet, I would imagine that this device might dissuade an EABL from nesting before it would dissuade a HOSP from nesting. We had a HOSP nest in our old house in the fan duct (about 4" diameter) that ran from the bathroom light fan to the outside wall of the house. The distance from that fan to outside wall was about 30 feet and the HOSP traveled that entire distance in the ductwork to attend to their nest which was built right on top of that fan. I don't think the little length of tubing on the Bird Guardian would dissuade them at all. Paula Z |
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