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Consideration + Responsibilities (Netiquette) on the Bluebird_L Mailing List (Part 1)Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:12:15 EDT Dear all, especially newcomers, I have been on the list for seven months now and have seen this topic of consideration and offense taking come up several times, and have occassionally thought of adding my two cents but have not until now. I am finally going to because although it has, as I say, come up before, nothing has changed, and I would like to help newcomers cope with it. The question arises not just over the HOSP dilemma ( much has been said about this already - and I am definitely no expert but I've made my decision and I respect others so long as they have read about and considered the situation) but about almost everything. When I first started posting and to this day I have received along with the helpful answers some unpleasant, rude or patronising ones to almost every question or suggestion I make however carefully put or innocent. In my first weeks I very nearly unsubscribed because I felt I did not want to be insulted like that. However I perservered because I am interested in and anxious to help birds. I think to a certain extent it is a problem to do with the e-mail medium. It sometimes leads to misunderstandings and often things sound worse than they are meant to. It is also human nature. Some people just don't have a good bedside manner and some people are know-it-alls. I deal with it now by trying to ignore the tone of some posts while imbibing the information. I do not respond to anyone who I feel is being unduly unpleasant. I have found MANY others who are pleasant and helpful and I enter into further correspondence with them. So although I would love to see all the experienced people be much more tactful, (and especially to make sure they understand the full situation before replying in a patronising manner to a newbie) after seven months on the list I am not confident that will happen. So I would also say to all the newbies - just don't let yourself take offense. Ignore it. Stick with it. There are a lot of good people out there who really are willing to help and you'll find them. And it's worth it for the birds. Jane, P.S. I am sure I will get some people who didn't like me offering this advise for some reason. They will probably be rude to me. I will take my own advise and ignore them! Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:44:40 -0500 Very good wording Janet. I agree with what you have written. Perhaps the most important observation you have made is that regarding the nature of e-mail. Several of the comments which offended people during this past year were intended as humor. Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:19:12 -0400 Hi Jane and all - Some people are better than others at wording emails. What may come off as patronising, isn't often what was meant. Any one who has taken the time to answer a question obviously cares about bluebirds, or he wouldn't bother to reply in the first place. So please be patient with all who answer. I know that it's distressing to me, after attempting to answer a question, to discover that my tone came over as all wrong. All anyone can do is answer a question according to his location, his experience, and what has worked in the past for him. If the answer or advice doesn't fit your particular situation, that's fine, but please remember that the answerer was only trying to help as best he could, and is not necessarily aware of your complete situation. I don't think that anyone here is trying to be holier than thou, or trying to drive newcomers away, so I second Jane's plea for tolerance and consideration. Dot (Lake Ontario snowbelt north of Syracuse, NY) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 17:27:21 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA I would like to ditto what Jane said - while we CANNOT change the fact that there are people in this world who feel they must be rude to serve some purpose, we CAN change how we respond to them. We will never be able to stop someone else's rudeness, but we CAN become more tolerant and work on NOT taking foul words or thoughts to heart. The phrase, "take what you like and leave the rest" is a good one, because if you can let the rudeness pass, you'll find the majority of bluebirders on this list are THE BEST, most GRACIOUS, and most GENEROUS people, anywhere. The best defense for rudeness is to not give it fuel. Like Jane said, simply don't respond. It is the tai chi for rudeness. Let it pass - the more we fight against it, the bigger it becomes - the more we let it pass, the smaller and more insignificant it becomes. :-) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:21:05 -0400 Hello All: May I jump on the soapbox for just a moment and remind all our good people that we are living in the lap of luxury with the answers to our questions literally at our fingertips! Back in the "dark ages" (kids hate to hear this) when I began putting up nest boxes on wooden posts, never heard of mealworms or blowfly larvae or house sparrows I did not have the oppportunity of receiving instant answers to my problems. SIALIA (former NABS newsletter) was my only source of information. Today we have the opportunity of hearing from skilled professionals: Ornithologists, Engineers, Wildlife professionals, the list goes on and on. I value this media beyond description and try to give succor to those who need it - we are all passionate about our cavity-nesters and are entitled to our opinions. Tolerance is the key. I have learned much over the years and continue to learn in this fantastic age of communication. Thanks for listening! Betty Nichols, Middletown, MD 45 mi NW Washington, D.C. Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:02:27 EDT Thankyou to all those who appreciated and added to my comments. I hope it will help some newcomers. As Betty Nichols said in her post we are very lucky to have this resource. It would be a shame for anyone to give up on it. Now back to bluebirding - much more fun. A very rainy day here in southern New York and very little activity. EABL pair around a little in the morning, still checking out my boxes. No progress on the nest which I suspect may be TUTI. Jane, Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:09:29 -0400 To: The Constituency, As far as I can recall, I have never been offended by any responses I've gotten from people on this List. Back last spring a few wise heads cautioned me tactfully about using generalities that were too broad, and they were absolutely right. "You shouldn't deal in absolutes.", I think they said. Wendell Long and I sometimes badger each other about this and that, but he gives as good as he gets, - believe me. I'm not offended, and I don't think he is. We should probably fire these shots personally, and not to the whole list. For the most part, the discourse on this List strikes me as astonishingly civilized and restrained. I find some posts more interesting than others, but that's life. As someone has observed, things intended as humor do not seem funny to everybody, and that's life, too. So.....if anybody thinks he's offended me, put your mind at rest. Nobody ever has. Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:49:56 -0500 I have been noticing the "offensive" thread for several days now. I have been on the list for a few months, and have not been offended. What is this all about? Did I miss something? Who got offended? I sure as heck did not! Did I offend someone? I hope not. (I think my stray cat post was on the purple martin forum, and someone got offended over there) I have been on the net since before Al Bore invented it. I have heard everything. This is one of the top lists I have ever participated in. If folks are offended here, then it might be best to just unplug, and give up on this net business, because it won't get better, it will get worse. Just a sign of the times. Hope I have not offended anyone! Bill, (slinking down off my stump to lurk for a while.) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:23:46 -0700 Bruce: I am relatively new here, and enjoy it very much. I've talked with Wendell and find him very interesting and look forward to talking with him more. We would blessed to have a lot more Wendells. I agree that not all see humour that is intended. Hopefully we can all have a good exchange of information and have some fun at the same time. To everyone out here, I hope to have a long-lasting source of information and develop some camaraderie. Nicholas ... Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:00:13 -0500 Good words. Everyone is trying to help. I think concentrating on passing on helpful info sometimes gets ahead of thinking "did I say it nicely?". Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:56:15 -0400 Hello all, When debate turns to issues about birds, and I have an opinion I think is important to convey, I jump right in with both feet. And, I have been known to continue writing long after many believe I should have stopped. And, to those of you I have offended in the past because of this, I sincerely regret my writing has had that effect. However, as you may have noticed, when debate turns to issues related to how we should conduct ourselves on list, such as to use or not use alpha codes, fonts, attached files, should we discuss computer matters, etc. , I very rarely post. Why clutter the list? However, this time, in the debate about consideration for the opinions of others, I believe it is important for me to write. And the reason I think I must write is I really haven't seen that much offensive writing on this list. And, since I see very little distasteful writing here, I must draw one of three conclusions: 1) Bluebirders are overly sensitive. 2) Most of us are so new to written Messages that we are reading things into posts when there is nothing to read into them. This has been described in this thread as a disadvantage of E-mail. 3) It is my writings that have become the subject of so much discussion. I think we all agree we should make every effort not to offend others, and we can all work on that. But, this list is very much about presenting different opinions and trying to determine which has the most merit. That's how advancement in understanding occurs. I believe learning new information about these birds is THE most important aspect of this list. There are volumes and volumes written about Bluebirds that can be read. I think it is presentation of ideas and hashing them out is what makes the list so much better than books. To keep the list better than books, we must post our opinions, new and old, and revisit them when any new evidence that supports them is found. We must also revisit our opinion when another list member posts new evidence or logic that seems to discredit your opinion if you think that new evidence or reasoning is faulty. If we want to maximize the advancement of our contribution to understanding more about these birds, we must understand that our opinions must be scrutinized. And, we shouldn't take offense to those who disagree with us, not ever. Gary Springer Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:39:48 EDT Dear Gary, It seems to me, in my short experience, that bluebirders are passionate about what they do, rather than sensitive and this is a good thing. So that's why I've learned not to take offense and agree with you that we shouldn't, ever. As far as YOUR writings go they have never offended me and have often been very helpful. Jane, ... Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:04:28 -0500 I agree completely. Although I have a lot of hands-on exprience I continue to learn from comments on the list and I am greatly enjoying the give and take of different opinions. As I am sure has been noted, I take issue with those who do not understand the need to take responsibility for eliminating house sparrows, but the world would be a dull place if we all agreed on everything. Thanks. Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:38:35 -0400 I will not put up a bluebird box until I have read the basic bluebird information on the REF GUIDE. I will not put up a bluebird box if I am not willing to monitor it at least weekly. I will not put up a bluebird box in areas overrun with house sparrows or house cats. I will protect bluebirds from raccoons, snakes, and other native predators as best I can. I will recognize that such predators are a necessary part of nature and will sometimes destroy bluebirds despite my best efforts, and I will learn to live with that. I will remember that other bird species will sometimes drive bluebirds away, and I will learn to live with that, too. I will protect bluebirds from the alien house sparrow, either actively or passively, and will not criticize another's methods of control. I will treat bluebirds like the wild creatures they are, and not teach them to be completely dependent upon humans. --Dot Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:21:33 -0700 Thank you, to those of you who responded to my Message "birding selectivity". It's nice to know that there are other people who share my sentiments on this listserve. Yes, Tina, the English sparrows came here, just like most of us.How many of *us* are indigenous to this country, after all? Most of us have the same history that the English sparrows have, wouldn't you say? This listserve is so amazingly prolific that I don't have time to continue on it. In addition, it seems that the non-harming view toward our natural environment is in the minority in this forum, and is not the overall stance of the listserve. I continue to be horrified by this. As a result, I am signing off. Thank you, all, for the information, and for a brief time of sharing in the commitment to bluebirds. Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:31:04 -0500 Life is not perfect. Killing starlings and house sparrows is an attempt to at least partially right one of man's wrongs in bring these alien birds into this country where many of our native birds do not have a defense against them. This is clearly recognized in our laws where these two birds are not protected. Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:49:34 -0500 A pregnant thought - if they had all stuck together the history of this country might have been drastically different. They might even have gotten their country back as has happened in India and other countries with the passing of colonialism! Bluebird Bob, NE OK. Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:12:10 -0400 To: The Constituency, A year or so ago I tried several times to use logic in this on-going exchange about killing things. I came to realize, finally, that there simply was no point in trying to be logical in any discussion that is apparently as emotional as this one. I doubt that the most persuasive of arguments could ever cause even one person to change his mind on the matter. Meanwhile, I will have no more qualms about killing House Sparrows than I have about killing rats, or mice, or termites, or any of the countless pests we all kill routinely. Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:40:41 EDT Dear S & S have you ever seen a bluebird murdered by a house sparrow? When you do you will change your mind. If they were killing for food, most members would not have a problem but to just kill for the thrill that is something else. I really do not like to kill either but there is a difference between killing and murder. Bob Wilson... Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:58:54 -0400 ...I think DNA testing has shown the American Indian came from Asia. Gary Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:02:13 -0500 Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas The House Sparrow issue is too controversial to re hash everyday for months on end! Many are opposed to any killing of any kind and I have NO problem with that. I even admire that quality! If this list is to be for the good of birding we have to stop posting gruesome details 7 or 8 times a day! I would love to have some of the school classes I have talked to join this list but feel many of the posts are too negative for the next generation of MY bluebirders in North east Texas. This is NOT the way I want them started out on the conservation trail. This is NOT the way I describe the joy and elation of building boxes with your own hands and placing them carefully! This all in the hopes of a native species laying a fragile,sometimes fertile egg, with a million years of that species evolution locked up inside of it just waiting for a chance at warmth from the females' breast and loving care of their parents to set it's spirit free to sail across the fields and valleys of this great country! For every bird I fledge a part of me is set free to sail along with them on the journey of life. They will go places and see things I will never be allowed to see or come close to understanding. I will never be able to feel the freedom or joy they have everytime they take wing... Come on every one stop and think if we haven't converted others to our way of thinking with 400 posts on this topic why should 401 change anymore minds! Please consider most of this is in the reference list, Best of Bluebird-L ETC. When one person asks a question that requires a very candid answer that probably more than 50% of this list will disagree with DO NOT post it to the whole list! The sparrow issue should be limited to no more than 2 or 3 posts a month on the whole list! The rest should be done privately off list! Yes I have lost bluebirds to House Sparrows this year but fire ants and humans have each killed more! Weather has killed tens times that number and the birds own infertility leads the list by far. I would like to see the 1st and 15 of every month as a designated "Vent your frustrations on sparrows" day! It would not be required that you post your opinion at all but limit it to no more than one post per person! We are driving off the very people we need to be helping! I don't need to help Joe Huber or Doreen Scriven or any of the Bruce's or Dan's anymore, they are doing fine! We do need to help the ones who have only been here a week or so but are leaving in disgust! I contracted "Bluebird fever" at the age of 9 years old while being held up by my daddy to be able to see the 5 blue eggs! We have new bluebirders in their 60's who have just discovered the same joy I have known all my life! They may NEVER have a problem for as long as they live with bluebirds! Remember this is the Bluebird-L and a separate House Sparrow/ European Starling web list should be started for advanced controllers of these species. Please, back to the Joys of bluebirding! KK Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:10:31 -0400 Subject: Re: to kill or not to kill I'm very glad you did post, Lisa. Your opinions and feelings are important. Glad you are one of us struggling along with the rest of us to figure out our way with bluebirds. Randy Jones Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:23:24 -0700 ... There certainly is: we can stop talking about it so much. I've been on this List for a year or so, and it's only been recently that this "HOSP killing" subject has become so prevalent. For those of you who've been on this List for awhile, I'm sure that you'll agree. Many months ago, HOuse SParrow control was referred to now and again in the past, as is any other subject. Now it has become the topic of choice. While I am in agreement with active HOSP control, I become quite tired of reading about killing HOSPS with SEVERAL posts a day on the subject. (In fact, I just delete most of these Messages.) If I had just joined this List, I think I'd be a little appalled at the amount of time spent talking about killing these birds. Not that I'm in disagreement with it. I just think we spend entirely too much time on the subject. Wendy Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:52:58 -0700 Wendy Guglieri -----Original Message----- From: Lynn Emerich I will probably by leaving this list shortly. Lynn: I am sorry to hear that you'll be leaving the List. And you're right - many others are leaving for the same reasons as you. I couldn't agree more that this subject of killing HOuse SParrows has gotten completely out of hand! You'll notice that many of us have stated so in posts today. You might want to give it a bit longer. This constant "HOSP killing" discussion is something fairly new to this List - maybe with so many of us stating our views the List will return to a more positive nature. Kill ALL sparrows is heard most of the time. How many good sparrowsdid you kill today??? : ( I think that you are wrong about this. I have never heard ANYONE on this List, EVER, suggesting killing ALL sparrows. I think that you might have just misread the posts. For one thing, all other Sparrows are protected by law. For another, HOSPS are not true Sparrows, but rather a member of the Weaver Finch family. And lastly, HOSPS are the only "Sparrows" that I know of that use the nestboxes that we provide, therefore the only ones that are a threat to native species. wg Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:22:28 -0500 Having been on this list-serv for well over a year, I have seen many topics that have gotten a huge amount of attention for a short time, then we go on to other concerns. This year we are rehashing some of them, and revisiting (and expanding) some of the controversies I remember from last year. It IS easy to forget that the current topic of the week (anything from house sparrows to alphacodes to mealworms to signatures to "how to delete") may be taken in context by regular posters, but can present a different "snapshot" of this group, and bluebirders in general, to someone just signing on. For myself, I intend to try to direct new bluebirders to the many good references out there, rather than any of us having to rehash each topic. The reference list gets sent out, but it might help to steer someone there or to the Best of Bluebird-L for a specific topic. There is also a lot of information to be gleaned from the many good books available. (Some of my best early information came from library books) When I feel I might have a particular insight worth sharing, it will still be a judgement call as to whether to post to the list or to the individual. I certainly hope that when I offend someone's sensibilities, which I expect to do from time to time, that the offendee will realize that I, like EVERYONE on this list, care about bluebirds AND bluebirders, and I try to do what's right. Unfortunately, I don't always know what that is. That's one of the reasons I'm on this list-serv--I know I will get opinions, whether I like them or not! Kate Oschwald Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:19:52 GMT It's little wonder folks are unsubscribing to this list. There are so many emails that often it's difficult to figure out what the person is talking about. Cases in point: These came from the list and many of you must have read these. "Thanks. I was off base. I thought the laugh comment was because someone did not know about the trail."What the heck is this person talking about? This was an email to the list. Another: "What are these? Thanks. Bluebird Bob, NE Oklahoma." One more: "Beating a dead horse apparently, but the majority of our list servers would be better off if we forget the alpha codes and take the extra step to typeout clearly what we are referring to. C, and it discourages newcomers and occasional users. Bluebird Bob, NE OK." These are Messages that I cannot even begin to imagine what this person is talking about...and having said: "For many regular users it is a pain in the neck to have to look up a bird
that is rarely referred to" Duh. No wonder we loose so many people from having to try and figure out what they are talking about...why not go to the weekly chat if you're going to send emails like these? It seems one could say what they want in at least one or two posts to the bluebird list a day, but often 6-8 a day and so vague. Boring. Could we not be a bit more subject specific please? Erik Benson, Vermont Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 03:17:39 -0400 I'm concerned about the number of posts coming in on a daily basis, and suspect that this may also be a contributing factor to some of the requests to unsubscribe. I think in future, I will be more inclined to reply directly to the person who posts, and not to the listserve, just in order to make my contribution to reducing the number of posts. I'm retired, so it's possible to deal with 60 or more posts from this listserve. But I fear that if we continue to post to the listserve when a private communication would take care of it, we are going to reduce this listserve to those who are unemployed. And that would be a shame. Keith suggested setting aside the 1st and 15th of the month for posts having to do with sparrows, which I think is a good idea. I'd like to suggest that each of us try to reduce our postings to 1-2 per day, and to post directly and privately for every one we can. Comments? Randy Jones Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 06:28:18 -0500 Bill Darnell, Savannah, TN Randy and others: I don't agree with part of your post. This list cannot be "all things to all people!" Everyone's likes and dislikes cannot be accomodated here. If you and others begin posting private replys, that denies a lot of others the knowledge we came here to get in the beginning. What if Keith and Gary and some others posted privatiely? Let's don't dothis! I hope I am not being "insensitive," a buzz word I am getting a little sick of nowadays. Some feel it is neccezzzry to share with the world their elation with a new birth in the backyard. I don't, but what the heck? Bill... Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:28:25 -0500 Being a new member to this list, I agree with this post. I am here to learn and I will miss much if those with knowledge post to the individuals and not to the list so that we can learn. I would like that the post that in answer to a request at least include part of the Message so that we that are dumb can figure to what the post is in answer. A reply can be edited to leave only what is important to the answer so that it is easier to connect the answer to the question. With many Messages and time between, it is impossible to connect them at times, most time to be exact. I agree that the "insensitive" buzz word is gotten too on the minds of this world, in fact. Thanks for the wonderful exchange of thoughts and humor. Lonnie M. Hobbs Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:57:22 -0400 Ok, I usually don't get into political stuff such as this. But a lesson on the function and capabilities of listservs is necessary. There are different types of mailing lists or "listservs" out there. The Owner has the option of setting it up as he or she chooses. First, it could be an Editor ONLY listserv. This is used to send out newsletters etc, and information only from the editor. He/She is the only person who can send email through the listserv program. Then, there is the Moderated Listserv. This is a listserv where the Owner sets a person as "moderator" each post gets emailed to them instead of directly to the reading public, then that person either approves it or ignores it. Without approval, the listserv drops it in 48hrs. This would be done in strict topic, or sensitive subject listservs, such as one for Grief or AA. Then there is the open listserv, which is what we have. Each person who is signed up has the ability to send Messages to everyone through the listserv. The nature of the beast is that each person who is signed up has the right to post as they please. Now, if we checked the list, I'm sure that we would see that there are well over a hundred folks signed up to this listserv. If we wanted to keep the posts below 40 then are we saying that we should assign days when folks can post?? It's just not the nature of the beast so to speak. Unless we are going to restrict the judgment on what post can go through to 1 person, we are going to be subjected to the judgment, opinions and views of each person who has signed up to PARTICIPATE in this list. I'm going to say that again PARTICIPATE. Given the existence of all of these types of listservs out there, might I suggest that folks who want to restrict or limit topics, number of posts or any other aspect of a mailing list that www.egroups will create a list for you and allow you to control how it is managed. I'm not encouraging anyone to go elsewhere, I'm just asking you all to look at the realistic function of this list. To allow us to communicate and share knowledge. Unless you going to close this list to new members, it is going to continue to grow, and the # of posts per day will continue to increase. It is dynamic and changing. Some people, due to time, lack of interest or differing opinions will leave the list, new one's will come. A List is a community, and it swells and ebbs with the tide. Anyone who wants to learn about the function of listservs, feel free to contact me. Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:15:42 EDT .... 1. A tape recorder is the best way, in my opinion to record data from nesting boxes. When you get home transcribe them to paper or your Cornell Nesting Box program. 2. It is annoying to read reply to all when we don't know what the original question was. This information should be send directly to person asking the question or have the question restated if you feel that the list would benefit from you expert opinion. 3. I now refuse to read any answer or question unless the location of the person asking is given. Each region has different problems and different solution. We don't have wet nest, HOSP (house sparrows), snakes, ear wigs or flying squirrels. We do have heat, cold and raptors that love bluebirds. 4. I believe that the Ref List should be the first place we look for the answer to common problems. 5. I wish that I has bluebirds in my back yard so I could spend more time watching them. If did then I would have HOSP problems and that is why my trails are where they don't live. 6. We have nine volunteers that monitor the three trails with 300 boxes. The more people involved the better chance bluebirds have to survive. Don't be selfish share your love and passion with others. 7. Education should be the secondary GOAL of all bluebirders. I helped a 9 year old boy with his science project at school and he won first place. He wanted to build a volcano but now he is a confirmed bluebirder and helps monitor. Bob Wilson... Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:37:49 -0700 Kevin Putman, Yuba City, CA Easter was a very beautiful day here. Bob Wilson wrote: 2. It is annoying to read reply to all when we don't know what the original question was. This information should be send directly to person asking the question or have the question restated if you feel that the list would benefit from you expert opinion. I want to add that this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone should copy every previous post--or even all of the original post--just to make sure everyone knows the whole discussion. We should really try to edit, delete, backspace away any text that isn't absolutely necessary when we are copying previous Messages. 5. I wish that I has bluebirds in my back yard so I could spend more time watching them. If did then I would have HOSP problems and that is why my trails are where they don't live. There are two opposite schools of thought here: (A) don't put bluebird boxes where sparrows are; and (B) You shouldn't follow (A) completely because you essentially limit bluebird trails to places where there are no people; as such places become rarer, bluebirds will then become rarer also (this actually holds for all native birds, not just bluebirds). To me, (B) is the essence of the bluebird / cavity-nester conservation effort: helping these birds to propagate themselves where they would otherwise have trouble doing so, in places where they've been largely extirpated, not just where they face few or no obstacles. 6. We have nine volunteers that monitor the three trails with 300 boxes. The more people involved the better chance bluebirds have to survive. Don't be selfish share your love and passion with others. How did your group come about? Man, I'd LOVE to have more volunteers (I have one), and nine would be heaven-sent! I've had little luck generating substantial interest here; Sometimes I conclude that I must not be very good at PR, but there's no one else trying here, so I'll have to do. I've had good success getting individuals interested in attracting bluebirds to their own yards, and some of these people now monitor their own boxes, but I've not found people to help monitor the trails that I established. Such people are extremely rare. How did you get your volunteers? Maybe others have something to add. Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:59:35 -0500 From: "Bruce Johnson" bjohnso3"at"midsouth.rr.com Subject: A Fireside Chat Hello Gang: Have you ever stopped to wonder why people leave our list? Did it ever occur to any one of us that we might be one of the reasons? How many would un-subscribe if we didn't jump on subjects and beat them to death, some of which have very little or no bearing on cavity nesting birds. How many would un-subscribe if posts were more informative, if questions asked were not already covered in detail in the Reference. Don't misunderstand me, questions are fine, but if you are indeed interested in Bluebirds, spend some time and read all the wonderful information that people have spent hundreds of hours putting in place for you. Articles like the one Keith K. posted today on eggs and other informative posts are the reason I continue to log on each day to see if there is anything new that will help me enjoy and be more productive in my bluebirding efforts. Before you post, would you pause and ask yourself "Will This Post Benefit Anyone?, Should It Be To The Entire List, Or Private?" then follow your conscience. If someone bends you out of shape, post private. You will most likely end up with a friend. No, I'm not bent out of shape. Let's try to make a good thing better. Best regards, Bruce Johnson ... Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:29:29 -0400 Hello all. I wish it were as simple as Bruce states. Here I am sitting around the fire and it is my turn to speak. I think people decide to unsubscribe on their own and by their own choice. None of us can really control others to join or leave... Does anyone really think that if all the stuff were informative that no one would quit the list? Most newcomers will ask questions that may be obvious to many of us, and they may not have done their homework. So, if this is not what you like, just delete the Message and go to the next Message. On the other hand, if you are the patient type, go ahead and answer it (what do you have to loose? even if the answer is in the GUIDE and Haleya has mentioned this a zillion times already). Yet, if you feel really awful, go ahead and quit the list, it is a choice some are making. Why, is there any reason why people "should not" quit the list? I think it is perfectly normal for some to quit. At some time I may quit also... hopefully not because of reasons such as "I disagree with your opinion so I quit" etc.... Some even use the "unsubscribe" as a threat, like "if most members of the list do this or that (or believe in this or whatever), then I am quitting the list". Some topics are beaten to death because some people are interested in "beating" them to death! They want to "chat" about them. Even if they are "off subject", i.e. not about bluebirds or cavity nesters, witness our "Fireside Chat" as a typical example... As long as we are gentle with each other and nice to each other, and respect others like we want to be respected, I think our group is free. Free to join, to leave, etc. So far, I am not at all disappointed with our members (old and new). I find we are a broad cross section of the people who live around in this great country! That is my view. Now let someone else in the circle around the fire carry on with the conversation. Respectfully stated, Fawzi from MD ... Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:03:26 -0600 Hello All: I think time has taught us that a lot of people do not know how to use the list effectively. If, after being a member for who knows how long, members do not know how to unsubscribe, isn't it logical they do not know how to use the Reference Guide? Publishing this information once each week is not doing the job. Here is what I suggest, its similar to the information of the front page each day in your newspaper: Post, early each day the SAME VERY SHORT POST with hotlinks to the Reference Guide and How To Unsubscribe. All the members that understand these things can hit the delete key. The Newbies, or the ones with failing memory, (like myself) G can click on and get the information without all the members having to read the same questions over and over. They will also find a wealth of other information. Seems that what we have is like the Old Carson Robison song, "Life Gets Tedious." The old hounds howling, so forlorn, Did you ever wonder why you receive a return envelope with a bill, it's more than a courtesy. The company wants their money and make it easy for you to pay them, hopefully before you pay your other bills. Let's make it easy for our members to help themselves. We will be doing everyone a favor. Isn't helping each other what this forum is about? Best regards, Bruce Johnson ~ Life Mbr. NABS Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:12:58 -0500 I would like to thank you all on Bluebird-L for respecting my request not to argue with my belief in not killing the House Sparrow (HOSP.) I would like to make some comments and give you more information about the responses I got so far on this matter. It is acceptable practice to send E-mail privately to any one or more members of the Bluebird-L population. The Guidelines clearly indicate this. Instead of using up the time of everyone on the list, we are starting a private small group, off list, but open to those on the list who wish to participate. Below is a direct quote (item 4.) from the "Bluebird-L Guidelines." "4. Individual back-and-forth discussions should be sent between individuals, not to the entire list. It is great to learn that there is rapport between individual Bluebird-L. However, these discussions can get tedious, timely, and costly for others to read. We have heard from several people that they have become downright bothersome, to the point that some folks, whose time is very limited, are considering unsubscribing. Please don't continue private conversations on this very public list!" I received 12 replies so far. This is a very small number of the total membership, hence it appears that there is no need to involve the entire list with this issue. All 12 want to be on the special private group list. Some people indicated they want this issue to be discussed on the entire list. Since this issue came up several times in the past, and it was discussed actively at those times, I think it is best to keep it off the list... Also, other people correctly indicated that the REFERENCE GUIDE has plenty of such information in it. Hopefully no harm will come from having this additional resource. The purpose of this small private group is not to break Bluebird-L, its purpose is to freely discuss how to raise Bluebirds and at the same time not to kill any other birds. Very soon I shall be sending the 12 persons (plus all new requests) instructions on how to make a private E-mail list, how to add and delete names from their list, etc. If more individuals want to join us, you are welcome! Just let me know. If I inadvertently omitted any persons from the list, please inform me right away so I can make a correction. My first letter to the private list will be today before dinner! You'll hear from me by then. Fawzi Emad from MD
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:44:33 -0500 I too think Bruce Johnson's idea is an excellent one, and I also like Tom's idea below of including a statement to help people come to terms with the house sparrow problem. Links to the information on controls would allow each person to make a choice right for him. Dot TomGaryH"at"aol.com wrote: I think Bruce Johnson's suggestion to: "Post, early each day the SAME VERY Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:02:55 -0500 To: The Constituency I guess it would be a good idea if we all sent our responses about HOSP control via PERSONAL e-mail only. The last thing I would wish to do is irritate or offend anyone on this List, and apparently some folks have very strong feelings on this subject. I've certainly been reminded of that in the last 48 hours. Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:50:42 EDT Just a comment regarding those who ask questions whose answers may very well be on the Ref Guide--there may be others (like me) who have e-mail at home, but no internet access. If I had a pressing question, I'd sure put it on this or Dusty's list rather than waiting until I could get to a computer. In fact, in summer, when school is out, the school computer is likely to be off-line completely, so this *is* my only non-book resource! Rhonda Watts Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:43:30 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA Bruce, et al, I strongly disagree with you on this. If how to grow bluebirds without killing HOSP is on a separate list, and how to control HOSP by destroying them is only done through private emails on Bluebird-L, then WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS LIST???? If we can't all be civil and use the delete button when we see a HOSP post we don't want to read, OR type, "HOSP/:-(" so that those who don't want to read how to control HOSP by destroying them - THEN HOW DO ANY OF US GET ALONG IN THIS EXTREMELY DIVERSE WORLD TOGETHER?? If you don't like a TV program you don't want to see, don't you just simply turn the channel??? Here we all are spending time on this problem. If Fawzi, et al want to discuss this issue on a separate list, let them! :-) The rest of us don't have to stifle ourselves here, just try to be considerate with the :-( and for the "non-destroyers" please just use your delete button. Or better yet, for you folks, type, HOSP/ :-) then you don't have to feel victimized by any of the rest of us. Let's get on with the task at hand!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bluebirding!!!!!!! Haleya Priest Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:59:55 -0500 Haleya Priest wrote: Haleya Priest Amherst MA I agree with you, Haleya. If we only read posts we agree with, what is the purpose of any exchange of ideas? If I see something I don't want to read, for whatever reason, I just delete it. If we can't all be civil and use the delete button when we see a HOSP post A lot of people don't, unfortunately. Here we all are spending time on this problem. If Fawzi, et al want to I have joined Fawzi's list because I was invited, and I can't bear the thought of missing any information that might be useful. If I find I can't manage two lists (in addition to PFW-L and LnL), I will have to choose, and that pains me. I still do have strong feelings against splitting the list, and I hope that the people on Fawzi's list will copy their posts to this one, so people on this list won't lose the benefit of what they have to say. -- Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:21:38 EST Dear Haleya et. al. I think you and others are right - both sides of the HOSP question should be discussed on Bluebird-L . It is very important that people, especially newcomers, hear both sides of the argument - it is, as Haleya says part of our purpose! And I don't think Fawzi is trying, by setting up the other group, to take anything away from Bluebird-L. I think he is rather trying to provide an added resource for detailed discussion of passive or semi-passive HOSP control which people can refer to for extra help with those methods. Personally I feel that this should be able to be done on Bluebird-L ( and I wrote to Fawzi to tell him so ) but often detailed discussions of passive HOSP control incurs the wrath and sarcasm of the other side and I think some people would rather just be able to discuss it without being blasted for it, or for that matter taking up Bluebird-L space with the lengthy details of their particular situations. We often drift off into private e-mails when we get into something particular to one or two peoples' situations. Like Katherine, I have also joined Fawzi's group, because although I have and will if necessary practise active HOSP control I might in some situations use passive methods too and would not want to miss any good ideas that might come up there. PFW will be finishing soon for the season so I should have time to look at both Bluebird-L and Fawzi's group. I am sure if there are significant ideas (rather than detailed individual discussions) they will filter through to Bluebird-L. But Haleya is also right that we need to all just calm down, identify our passive or active HOSP posts in the subject line and use the delete button if necessary. Jane Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:30:08 -0500 Hello all! I want to assure all of you, I am a strong supporter of Bluebird-L. To those who do not join the "side group" I formed, rest assured also that any important findings will be moved to where you can access them. The reason for the "side group" is to avoid any arguments about whether we should or should not kill HOSP. I do not plan to waste any time on this question. Some of you know they must kill HOSP in order to raise Bluebirds. I know I can raise Bluebirds without killing any other birds. I do not plan to argue down anyone's belief, and I won't allow anyone to argue down my belief. I have experience as valid as any other member of the Bluebird-L. So, why waste any time arguing? Those who join the "side group" will show each other what they know. We plan to learn from each other. We shall from time to time let the other people on the main list know what we find. If we open up to the whole list, history will repeat itself: What we will get is put-downs, anger, insults, silly humor, etc. Now we can get to the job of dealing with methods other than killing the poor little HOSP and get to share our experiences, without the hassle normally encountered when the same is done on the main list. We intend to move forward with this topic. When we are done, we shall sum it all up and put it down for all to enjoy. By doing this I hope to spare all of you the tedium that results when such subjects are brought out to the whole group. I remain, affectionately, your fellow Bluebird-L member, Fawzi Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:38:19 -0400 Someone posted about their seeing a blackbird with a brown head One person, sick and tired of reading cowbird answers, wrote in to declare I never wrote about the cowbird before now If a member of the list post a question to the group seeking information This group helps one listen with kindness and understanding Although they all agreed it was a brown-headed cowbird Wendell Long Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:49:41 -0700 As so many people have pointed out, NOTHING works everywhere. If it did, there would be one style of box, one predator guard, one placement style and so on. And how boring life would be! We all have our opinions, some very strongly held and some just borderline. If we would state our views as just that rather than as gospel, we could communicate much more effectively. It is not hard to begin a statement with, "In my opinion" or "In my experience". All of our opinions and experiences ARE different- backyards will never be the same as an open grassland or a woodland with natural cavities. People who don't believe in feeding mealworms will never change their (our) minds. People who open their boxes every day are not likely to stop. Grease appeals to a section of the list but not to others. We should share rather than criticize. Judy Mellin Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:53:39 -0400 A quote from a recent fun argument and retrospection about whether a box door should open from the top or bottom with Lillian Lund Files, past president of the North American Bluebird Association, and bluebirder for 62 years!!!!! : "If we all agree we wouldn't learn anything!" And if that learning is just to let us know we all have different styles, and that each style works for some of us and doesn't work for others - And NO SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH will ever explain out why something works for one person and not the other (perhaps intention and will has more to do with successes and failures than meets the eye!) - so be it!! :-) H Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:07:18 -0400 To: BB-L&WLI, In the interests of maintaining a tone of civility and politeness on our Lists, I think we should probably resist the urge to suggest that chemicals can harm wildlife. As we've all observed, there are some Listers out there who react defensively and often bitterly to any such suggestion, believing apparently that Commerce/Industry can do no wrong. A few of these folks wield pretty sharp tongues and harsh rhetoric, and their responses can spoil the usually friendly atmosphere that most of us prefer. If we feel strongly that chemicals can harm wildlife, including Bluebirds, we can all find plenty of other places to vent our opinions, places where harsh rhetoric is the routine way of doing business. It is always perfectly appropriate to refer one another to 'bona fide' scientific papers and studies without even mentioning our own personal views. Meanwhile, let's try to keep our contentious urges in check, and keep these two Lists civil. I think that ours friends at Cornell and NABS would appreciate our restraint. I feel certain that Wendell, that most civil of men, would appreciate it. Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:05:41 -0500 Bruce wrote--- To: BB-L&WLI, In the interests of maintaining a tone of civility and politeness on our Lists, I think we should probably resist the urge to suggest that chemicals can harm wildlife. ----------- I think it has been clearly demonstrated and proven scientifically that chemicals can harm wildlife. It is not a mere suggestion but a proven fact. One can do an internet search on DDT + birds to see what scientific data has proven. I agree with Bruce that if we are to discuss these topics that we leave our personal opinions out of the discussions and concentrate on what has been proven through the use science. One interesting thing that I read recently is that RoundUp, a herbicide and not an insecticide, has been cited as the cause of death in a Tree Swallow found in a nestbox. I found this interesting since we tend to think of only pesticides as killers of our nestbox birds. Jay Gilliam Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:20:16 -0400 I agree with you Bruce that we need to maintain civility as we present our views. The WLI list is very good in that regard. WLI is not open to the public and is very much under control. For the Bluebird-L group, one may express opinions that disagree, but in a civil way. Since pesticides and Bluebirds do interact, this list is the proper place for such discussion. Anyone who has doubts about the harmful effects of pesticides on birds is from another planet. Here on planet Earth, our scientists have long ago found that pesticides (old ones like DDT and new ones as well) can and do harm to birds and people. There is no way to enforce or make sure of the safe application of such chemicals. I personally do not apply any chemicals to our lawn (feeding, weeding, etc.) for the protection of my Bluebirds and children as well as water runoff from our property. I think all such chemicals have an adverse effect on life around us, not just birds, but people as well. Fawzi in MD Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:33:20 -0700 Hello Bruce & all; ..our Lists, I think we should probably resist the urge to suggest that chemicals can harm wildlife. I don't think that's at all advised, Bruce. The inappropriate use of harmful chemicals is an unfortunate aspect of life here. It effects all of us, especially our birds. If we don't talk about them, who then? As we've all observed, there are some Listers out there who react Gee! I wonder whom you could possibly mean by that...(:-)! that Commerce/Industry can do no wrong. A few of these folks wield pretty I guess that's in direct opposition to the folks that feel that Commerce/Industry can do no right. Yes? .. Bluebirds, we can all find plenty of other places to vent our opinions, Or we could all just hide our collective heads in the collective sands, and pretend that everything is just swell... It is always perfectly appropriate to refer one another to 'bona fide' Yes. This is always true. The difficulty comes in when the writers personal opinion or agenda becomes the focus of the paper. Unless we rationally discuss the issues and merits, we all risk becoming mind numbed automatons. I don't recall an admonition that we're required to check our brains at the door. I, for one, use mine. Someone making an unfounded assertion doesn't make it right by the rest of the readership acquiescing to that position. I'd hope that that was not what you were proposing. Meanwhile, let's try to keep our contentious urges in check, and keep Yeah. Sure. Let us be sure that the pabulum never gets riddled with facts... L8r all, Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:02:16 -0400 To: The Constituency, When I wrote the 'Civil Discourse' thing I never meant to imply that I'm a pro-chemical man. Far from it. Anything but. I just don't like to see the kind of harsh uncivil response that anti-chemical Messages often result in. I don't think they have any place on BLUEBIRD-L. I guess I must have been writing carelessly. Bruce Burdett, NH Bluebird Conspiracy, Sunapee NH Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:34:39 -0500 Dear Members of the Bluebird List, I was just reading the E-mail postings from the bluebird-L as I have a tendency to do almost each and every day. As bad as we are at times, I must agree overall the list seems to grow better with age as some have suggested recently. I can not help but to be reminded of my favorite movie of all time "Casablanca" where Rick shoots the bad guy in the end(at the conclusion of the motion picture I mean to say) and Louie while having been standing there and watching, issues his famous orders to his assistants and says to them that there has been a murder and they should round up the "usual suspects". They walk away into the night air fog, Rick saying Louie this may be the beginning of a wonderful friendship. Or something to that effect. I have not seen the movie in over a week and cannot remember the exact quote. But I remember As Time Goes By! But, you talk about the unusual suspects! We have 'em all right here on the bluebird-L for sure. I mean we got characters of all stripes and color and a few even albino or at the very least borderline albinism. Why, I am here to tell you if you will just listen, the people are becoming even more interesting than the birds. Thought I would never live to see the day I would say that! But just look at what we have for example: First of all we have a majority group of persons with kindness, understanding, integrity, humor and a diverse amount of knowledge and education. Not to stop there, for we have much more talent in this group. And it is magic how we have all Internet met from far and wide across the land. Just to name a few special talents present without violating anyone's privacy by naming given names--just take a look at some of the world class gifts of a few of our special people: There are among us but not limited to: 1. The group that belongs to the Hole Measuring and Placement Society(HMPS). An especially loved gang of members who are most satisfied while measuring things. I mean these people can spend day and night getting excited over a blue light special measuring tape on sale at K-Mart. They possess the same enthusiasm for life in all its glory! You know them by their writing. They never fail to help us when we need to know how far to go and when to make a turn and which fork in the road to take. They are the real people and they also know math things such as all about Pi and stuff. Thank the good Spirit for the Hole Measuring and Placement Society. We would be lost without them for sure. I know I would be. 2. Then there is a equally fantastic group of founding members of the Tree,
Vine and Berry Lovers and Huggers(TVBLH). A number of their group sleep in 3. Another popular group among us are the Cooking, Canning and Collecting Association(CCCA). In some way not unlike the CCC camps of yesteryear but much smarter and held in higher esteem for their special talent for out squirrelling the squirrel. I mean if you listen to these people and follow their good advice you will lead not only a longer but much happier life. Guaranteed! 4. A fourth group is a very special group. They are so special I hardly know
how to tag them. For lack of a better name I shall call them our Society Of
Universal Helpers(SOUH). They stand in the soup line for you when you are
hungry. They hold your hand and hug you when you are depressed and lonely. They
stop and pick you up out of the ditch when you have fallen off the bridge. They
dry your tears when you can't stop crying. They care deeply for you when no
others do. They are next to the Saints but they never act Saintly. They speak
with action while the rest of us talk. The are silent as the lambs while giving
you their warm coat. They help rescue you from yourself. They take away the pain
when you think you can not stand another moment. They love every creature one
day at a time. I wish I could drink from their cup but I got a long way to go
before I earn my strips and a long distance to travel before I So you combine the groups and you have a thing called the Bluebird List. The Bluebirds will be proud when they get to know us a little better. They will understand we are not all bad people, a few of us only confused somewhat at times. That's All--As Time Goes By. Wendell PS: I'm sorry I did not mean to leave out the Whiners And Complainers Organization(WACO). But, since there is currently only one member present and accounted for, I thought it hardly worth mentioning. From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas I have written about loss of habitat and covered so many potential problems I thought I would deal with loss of information this time.... Educating from this list; We have a communication problem with new members because about 90% of the time one of their first three questions have already been answered last month (multiple times) or it is so simple someone jumps down their throat with army boots on. Or tells them "go read about it" when the purpose of the list is to educate and answer questions posted to this list! We don't need five of the same answers to a simple question posted back to the list but at least one should be posted in reply! YOU should not wait on an "expert" to answer if YOU can answer it! These answers are all based on our experiences and will vary widely but that doesn't make them totally right or wrong! Notice my signature line states Keith and Sandy? If you go back about three years you will see she has posted about three times! Why? because on about her second post she got several off list replies that she was obviously miss informed and had no knowledge or experience with the bluebirds.....These people had been bluebirding in their back yards for a couple of years and had NEVER experienced or read what she wrote about!!! She began bluebirding in 1973 shortly after we started dating and we had fledged over 3,000 bluebirds together by the end of 1980. I doubt very seriously if there is another person on this list or still living that has logged as many hours, miles driven on motor cycles or cars while monitoring boxes, recording data or seen as many adult bluebirds as she has. In the 1980's She allowed me buy a single drill bit for $168.00 to make the nestboxes at the top of page #104 in the Bluebird Monitor's Guide, Of course she didn't know I then needed to buy over 2 tons of equipment to make the darn thing spin!!! Sandy still reads this list and our Texas list and was disappointed in
some of the information coming out of NABS publications since she has read these
from 1979 and knew most of the greatest bluebirders that have ever been involved
with the bluebird movement. She scours the internet for old I have seen some of the best old bluebirders join this list, make a few posts and disappear for these very same reasons. The reason we were able to raise so many bluebirds so quick was mostly due to communicating with bluebird experts like Larry Zeleny, William Duncan, Jack Finch, Gerald Hartley, Joe Hurst, Lil Files, Mary Janetatos, the Jernigans, Art Aylesworth and on and on! These people answered the same silly, simple questions time after time year after year with a smile on their face! We have the new generation of bluebird experts out there and some really good ones on this list BUT we probably have "taken care of" quite a few of the newest and most dedicated bluebirders that are JUST getting involved or thought they would ENJOY joining this list to LEARN and not be chastised publicly.....OR PRIVATELY! It takes longer to help someone to your way of thinking using the white dove and an olive branch post than an artillery shell, BUT we are dealing with the symbol of "Hope and Happiness" and we need all the help we can get, so lets take care of these people politely once we get them here! Keith Kridler Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 08:45:09 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA There is no need to talk about all the gruesome details on line, but many of
us use the symbol :-( on the subject line to let people know they can delete it
if they don't want to hear about killing HOSP. OR in the content of the email
start by saying DON'T READ this if you are opposed to disposing of HOSP. Bruce Burdett wrote: To: The Constituency, From: "Bruce Burdett" blueburd"at"srnet.com I suggest this rule of thumb: From: "susan"at"changeswithin.com" changes"at"sunlink.net With all due respect Bruce, I think the key to putting "an end to this
controversy" is: R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Respect, Reflect, Respond, Resolve, Respect. I'm suddenly in the mood for a little Aretha Franklin. Think I'll play it for "the bluebirds" and watch Maniacal Mama B. tug and rub and peck at the coverings on my car windows and mirrors. Respectfully From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hi Bruce, and list, I have been trying to keep all discussions about sparrow
control off the list. Have had several discussions with people off the list,
none of which should have been offensive to others. Most was just about the
proper way to trap that brings results. Any that have problems they need to
discuss can contact me off the list and i'll try to guide you to the proper
method,with the least effort on your part. I've never kept record of nests
destroyed on this list each spring,but there have been many this spring already.
You are going to read about many more before July. thats what I would like to
stop reading about C... From: "John C James" jjames14"at"nc.rr.com I have received several private Messages from individuals on the list who feel entitled to lecture me by e-mail on the subject of killing, and have requested that I do not speak of killing because it upsets them. They say I should talk only about the living. I am a former combat paratrooper with many buddies who were killed fighting for their country. I need no emails from anyone advising me about the unpleasantness of any kind of killing. The individuals who wrote are deeply concerned about the killing of snakes, even thjose with bluebirds in their bellies, and snakes killed prowling in the vicinity of bluebird nestboxes. After expressing my opinion on the list, they have advised me by email that I should not write about killing in their "holier than thou" attempt to prevent me from expressing my opinion. I intend to maitain my right to freedom of speech, and all those offended by me can exercise their freedom to hit the delete key whenever they see a Message from me. . This Message is intended for ALL who have sent me the Messages referred John James From: "Elaine Whitworth" visionfarm"at"earthlink.net I do so enjoy being the devil's advocate....so why pass up a perfect opportunity...... If people choose passive HOSP control...because they don't want to "kill anything", then it is their decision. If people live with mice, flies, and roaches in their home, because they don't want to "kill anything", that also is their business. If people choose not to take antibiotics because they don't want to "kill anything", that is also their business. However, I DO choose to take antibiotic medicines, swat flies, eliminate sparrows permanently, and poison mice. And may God forbid that any of those roaches enter our adobe.... And my point is..... that I found out about the bolt traps through this list...and that knowledge has been tremendously valuable in increasing my BB population.....to "deny knowledge is wrong". I've got nothing against passive...but I don't agree with the restriction of an aggressive perspective over a passive one. It is discriminatory and lacks respect for the opinions of those who do not share the passive view. Perhaps those pacifists should make use of a bit more of that tolerance on the BB list which they seem to extrude in other areas of their lives. Elaine in nw tn ... From: KKaylor445"at"aol.com Thanks, Karen. But can you send this to the list too? It would help remind list members that children read their emails too. Dot Dear Dot: Thank you for speaking up. I almost unsubscribed because of the "details" concerning the HOSP killings. My ten year old daughter is learning about bluebirds, and we were reading one of the listings together. I had to immediately delete one because of the unnecessary comments and details of the elimination. Hopefully, we won't have to start "rating" each e-mail: Thanks again, Karen Kaylor From: "Bill & Dot Forrester" forreste"at"ptdprolog.net In an earlier post, I asked for relief from the gory details of HOSP control. I certainly did *not* mean that the subject should be banned, as anyone working with nest boxes will sooner or later have to deal with this issue. All I ask is that list members omit the more disgusting details about what to do with HOSP once trapped. Judging from my private email, children read our posts too - see a sample below. I believe that the purpose of this list is to develop interest in bluebird conservation and to share information on how best to go about it. For me, another purpose is to develop a respect for the natural world and all its inhabitants. I do not want the next generation to think that bluebirding means killing every single native creature that might possibly pose a danger. If you are going to shoot *every* potential predator around your boxes, please don't share it with the whole list. The recent snake issue is a perfect example, complete with violent opinions endlessly repeated and insulting emails posted to the whole list instead of to the individual involved. Is this what you want our younger readers to see??? Dot (PA) Thank you for speaking up. I almost unsubscribed because of the "details" concerning the HOSP killings. My ten year old daughter is learning about bluebirds, and we were reading one of the listings together. I had to immediately delete one because of the unnecessary comments and details of the elimination. Hopefully, we won't have to start "rating" each e-mail: From: "John C James" jjames14"at"nc.rr.com Dot, I respect your opinion would never wish to offend you but cannot adopt your proposal, and feel as adults we should be censored because we disclose the details of our actions to our community of interests. . Children may not be as fragile as you think. I have officiated and held funeral services for birds and cats and dogs before burying them in my back yard in shoe boxes, and match boxes at the behest of my young children. Death is part of the real world for animals as well as humans and maybe shielding children from the alleged unpleasantness makes it more difficult for them to deal with death when it is necessary later in life.. When I first heard of trapping HOSP's I thought they were taken out to the forest and released. It took a while before I learned otherwise. Life and death decisions are sometimes necessary. Writing the manner in which they were dispatched is not for a purely scientific purpose. Killing anything is no fun whether it is to eat meat or as a justifiable defensive measure. Some meat eaters may not desire to hear the details on how the animals they eat are slaughtered, and may desire to tell young children that meat is manufactured in the supermarket, but I do not believe that is advisable. Killing any living thing is unpleasant from an ant to a fly on up the scale. Do 10 year olds swat flies, and step on ants oblivious to the fact that they are killing them. I don't think so. If we cannot face the details of how HOSP's are killed, maybe we better stop killing them and let the bluebirds suffer the same consequences that befell them before anyone took an interest in them. Still I am willing to listen and consider other viewpoints. What I believe today does not lock me in to believing it tomorrow. That is the privilege of rationality. Above all, Dot, while I disagree, I do respect your passionately held opinion and your right to express it, and hope you will not be annoyed with me over this e-mail. John James From: "Carole" cas"at"att.net For myself, the gory details are becoming more important as I find myself seriously considering killing the House Sparrows (HOSP) that are harassing my bluebirds. I have always been extremely tender hearted and go out of my way to not hurt or kill anything, and in truth I have no idea if this is something I'll actually be able to do, it depends on the details and the actual experience. When I last posted to the list, I reported that a HOSP had taken over the nestbox of my 2nd pair of bluebirds. We wrapped that house up with monofilament line and put up another nestbox in the same area. It seemed the bluebirds had left, and the HOSP was not stopped by the line all over the house, so I was going to ask my husband to take down both those boxes. The next morning the bluebirds were back, Mrs. building a nest at turbo speed in the second box. I actually had hoped they had moved on and found another safer place to nest, but I saw them or another pair trying to squeeze in the ends of our clothesline poles and this seemed so pitiful to me, maybe they really do need these boxes! So we removed the monofilament line and let the HOSP have his house (with a beautiful bluebird nest inside, but no eggs, thank goodness) and after that first day of building, the female bluebird has stayed mostly in her house. Meanwhile, another male House Sparrow claimed the empty box next to our first bluebird pair so I wrapped the bb house up with monofilament line and that has worked up until yesterday. Both of these HOSP who have claimed the houses have been chirping on them steadily now for the past 6 -7 days straight...no sign of any females... isn't this strange?? I see many male HOSP around but these two males can't sing up a mate. The one by my first pair of bb's is getting bored or something and he's starting to hang out by the bb's box now. I just don't know of anything else I can do but to kill them. I thought they'd get their mates and be busy building their own nests, and I was going to try piercing their eggs, but this is not happening and they are moving in on the bluebirds and there are no more empty houses. The monofilament line only seems to slow them down a little. I asked my husband to buy me a bb gun today. My family thinks I have lost it completely over these birds and my husband suggests we go back to simply enjoying them, with the feeders and the bird bath, and remove all the houses as well as all this anxiety about the HOSP... this might be the answer for us, but meanwhile we have bluebirds already (as well as a tufted titmouse and house wrens) nesting so I still have to DO SOMETHING about these two immediate problem HOSP who are only bothering the bluebirds. Trapping would be great if my husband would volunteer to do it. ;) I know I do not want to touch or handle the bird, could not bash it or drown it, etc. I think I could shoot it because I picture having perfect aim but I am very worried about things going wrong and those gory details. I want rid of these HOSP so badly that I am turning into a killer :( Never thought I'd consider doing such a thing, yet it seems I have justified it. I have watched those bluebirds build their nests and feed their young and these two batchelor HOSPs do nothing but chirp and harass other birds. I do not want to wait for one of them to kill before I take action against them. There is no doubt that once they decide to take over a nestbox, they do, no matter what. The details of killing are unpleasant of course, but for those of us actually intending to do such a thing, I need to know what to actually expect so I can be prepared for what comes next after the decision is made to do it. Carole http://mountainwolfcove.com From: "Elaine Whitworth" visionfarm"at"earthlink.net Very well said John. The eloquent truth stands for itself. This year we have been extremely fortunate to attract 4 BB pairs to nest on our 20 acre homestead. This is a first:-) And it has been made possible "only" because I learned about the traps. In the beginning I tried the passive method. It never helped the BB's in any way. I've seen several HOSP gang up on a single BB, who tried to nest in a vacant house that was well away from the HOSP nests. And so it was last year I joined this list and became a bit more aggressive on behalf of my BB's. It has produced success. I don't particularly enjoy reading the gory details either..... so I don't read them. elaine in nw tn ... Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 18:30:16 -0400 Contains info about disposing of HOSP Dear Carole, My heart goes out to you. You've tried as so many of us had. I was once in your shoes!!! None of us LIKE the task of disposing of HOSP, but if you want to have any sanity what so ever you have to consider disposing of them. There is no way I could bluebird if I didn't get used to the awful trapping and disposing of HOSP!!! You can get a hold of a raptor rehabber in your area and give your disposed HOSP to them. Simply put the deceased HOSP in a plastic bag in the freezer and save for when you two can hook up. Else wise, you can leave the deceased HOSP out for the crows or other wild creatures to eat. That is what I often do. That way you know you are giving back to nature. I used to bury mine, but the skunks always dug them up! :-) If you trap, you can buy engine starting fluid and spray that into the bag. This is a trick of Bill Davis and he says and I confirm, they simply go to sleep in the arms of Mother Nature - as the fluid is mostly ether. That is probably the easiest way to "do the job". You could also get in touch with KK or Fawzi and find out how to clip the wings down that way they are still alive but don't pose a threat to the bluebirds. Plus they'll probably get taken by a bigger predator. I would suggest that you purchase a Gilbertson PVC box and hang it in your back yard. This will help keep the HOSP away from it while your bluebirds go about building their nest in it. I find them extremely helpful. You will see that once you dispose of a HOSP it will become easier. Doing it
the first few times is the hardest. Know that in doing so you will be saving so
many other birds - bluebirds but also chickadees, nuthatches, tufted titmice,
etc!! :-) H From: "Karen Louise Lippy" brdbrain"at"superpa.net Mary Lou, I never attacked Emily, but I feel it is right for me to vent another perspective. I did not lie to her and tell her the snake could never have gotten to the box just because I did not think they should have killed it. I admitted if it was up a tree it was in all probability trying to get her chicks. The snake was already dead when she posted. Her husband was the person on the scene and he made the best decision he could with the information he had on hand. I cannot fault him for that. But I can try to offer another perspective and hope that the next time such a thing happens, he will take an alternate choice. The unfortunate thing about a forum such as this is that a person reads a
post and responds directly to the individual or to forum with their thoughts.
Most times this is a good thing. But there are subjects which touch many of us
and we respond individually, but the result looks like a I believe that it is rare that any of us intend to make any other contributor to this list feel unwelcome or that their ideas and experiences are unworthy. Karen From South Central PA ... From: "John C James" jjames14"at"nc.rr.com Emily, I always read Paul's intelligent and well reasoned e-mail on snakes. His passionate rationale that they should not be killed is interesting. I do not agree with Paul. I would do the same as Barry did under similar circumstances. Maybe tomorrow, or next week or sometime thereafter Paul or Jay or Karen or others may change my mind and your mind or Barry's mind on the subject, but they have not yet done so. When Paul writes you the killing of the snake "was way out of line, completely unnecessary" even when adding "with all due respect to the person on the list" he is judging you using HIS criteria as the yardstick. It reads as an unequivocal statement that you are wrong he is right. Paul did not witness the event, and should not criticize you or Barry. It may be that Paul will accept no reason for killing a snake, so you could never be right. I do not know, but one acts on his own judgment, and not another's. It is Paul's right to attempt to convince us to believe his criteria and
thus convert our actions to those he would approve. However, Paul should not say
that someone who believes differently from him.and acts on that belief is wrong,
and he is the one who is right. Maybe he is, and then may be he is Emily, I often write e-mail, and later discover that I have forgotten to make a distinction between expressing my opinion, and writing as if there was no room in the world for another opinion on a particular subject. Not realizing the ambiguity of what I wrote has conveyed to others what I sincerely never intended. Sometimes I make a remark that I think is funny, and yet others interpret it as insulting despite the fact I never meant it that way. Sometimes the difference between the connotation of a word as opposed to the denotation can cause a misunderstanding. I hope that this is the problem here. I would ask you please to not unsubscribe from the list, and I bet you will have many others make the same request. John James I like Emily, and I am upset that she was judged by your beliefs and not her own or mine. It will be a bitter disappointment to me if she unsubscribe. Consideration + Responsibilities on the Mailing List Bluebird-L Part 2 |
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