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Nestboxes (Gilbertson & other PVC) - Part 2In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website:
Also see heat. From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas I DO recommend PVC boxes to nearly everyone who has sparrow problems and have built them by the hundreds. I prefer to recycle the PVC pipe and keep it out of landfills so I use the full series of sizes available for different birds. I am still using the first PVC nestboxes I built in 1975 and making more every year. Small cavities are often chosen by the birds even when larger boxes are provided. On the other hand I have one of my standard nestboxes on a power pole and the bluebirds are building in a mailbox 15 feet away. The baby bluebirds were all lined up at the edge of the mailbox opening and scampered to the back of the box when I drove by last week. In this case the birds were safer in an large, low mounted, open doored metal mailbox rather than the wood box which has flying squirrels in it. I would assume these birds will exercise in very small cavities by taking turns standing on top of siblings and still be just as strong as birds that fledge from say this mailbox which has 10 times the floor area of my standard nestboxes. It would be nice to have in-box video that would document the amount of exercise bluebirds do in various sized boxes. Purple Martin video shows these young do a tremendous amount of "flying" in the box before fledging. Research has shown that adult bluebirds need 4 square inches of floor space for each nestling in order for them to be able to adequately clean out the fecal sacks. Some adults are better at cleaning nests than others! By observing what we see happening and reporting losses or expressing off the wall opinions is what makes this list work! We toss out ideas to make you think and warn about problems new people might or will encounter. EVERY nestbox style has it's own set of problems people need to be aware of and nestbox floor size will also have advantages and disadvantages as will extra depth. Experiment and enjoy the birds! KK Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Hi all, I have had two Gilbertson PVC nest boxes in my yard for 3 years and every year I have had Eastern Bluebirds(EABL) use the nest boxes. They raise 2 or 3 broods a year and they have always had 4 or 5 babies each brood. I thought 5 babies was a bit cramped ... Well now they have 6 eggs in our Gilbertson nest box and the babies are hatching today my husband looked and there are have 5 babies and one egg still hatching. I don't know how 6 babies is going to be able to stay in the box after they get to be 10 to 12 days old. Has anyone had this many babies in a Gilbertson box to fledge successfully?? They are going to be sitting on top of each other!! The sibling rivalry is going to be terrible!! Kerry in NE corner of Okla. From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com If I remember correctly, there was some discussion a while back about using pvc nest boxes down here in the south and it was stated that it was not practical for us because of the heat. Is this correct? I do not use them, but had a person to ask me about them. Thanks, From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas By using SDR 35 (heavy walled sewer and drain PVC pipe) and buying the caps to fit this low pressure pipe you should be able to find these flat topped 4" caps (for tops or bottoms) for under a dollar. A 10 foot long joint of pipe, 24 caps and you can make 12 nestboxes (10" long each) for under $25. Add a 12"x12" cedar or white pine top and you add another $1.60 to each nestbox. Check with contractors and ask for scrap lumber for nestboxes. Check for local fence contractors and ask for scrap lumber or the scrap ends from the newer PVC square pipe fence posts as they make great looking "square" PVC nestboxes. These come 4" and 5" square. An old cedar/redwood fence that is 6 feet tall and 50 feet long made of 1"x6" nominal lumber will build 100 nestboxes. Fencing contractors repair and replace thousands of running feet of perfectly good nestbox material a year. They also make PVC 1"x8" "boards" and Bob Wilson can plug his web site:-))) showing how to make these types of nestboxes. If you are trying to reduce House Sparrows passively at least HALF of your nestboxes should be PVC boxes! Check your "Thrifty Nickel" free newspapers and call up the local "one-man" bandsaw mills and they often will give you reject lumber! Or they will custom cut you lumber for nestboxes at a fraction of the cost of milled lumber. Request they cut from old "died on the stump" logs and they will nearly be dried and great for nestboxes. You should NEVER have to buy lumber for a normal bluebird trail! Contractors and cities pay thousands of dollars a year to "haul off" bluebird house material to landfills! Don't forget to call commercial electricians and ask for old metal conduit for poles. Giving a gift of a couple "free" nestboxes to these companies who "donate" material will normally get you "covered up" in free material. Metal scrap yards normally have very cheap materials for mounting poles. Lumber stores have damaged material they will "donate". KK Date: Fri, 27 May 1904 11:24:10 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA I don't have daily temperature records yet, but a guarantee of at least 14 days or so of 90* days with many up to almost 100*. Bluebirds occupied the box, and laid 4 eggs. All 4 babies fledged safe and sound! This box was located with no shade on it what so ever. I checked the box frequently and all looked well the entire time. The last week, up until the day of fledge was between 90* and 98 - 100*! Even after a day of wicked heat I couldn't believe how calm and cool they appeared. It was located next to a small area with rushes and then large trees, but not any even close direct shade on the box. However this might have brought the temperature down a hair. Also some of those days were hazy - but still, I am amazed they made it. When
they first hatched it was also in the 90*'s. I don't like the thought of having
to experiment like this, but unless I test the limits, I won't know. I still
don't know if I'd let a Gilbertson be unprotected, but in this one case they
made it Haleya Priest mablue"at"gis.net From: "carol fitzpatrick" gdfitzmich"at"msn.com Haleya, Cold weather is the furthest thought from mostly everyone's mind right no w with many posts discussing the summer heat, but I guess I'm already thi nking about making next year better. Thanks, Carol Fitzpatrick Oxford, Michigan From: "Pat Foley" removed at users request I have a gilbertson, and never has a bluebird chosen it. Last year, some carolina chickadees raised five babies in it. This year some HOSP appropriated it, until I tore out the nests a few times, then it stayed empty for the rest of the season. Maybe it's the location, but it doesn't seem a bluebird choice. All my boxes are on 6' green fence t stakes, with 4' of 4" PVC pipe as baffles. HAven't lost any babies to predation (and we have ratsnakes, raccoons around). The popular box this year was a standard wooden one, that was right next to the house (just about 50 feet) only a few feet from the bird feeding area. Even though there were plenty of boxes down in the field to choose from. The hub of feeding activity, and the worst place, IMHO, for bluebirds to nest. It faced northeast, and I had knocked it partially down with a tractor in the spring, and never got around to straightening it, so it leaned like a peterson box, maybe that was the attraction. Or maybe becuase there was a cypress with a hanging limb about 30 feet opposite it for them to stand guard over the nest hole. They liked it well enough to renest, anyway. I like the square boxes, because they are easy to replace with a trap box, if a hosp takes possession. I have a horizontal bluebird box, and that is one I am thinking of getting rid of. Bluebirds don't use it, and it is too hard to get rid of HOSP that take it over. Wrens were the biggest appropriators this year. Took over 2 bluebird boxes, even after they nested in three wrenhouses. Lots of wrens this year. No bluebird/egg fatalities due to wrens though. Pat Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:48:28 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA I prefer wooden boxes, but where I have a high HOSP rate, the Gilbertsons have far outweighed all the questions about temperatures. Perhaps others have experiences they can share about whether there are studies done. Also, with Cornell's pilot study this year, hopefully we'll get a sense of
ambient versus nest box temps in Gilbertsons and mortality rates. :-) H Haleya, Cold weather is the furthest thought from mostly everyone's mind right no w
with many posts discussing the summer heat, but I guess I'm already thi nking
about making next year better. From: Adthomas10"at"cs.com I am planning on making some Gilbertson boxes. I was told to stain the inside of the box and also stain the outside to look like a birch tree. Is there special stain needed to adhere to the plastic PVC?? Thanks From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com Could someone please tell me what kind of pvc pipe is used (down here in the south) for bluebird nestboxes? We have a new member that is interested in making some. He asked me about the thin wall pvc and I am not sure if that is what he needs to use. If anyone in the south uses them, please let me know what kind (thickness) if that matters. Evelyn Cooper From: "Burnham, Barbara" Barbara.Burnham"at"zzz.zzz Does anyone have experience with the Gilbertson PVC box and TRES? I have read that for tree swallows, you must add a "ladder" inside. Their feet are weaker than bluebirds and they need a toehold to get out of the box. I use the Gilbertson PVC box for it's sparrow resistance, and we have the
same pair preparing to nest there again. The female seems to have a problem I guess even birdhouses can have handicapped access. Any opinions or advice would be welcome. Barbara Burnham From: "Rudy Benavides" rbenavid"at"hotmail.com To help her when she's inside the nestbox... maybe you could place a platform on the floor of your nestbox so that when she builds the nest on it, the nest is elevated a little higher than normal and she doesn't have that far to climb out. -Rudy ... From: "Talentino, Michael" MTalentino"at"OFFICEMAX.com You could scratch some ridges on the inside; like rungs/steps on a ladder Mike Talentino 216-471-6298 -----Original Message----- ... To: Barbara.Burnham"at"zzz.zzz, Bluebird-L"at"cornell.edu Barbara and all, I have had several nestings of Tree Sallows in Gilbertson PVC nest boxes and
the birds have had no problems getting out of it. There are some horizontal
grooves etched in the inside, which may help. Mary Roen Barbara.Burnham"at"zzz.zzz wrote: ... From: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com An easy way to put a toehold inside a PVC box is to use Silicone Rubber. Just put it inside (and outside if needed) in steps, (horizontal beads) around 2" long and 3/4" apart. When the Silicone Rubber dries, it will be quite strong and easy to hold on (for the injured/handicapped bird.) Fawzi Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net I have read posts where people mention "muck" at the bottom of the nest or box but I have never seen this. I am in IL. so we have Eastern bluebirds but, even after a nesting is complete and the young have fledged, I pull out a very clean nest and the box is almost spotless. There may be a bit of fecal material but that is rare. The birds on our site build nests from grasses only since the trail sits on a 125 acre grassland. Is this "muck" caused because the nest has gotten wet during the season? Or is it that different species of bluebirds have different elimination habits? If the birds eliminate fecal sacs that the adults carry away, what causes this? Judy Mellin Last summer Linda Violett and I came across a forgotten Gilbertson pvc-pipe
nestbox in a park we monitor together. Inside was a dead, fully feathered
bluebird chick with its feet stuck in the cement-like dried muck thick under it.
In such a small tube with several nestlings there is little room for the parents
to clean the nest. Did you notice if your two dead chicks had their feet stuck
in some way? As you monitor perhaps you could check to see if their feet are
free. The situation you describe is very challenging. Six hundred feet is pretty
far for fledglings to manage on that first flight. Could you stick some perches
in the ground at intervals between the nestbox hole and the tree line? I am
imagining some bean poles with some branches tied to the top for cover. All the
best to you. &nbs! p; Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:52:04 -0800 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Judy and All, A photo was taken of the dead Bluebird nestling in the Gilbertson tube (which Susan Bulger referenced) and can be viewed (last photo) at: http://home.earthlink.net/~lviolett/floorsize.html If you scroll upward in that page link, you will see fecal deposits on a larger 6x5 floor space. With a larger floor space, the layer is thinner and nestlings don't get stuck in it like they do in small boxes. From: KCBSP"at"aol.com In a Message dated 3/10/2003 8:59:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, Is this "muck" caused because the nest has gotten wet during the season? Or ... Judy, I really don't know the answer to that one. I saw one such nesting last year and the little fledgling foot was glued down in the nest material just like 1/2 inch. It was very sticky though not caked like mud. He didn't leave after the others had and so we picked him up and the nest came with him!! Maybe somebody knows why. I remember telling this before, but I never was sure what the "gunk" was. The nest wasn't dirty. He was fine and left the box in the end. To: bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:57:40 -0800 "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net ...
Maynard Sumner
http://mibluebirdsociety.tripod.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galatians 6:7 From: "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net I'm sorry- maybe I didn't make my question clear. What is this "muck" and what causes it? I have never seen it in 13 years of monitoring and would like to know what it is. Judy Mellin ... From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hi Judy, I believe the muck in the nest is caused from runny stool, which can't be removed from the nest. What causes it could be diet or something to do with the food source. This isn't common thank goodness, so don't know if any thing can be done to prevent it. Close monitoring may be all that can be done to save the chicks. In my 26 years with Bluebirds,never had it happen in my Ohio boxes. Joe Huber, Venice Fl. Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL
http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds 27.1171494 N Lo -82.4124222 W Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:45:54 -0800 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Judy, apparently, you did not access the web page I provided on "Floor Size."
It is self-explanatory and shows fecal deposits of an active nest on a large 6x5
inch floor . . . and it shows the muck buildup in the tiny Gilbertson tube where
parents cannot keep the nest clean, there is not enough surface space for the
fecal deposits to dry. A full clutch of Western Bluebird is about 5 nestlings. I
believe sometimes parents are too busy foraging to keep a clean nest, and/or it
has been written that adults need adequate floor space to retrieve fecal
deposits, and I believe it is sometimes caused by too much fruit/liquid in the
diet. For whatever reason when parents cannot keep the nest clean, the muck
accumulates. Large floor space allows the muck to spread in a thin layer no
danger to nestlings. Small boxes, like the Gilbertson tube, forces the muck to
get thicker in a smaller space (thicker layer). In small boxes/tubes, nestlings
have no room to spread out, some get trampled. The trampled nestlings in a mucky
box get pooped on. Look at the photos. Look at the poop of the nestling in the
Gilbertson tube, notice poop on top of its feathers (by its siblings).
http://home.earthlink.net/~lviolett/floorsize.html judymellin wrote: ... Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 00:31:01 -0800 (PST) Joe, Judy, and all, ^ ... From: KCBSP"at"aol.com Dan and All, Last year I lost alot of nestlings as many others did like Dan described. I
found the earthworms in the nest material also. One was actually dried on a live
nestling and it took me a few to figure out what that was. That would make sense
about the nestlings having that change in their diet etc. Thanks Kathy Clark, N ew Cumberland, PA ... From: "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net My point is that many of us have never experienced this problem and I am interested in the cause, not pictures. We have all Peterson's boxes with small floor space and as many as five young per nesting and, in 13 years of monitoring, I have found only extremely clean and dry nests. It seems that this might be a phenomenon caused by mealworm feeding, as several people have posted. It might also be confined to one species of bluebird. The discussion among people who have experienced this is what is important. In my opinion, this is how we can all learn something about the problem. Judy Mellin ... Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:09:41 -0500 I have only seen "muck" in one nestbox and that was my neighbor's. The nestlings were at least 15 days old. It was during early spring, a very cold and rainy week. I believe they all died due to the elements that week. Just the week before they were healthy chirping babies. My neighbor's box has approx. a 1/2" opening all along the top of the back of the box. The wind was coming in that direction and blowing the rain into the box. All the rain made the nest soggy and wet (muck). I have never had this problem in any of my boxes and I get the same wind & rain. My boxes have plenty of ventilation but of a different design. After all the babies have fledged, the nests are as dry as can be. I have convinced my neighbor to take the box down and put up a different one. Ruth Brinckman Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:38:37 -0800 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. Judy and All, the example of clean nests on a trail of "small floor space" with Peterson boxes would confuse those not familiar with the design of the Peterson box. The Peterson box is built with the front of the box angling outward at the front so that the surface area of the nest is *much* larger than the actual floor at the bottom apex. In fact, if you read the information at the beginning of the link I provided on Floor Sizes, you will see my note: "The small floor of the Peterson is not included because the height of nest to the sloped front determines the ultimate surface area." Here is that "Floor Size" link again:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lviolett/floorsize.html judymellin wrote: ... Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:10:34 -0500 Haleya Priest Amherst MA The online Bluebird Reference Guide:
http://birds.cornell.edu/bluebirds/ From: "Robt Rager" rerager"at"bright.net Muck Not sure what each one means by that word. As for me when we have a lot
of rain early in spring, insect scarce BB will track into nest mud, and sure
from worms etc they feed young will end up being muck. Will find this with
abandon chicks and when only one adult is trying to feed young. Never had this
in any nests except when we had real wet weather early for several days. From: "judymellin" judymellin"at"netzero.net OK, since I raised the initial question, I am making a giant leap here but it appears from the postings that this problem is much more prevalent in the West and occurs only occasionally in the East and Midwest. Many of us in the East and Midwest have never seen this or see it only as the result of extremely cold and wet weather in the spring. I'm not sure if I can make any statements from our posts of whether this is a problem with all nestings or only second attempts (which would tend to disprove the assumption that this problem is related to cold, wet weather!) The diet issue is an interesting one and seems to bear further thinking. I would think that I have never seen this happen because we have such a varied habitat within a 125 area grassland that there are always a variety of bugs around. So, I would think that, once again, regional differences have to be taken into consideration in all of our suppositions. And, possibly, Gilbertson boxes may do better in areas other than the West. Judy Mellin From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Re:Muck in boxes: As several people pointed out this can happen to any of the species using our nestboxes. This basically is due to poor removal of fecal sacks by the adults especially when the diet being fed to the young birds is altered to where the membrane will no longer hold the fecal matter. A diet high in fruit or earth worms seems to be the most common culprit in these extra messy nests. Some bluebird parents are simply not as good at keeping the nests clean as other parents. The minimum amount of room needed for each young bird is four square inches of floor space. Anything less than this makes it harder for the adults to keep the nest clean. I usually see two or three really filthy nests each year. KK From: "Zimmerman, Bet" I just put up my first Gilbertson PVC box (painted to look like a birch). Do I need to put up monofilament? HOSPs are everywhere (and I am working hard on controls and have read all the postings on same). Also, how do you monitor this box - do I have to take it apart? Bet Zimmerman From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber) Hello, The Gilbertson PVC box was claimed to be sparrow resistant, but soon after it became popular I started to receive letters asking if I could make a sparrow trap to fit the PVC.. I had to tell every one my trap didn't work in a round box. Eventually Gilbertson came out with his own design of a trap that works in the PVC nest box. Others who have these nest boxes may help you on how to monitor them. There has to be a way. The sparrows you have will test the box for HOSP resistance. Joe Huber, Venice, Fl. Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber ... Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:42:25 -0400 Haleya Priest Amherst MA ... Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:48:23 -0400 I know Floyd makes a good trap. Also the Huber trap is good since it so easy to make and use, but not on round boxes! For the Gilbertson PVC box (and for all types of boxes as well,) I really like the Universal Gilbertson trap. It is made by Steve Gilbertson, and it is now my favorite trap. You can order directly from Steve, his phone number and address below. It is so easy to mount on PVC round boxes, and with a single screw it can be mounted on *any* box. It also has a way to "turn it off" so it stops trapping till you want to "activate it".... Really, very well made. Fawzi. Steve Gilbertson Aitkin, MN 56431 Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland ----- Original Message ----- ... From: "paul kilduff" plkldf"at"hotmail.com Paul Kilduff, Baltimore MD Hope this not redundant as I get the Digest... Gilbertson Universal trap is also available at Wild Birds Unlimited (at White Marsh Mall in Baltimore Co MD, anyway) for $12.99. Man! I love me some Gilbertson Universal Trap! I agree with Fawzi, it's well made, has that neat safety so you can put it in the box and let the female go in and not get trapped, so the male comes to trust it (?). Great action (byoinng!), we've used it in Petersons (make sure to clear away enough of the nest material so it has clearance to spring), Springers, and NABS and it can be used in PVC (which we don't have ). I just started trapping, so I haven't used any others, but I love that Gilbertson trap! best, Fawzi said: For the Gilbertson PVC box ... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:12:55 -0400 Hi Phil, On the small piece of wood that the box is attached to: I put a nail on one side - cut it off till its about 1/4" long. Then I drill a hole just large enough for a aluminum nail on the other side of the wood. Then I drill 2 small holes at the top on either side of the Gilbertson - - one of the holes hooks on to this broken off nail, and I take the aluminum nail and line up the otherside of the Gilbertson, with the other hole on the small piece of wood and put the nail in. So this way, I just have to pull the alumn nail out, and unhook it from the other side off the broken nail and I can get in and out of the box pretty simply. Someone taught me this a long time ago. Can't remember who. :-) H -------------------------------------------- The online Bluebird Reference Guide:
http://birds.cornell.edu/bluebirds/ ---------- ... From: "Burnham, Barbara" Barbara.Burnham"at"zzz.zzz Phil, -----Original Message----- ... From: "Zimmerman, Bet" http://www.entrancesbysandy.com/id46.htm . Has an interesting inbox trap insert too. Bet from CT From: MuskratBob"at"aol.com, MuskratBob"at"aol.com Someone on this list was gonna send me pictures of BB boxes made from PVC but I don't remember who it was. I'm doing a Nest Box restoration project for the golf course I live on and I'm trying to explore different type boxes. Anyone with experience with these boxes or info on them please let me know. I'm hoping that they would be cheaper to make than wooden boxes and hold up better as well. Thanks, Bob in NE Tenn. From: Keith & Sandy Kridler, txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net In the Bluebird Monitor's Guide there is a section of the book that shows PVC nestboxes. I had to work yesterday on a commercial job and as I was leaving the Electrical contractor was unloading "junk" 4" PVC electrical conduit and throwing it into the dumpster. This is thicker wall pipe than normal Schedule 40 PVC water pipe and it comes in a very nice shade of gray. He gave me enough 4" pipe to make 48 nestboxes AND I saved about 100 pounds of PVC from going into the dump. I just got a call this morning from another job site wanting me to come by and pick up more PVC pipe for nestboxes. The first PVC nestboxes I made in 1975 are still being used by bluebirds. KK From: Keith & Sandy Kridler, txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net 4" diameter PVC pipe make the perfect sized nestboxes for Chickadee's and Titmice. The black PVC and dark gray color's work best in areas where they will be shaded all day and blend in well under heavy tree canopy to attract those above mentioned woodland birds. The thick walled PVC nestboxes resist squirrel and woodpecker damage better than a wood nestbox. The small floor size of a 4" PVC nestbox does make it really too small for even a brood of four bluebirds IF you go by each young bird needing four square inches of floor space. This size spacing allows the adult birds to keep the nest cleaner and allow more exercise room for the young birds. BUT you can use 4" PVC pipe and make horizontal PVC nestboxes about 16" long and the bluebirds will normally build in the back end of the pipe and as the young birds grow they will be able to leave the nest and spread out in the whole length of the pipe nestbox. When cold they can still huddle up together back in the nest. City water departments are a great source for the larger PVC pipe. Normally the larger the pipe the thicker it will be! You can make GREAT duck and owl boxes from the 12" or 24" diameter pipe but these get really heavy in longer lengths. 6" diameter PVC is a good size for bluebirds and 8" diameter is also very common. PVC is color coded now. Black is for low or no pressure and is used for some drains. Gray is for electrical and designed for use up to 90*C. It is often used for lawn sprinkler uprights. The new "Hot Purple" color is for non-potable water. Used for water lines containing raw water from rivers, lakes or sewer systems. The blue-green is for sewer lines. There are also some PVC pipe in different colors like tan or Almond... Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com I just had an e-mail sent to me about a person in Ohio using 1/8” thin wall PVC pipe for nestboxes. Then, they complain about so many loses in 2003. NABS recommends ¼ ” thin wall PVC pipe. I think I would throw them away and start over. Evelyn Cooper Delhi , LA From: RBALTRUNAS "at"cs.com [mailto:RBALTRUNAS "at"cs.com] Hi everyone, I am new to this email and I love all your emails. I would like some feedback from you experienced folks. 1. 4" PVC pipe makes a low labor nesting box and I read somewhere on the NABS site I think that Sparrows don't like them. Is anyone using them and what are the results vs wood boxes? 2. I only have 5 boxes right now and plan more. I have put them on the north side of trees to keep them out of the intense Florida Sun. Anyone have problems with boxes in direct sun expecially southern states getting too hot? Ron From: Kathy [mailto:howbizr "at"gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 3:06 PM Subject: Re: PVC "boxes" and direct Sun I haven't used PVC myself, but in my favorite guide book, Bluebird Monitor's Guide to Bluebirds and Other Small Cavity Nesters, they say some people claim fewer HOSP nest in them. They were stating the concensus is mixed results, probably some improvement, but not a guarantee. Does anyone know if there are statistics available online? I do know generally speaking, shade, insulation, and vents on the box are the basic concerns. So, place the front of the box in such a way that the hole isn't facing into the rain (whatever your general weather pattern is), but isn't getting too much direct sun. If rain is more of an issue in the beginning of the season, but sun later, you could potentially rotate the box? I get the impression that for hot weather, the big issue is the vents in the box - small slits between the side of the box and the roof panel. Our box design only has one slip, about 3/4", and I think that's the most common. Even though Ohio is substantially farther north than Florida, we get a week or two of 100s every summer, and the humidity can be horrendous, as I'm sure you know down there, so the heat is a concern for us too. Ron From: Lawrence Herbert [mailto:lherbert "at"4state.com] Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 12:20 PM Subject: HOFI vs EABL ...I think the PVC pipe for nest boxes might get a bit warm in June and July. Good birding, Larry H. Joplin MO. From: Kathy [mailto:howbizr "at"gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:36 PM Subject: Re: PVC "boxes" and direct Sun http://www.media.nabluebirdsociety.org/Bluebird/black1.htm Actually, I just found a great article on this topic on accident. The highlights if you don't want to read the whole paper are: Bluebird eggs/nestlings max out temperature wise at 107F inside the box. Thus, it appears that a PVC box reaches this max internally at about 95F outside the box, and a wood box would reach the 107F internal at about 102F external (I'm approximating from the pictures given). So PVC is slightly hotter, but not a whole lot. I suspect, although I don't know, that a thicker pipe would be cooler if you have the money to invest. Hopefully, your EABL won't be raising young on many hot, hot days. However, if you expect this kind of weather, maybe the boxes need to be closer to trees. This might make the boxes less ideal for EABL and more for house wrens (HOWR?) and HOSP, although it sounds better than having the babies bake! Good luck, and I hope it helps. From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Re: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1218 Dear Jeannette, Bruce and Friends, Not to besmirch those that like to use PVC tubing for cavity nest sites, but I agree with Bruce that there's not much plastic being grown by mother nature. Some plastic products are wonderful (i.e. the Super Gourd a great product for PM colonies), but these plastic products are specially engineered for a specific function, where as PVC pipe is meant for something else entirely. Wild Wing Company does use 4" PVC tubing as a "Deadfall" component to our Starling Hotel traps (see our web site and scroll down products page to view Starling Hotel.) Note the key word "Deadfall", as the inner walls of the 4" PVC tubing is far to slippery for European Starlings and House Sparrows to claim up and escape the holding cage at the base of the Starling Hotel trap. Again, I agree with Bruce that the slippery inner walls of PVC piping could be to challenging for birds inside making these PVC cavity nests sites a miniature version of a "Deadfall" similar to the aforementioned. For those that want to continue using PVC for cavity nest sites, the "Deadfall" could be easily eliminated by simply scratching horizontal lines under the entry hole with a box cutting knife (on the inside and outside of the PVC nest tubing), so the birds can enter and exit with little difficulty. However, wood products are more natural for building nesting boxes, and if you use 3/4" or 1" thick planking, wood is a better insulator during winter months and breaths during the summer months (unlike plastics) making wood a better and safer investment for the preservation of our native cavity nesters. ... John Schuster From: RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com [mailto:RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com] Hi I have two experimental PVC boxes (6"diameter). I put little ladders inside: one inch by four inches with cuts running like ladder steps. No nesters yet but I think anything inside can just climb out. Ron From: Chuck Jensen [mailto:cjensen"at"dts9000.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:03 AM Subject: Tres Trap Jeanette, There's no reason to abandon perfectly serviceable PVC boxes, especially if the BBs like them. Take a small piece of hardware cloth and cut to size to its maybe 3" wide and position on the inside of the box just below the hole. Drill a hole a couple inches below the hole and use one of the big aluminum pop-rivets and washers that are used for fastening gutter down spouts to lock it in place. If you need to remove the wire anytime in the future, its easy to drill out the soft aluminum rivet. That will allow the Tres and baby BBs to crawl out with no-problem. P.S. Make sure the edges of the hardware cloth that are cut with a snips are curled into the side of the box a little. These snipped wires are razor sharp. No point in slicing-n-dicing our occupants. Chuck From: Chuck Jensen [mailto:cjensen"at"dts9000.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:15 AM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1218 John, I understand where you're coming from but the proposition that there is no PVC in nature, so its not an appropriate use. The problem with this thought process is there are no wood screws or nails in nature, there are no steel posts nor predator baffles in nature, I don't recall of seeing in meal worm feeds loaded with meal worms every day in nature and I don't see any S&S traps in nature. So, we see a lot of things that are beneficial that are not 'natural'. And not all natural things are beneficial; polio, black plague, tetnus, thought we've developed unnatural remedies and preventatives for these scourages. So it is with the PVC pipe--not natural but useful. Cheap, readily available and BBs seem to like them. It looks like the shortcoming of PVC is the slick sides, but this is easily countered with aggressive scoring or, even better, hardware cloth strategically positioned below the opening. So, if BBs like PVC pipe nest, let them be the judge of what's 'naturally' good. Let's just make sure the PVC nests are safe for the wayward Tres. From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1218 Chuck I read an article by Dick Tuttle a couple of years ago that he felt certain his high rate of loss of Chickadees was because of the thin wall PVC pipe nestboxes used and the weather was so severe. They are not popular in our state. I think Keith uses some and he would know more about how they stand the heat. One person I know does not like the chemicals used to make plastic and does not think it is safe. Evelyn Cooper, President From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:20 AM Subject: Re: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1218/heat PVC/chlorine water Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas The North American Bluebird Society used some of my white PVC nestboxes along with about 17 different styles of nestboxes way back in 1979 for heat comparisons and they showed that schedule 40 or 1/4" thick walled round white PVC nestboxes were COOLER than ANY other natural wood color/no paint 3/4" thick wood nestbox that was tested. The white PVC nestboxes heated up slower in full sun and also gave off heat quicker/cooled down quicker in the afternoon than the wood styles tested. These heat tests and the heat tests of nestbox styles Larry Zeleny conducted in the late 1960's were published in the first couple of years of quarterly journals of Sialia. PVC water pipes are what most people receive their drinking water in. PVC is considered to be safer than galvanized steel, copper, lead, cement or asbestos water piping commonly used all across the world that is still being replaced with PVC. PVC is less reactive to sodium hypochlorite (chlorine gas OK city water has small amounts of chlorine in it. Supposedly safe for humans and pets and other mammals to drink and bathe in. Our drought forced me to net up gallons of tadpoles from my rapidly drying swamp and carry them to pools of water in our creek that is also drying up! I rinsed and filled up a "tank" I use to raise tree frogs in with city water, placed some leopard frog and toad tadpoles and young frogs in it with four legs but still with tails and the "fresh" city water only 12 hours out of the tap killed every swamp creature I placed in the tank. OK I know fish and tadpoles can die in "fresh" city water but what about HUMMINGBIRDS? They are so fragile and some of this treated city water is so strong with chlorine could it possibly be harmful to their kidneys? We boil the water to fill hummingbird feeders to remove some of the chlorine & kill organisms the chlorine does not kill but should we sit out the water to "gas off" or breathe for a few days before boiling it? Our city water department is running above capacity and Caustic soda and chlorine levels vary within the system as they attempt to meet excess water demands. A few years ago a huge slug of Caustic Soda sickened or burned many people on our city water system when an injector malfunctioned and pumped too much into the water system. KK From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1218/heat PVC/chlorine water Notice Keith says "thick" walled, not "thin walled". I think this might be Evelyn From: Chuck Jensen [mailto:cjensen"at"dts9000.com] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 12:38 PM Subject: RE: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1218/heat PVC/chlorine water No, I think you're on the wrong track Evelyn. The difference in the coefficient of heat transfer between Schedule 40 and Schedule 20 pipe is inconsequential. The reason PVC is cooler is the color, not the thickness. Wood, due to its brown color is a heat sponge. Though wood is a relatively poor conductor of heat (as is PVC), the heat gain on the surface is so great, that the interior eventually suffers from the heat transfer. By comparison, the white PVC will reflect in excess of 90% of the heat from sun exposure. So, while the PVC, thin or thick-walled, will transfer a small fraction of the heat, there is so little heat to transfer that the net effect is the nest box stays cooler with thin or thick-walled PVC. As far as the 'harmful' vapors from PVC, this also is a red herring. The plastic vapors that we are always concerned about are the 'plasticizers' that are put in carpet, auto parts and other molded plastic parts to enhance flexibility and durability. This is not applicable to PVC pipe. In fact, plasticizers in PVC pipe would be counterproductive to the intended use of the pipe. PVC is highly stable and near-inert, though it will, after years degrade from UV exposure. Even that characteristic can be countered by additives which may the PVC UV-stabile. Finally, if the proposition that PVC off-gassing is harmful to birds, then I would expect purple martins to be dying by the thousands, by the millions. Not happening. Even though 90%+ of the new gourds put out for PUMAs are molded PVC, I've yet to hear suggested that a single martin death was attributable to these hundreds of thousand plastic gourds. Certainly, if any had occurred, it would have been a hot topic on http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewforum.php3?f=2. Not. I think if we look at this objective and rely on facts and observed data, rather than 'beliefs', we can reasonably conclude that PVC nest boxes are cooler than wood and the PVC represents no credible health threat to the occupants, as long as an appropriate exit method is provided by scoring or hardware wire. Agree, Chuck From: Amy Louise Marr [mailto:MARR_AMY_LOUISE"at"Lilly.com] Hi http://www.birdsilo.com/products.htm I ordered one to try out, although I might not attract anything this year. I have used wooden block guards on my other (wooden) boxes to avert avian predators. Would the lack of an extended entry on these be a concern? How exactly do the birds gain access to the young. Do they stand on the roof or hover at the entry hole? Am considering these for a 25 box trail. If anyone has any experience with them, or potential concerns, please respond. Amy Louise Marr, Greenfield, IN From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:40 AM Subject: FW: BLUEBIRD-L digest 1218/heat PVC/chlorine water This came from a person in the "alternative energy design and research business". I had asked the question if "thick wall" was more efficient than "thin wall" 2) The generally recognized engineering formula used to calculate the overall heat transfer coefficient for a wall is calculated using: 1 / U A = 1 / h1 A1 + dxw / k A + 1 / h2 A2 (1) where: For example, the thermal conductivity, " k, " for some typical materials at When I asked it there would be any significant difference in PVC and wood, he wrote: One of the variations that I didn't develop was that using wood or PVC is hardly any better than using sheetmetal. When you do the math, the differences are certainly there, but nowhere near as impressive as one might think given their transfer values. > Not enough difference to get excited about, but does that mean that It means that they heat up faster than wood, and cool off faster as well. Now, what the question posed yesterday didn't address is the ability of the materials to intercept and absorb various levels of radiation. The simple version is that something light will absorb less sun energy than something dark. He wound up saying the argument about which kind of box is better is "a lot of hot air." :-) ! >From me: Now, this all said, I still wonder if the fact that the PVC cools off faster could have some effect in the extreme cold weather and be one reason more babies are lost. Mr. Dick Tuttle in Ohio seemed to think so. He said he would be going back to wooden nestboxes. Evelyn Cooper From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:07 AM Subject: cutting and using PVC pipe Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas ALWAYS use eye protection and ear protection when working around saws and drills! If you are not comfortable working around equipment pay someone to cut out parts! Control dust and smoke in the work area with exhaust fans! You can use liquid nails adhesive to create toe holds in PVC pipe. Spread this out with a plastic trowel made to place floor adhesive for sheet goods. For a quick raccoon/cat guard install a 9" length of 4" PVC pipe to the front of the nestbox so that the bluebirds have to crawl through the entire length of the pipe to reach the entrance hole to the nestbox. Remember raccoons are very strong and the pipe and nestbox have to be able to withstand this animal clawing and chewing on the nestbox all night long! Also see parts of this thread under heat. From: Amy Louise Marr [mailto:MARR_AMY_LOUISE"at"Lilly.com] Hi All Well, I knew it'd come sooner or later: Amy Marr From: Cher [mailto:bluelist"at"localnet.com] A couple of folks have made incidental references to "plastic" Of those who did use them, did you buy them ready-made, or make them yourself? Cher From: Robert Barron [mailto:rebarron"at"gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? Cher,
I use it for the roof and floor. Advantages are that it is completely water and weather proof, easy to cut, screw, drill etc.
Disadvantages are that it is expensive and comes in limited dimensions. I haven't seen any commercial ones, so I make my own. I've had very good luck with them and given many to several people on this list. Maybe they'll chime in with how they worked for them.
Rob Barron From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com]
I am somewhat familiar with plastic lumber (also called poly lumber). My personal preference is that poly is good for birdfeeders and things but not for birdhouses. One reason is that a poly nestbox is not as cool as a wooden nestbox. I have done a few temperature tests and it was 3-5 degrees hotter in the poly one. Poly has one other down side, it warps after time. Some of this is a problem on how it is fastened together. You always want to use screws in poly, not nails, or staples. I am by no means against using poly. I build a mealworm feeder out of poly. It makes for much easier cleaning. The main thing I don't like about poly is that is not as beautiful as wood grain. I like the wood look, as poly is solid one color or another. Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:25 AM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? http://www.rubiconinternationaltx.com/products.html The link above is a company that sells a lot of poly things, I know a few people who build for them and have inspected some of there products. They happen to overstate how good poly is though. Also, a couple of there products are not very well designed. But, if you look on there website you can find out a lot of the pros of using poly. -- Bluebirds 'n Birdfeeders Daniel Smoker 1728 W Main St. Ephrata, PA 17522 (717) 738-1927 bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? Three to five degrees could really make a difference. Is this a different kind of plastic from PVC? Some folks in the northern part of our nation use PVC for bird houses. I've not seen any in my state used though.
One time my grandson made a dog house out of a plastic tank he cut in half and it was so hot the dogs could not stay in it. This just turned me off plastic to use for anything to live or stay in it. I think your idea of feeders would be fine.
Evelyn From: Kelley Family [mailto:herbsho"at"centurytel.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:55 AM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? I recently saw my first all plastic BB house at a bird store.
It is bright white and well constructed. The store owner said it was NABS approved.
When I questioned the insulating value of plastic he said that it had been tested by pointing a heat sensing "gun" at the house and it did welll in the test. He just shrugged his shoulders when I asked it a thermometer had been placed inside the box. The white should better reflect sunlight but based on past discussions I need more information. The way the inside of the house is very smooth and did not have kerfs for the babies. It also did not have much roof overhang and did not have a predator block over the entrance hole. It is a side opening box and I felt too shallow in depth. The sides extend down below the floor will slide over the top of a 4X4 post. I like wooden boxes so not a box for me but clearly a low maintenance material with the over-all design/construction giving the look of an attractive box. With all that said, I believe Plastic boxes are in our future as new products enter the market. A foam sandwich, two pieces of hard plastic on the outside with a layer of insulating foam between them, could provide even better insulation and lower maintenace than wood. I have not seen such a product.
Herb Kelley
East Central Missouri
From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
There are all types of plastics and metal covered foam insulations out there now used in construction. Many of the recycled plastics used for wood decks are actually mostly sawdust mixed with a little bit of molten plastic and extruded into different lumber sizes under very high pressure and when it cools it hardens. As someone mentioned when you have really hot weather then this stuff tends to soften and or expand and or warp a little. This material sagging is a HUGE problem for "wood deck" installers but normally would not be a problem for the smaller pieces used in nestboxes.
Weight of these nestboxes could be extreme as the decking lumber is really heavy per board foot. I fear that over time that if the sawdust is not mixed perfectly and totally saturated with liquid plastic that this material over time could soak up water and even a little moisture would make it swell up like regular wood and you would need to cut down the door width a little to allow for expansion later. Squirrels can still chew up this material and enlarge the entrance holes, I doubt if woodpeckers would ever peck through these thicker boards.
I actually like to make wood doors on my nestboxes at least 1/16" narrower than the opening so that even when wet they open smoothly.
Solid plastics of many different types are now used as partitions in commercial bathrooms. They come in all colors and are very stable due to lack of expansion. There are now a lot of foam cored plastics with hard surfaces used as cabinet materials and again these would make good nestbox material.
There are many different types of plastics used that have aluminum laminated to both sides of them and these are now being used to sheath the sides of sky scrapers as they cut down on weight and reflect heat from the sun.
I really like the PVC fencing for livestock! The posts come in either 5"x5" or 4"x4" square hollows just right for nestboxes for chickadees or bluebirds. They come in a couple of light colors besides a pure white. The PVC fence lumber already comes with a 3/4" or 1" air gap between the sides of the boards (they are hollow with ribs) you can use PVC cement to glue and screw the pieces together and I now have PVC nestboxes made from scrap 6" water pipe that have raised bluebirds for 30 years! You can build extremely lightweight nestboxes from these materials and have excellent thermal resistance properties. Again squirrels can chew out the entrance holes.
Heat and cold of plastics versus wood or metal: COLOR is the number one factor in any object gaining heat when it is placed in full sun. Once the sun shines on a wood, metal or plastic nestbox or dog house you have to have ventilation to remove the excess heat or the heat contained in the material has to radiate back into the air. I left my ice chest in the back of my work truck sitting in the full sun last weekend and two canned drinks heated up and exploded due to high heat. I see dogs chained up in full sun, dig holes and hide UNDER their dog houses. Our birds sometimes don't have options so when you experiment with nestbox materials and new designs check out how the new boxes perform by the simple use of thermometers.
Purple Martin Housing is interesting as the aluminum houses placed in full sun have walls that are only .035" thick or about 1/32nd of an inch but are as cool as 3/4" wood walled nestboxes if they are ventilated correctly. (Of course each compartment has about a 2" diameter entrance hole to help hot air escape. KK
From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 9:28 AM Subject: recycled foam cored nestboxes Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas
Plastic 1/2 gallon wide mouth insulated water jugs are about 4" in diameter and you can drill a 1&1/2" entrance hole about 7" off the floor and you now have a double walled, insulation foam core nestbox that you can unscrew the lid to check and clean the nestbox.
You can use a plastic three gallon water cooler and drill a 3" diameter entrance hole in the side up about 9" above the floor and have about an 8" diameter screech owl or kestrel nestbox if you install perches inside and outside the nestbox. Again these are very lightweight and the five gallon size would make a wood duck sized box. They make ice chests big enough for Barn Owls:-))
These can be had cheap at garage sales or go dumpster diving or put an add in the Thrifty Nickel type newspapers.
Oil based paints stick pretty good to these plastics. KK
From: DrDodson"at"aol.com [mailto:DrDodson"at"aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? I live in MidMissouri just outside of Jefferson City. I started a trail on my 50 acres this summer. I put up a variety of boxes. The hands down favorite of the birds seemed to be the Gilbertson PVC boxes that I got from Steve Gilbertson at gilbertsonnestbox.com. They are very easy to put up, easy to monitor and inexpensive. Go to his website if you want to see what they look like. They are made from thin pvc that attaches to a wood roof. It is designed to fit on a 1/2 in EMT pipe over a rebar rod. It is painted to look like birch on the outside and has kerns on the inside. I can not debate the theoretic issues relating to this box, but it was chosen much more often than any over box that I used. The pipe mounting itself has some predator deterrent, but I usually added a stovepipe baffle, some sand at the base (per Jack Finch) and some tanglefoot on the pipe. Chickadees, Eastern bluebirds, Treeswallows, and Prothonatory warblers all used these boxes successfully for me this summer. Interestingly the house wrens would build stick nests in these, but less so than in the wood boxes and none of these had a true nest completed by a house wren. No house sparrows attempted to nest in these, but the only house sparrow nesting attempt I encountered was in my purple martin house (which sadly never got purple martins in this its first year up). I do not want to over sell this, but this was by far the most successful box on my trail this year and the birds had NABS boxes, Petersons, chalets and others to chose from. From: Robert Barron [mailto:rebarron"at"gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:22 PM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? Hi Jack,
That's really useful information. I wonder if the birch appearance is significant. I built a few PVC boxes when I lived in upstate NY, but used larger diameter pipe. Nothing but HOSP used them, but I lived on a mountainside where the only silver and white birch trees were casualties of a tornado that totaled my house in 1989. No birch trees remained when I put up nest boxes. Maybe if swallows can open garden store doors Bluebirds have some collective memory of selecting brittle, short lived trees in tornado areas.
I think there is so much variation between different parts of the country and even different parts of large states like Texas, that there is no one best practice for the whole country. We need to keep experimenting and communicating our results to the group.
You're providing great information. I wonder how much regional variation there is. Some really thorough, well done scientific papers I read daily rely on a statistical sample of 40-60 birds in a single site compared to a similar number 50 miles away. Darwin's Finches on one of the Galapagos Islands showed an evolutionary trend toward smaller beak sizes that enabled them to eat smaller seeds. This happened in less than 20 years after larger birds were introduced that competed with them for the larger seeds that had always been their diet. They had to find a new niche to survive.
If we could find that all three varieties of Bluebirds would use PVC nest cavities it would sure make things a lot simpler.
Thanks for the great info.
Rob Barron
From: DrDodson"at"aol.com [mailto:DrDodson"at"aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? Interestinly there are very few birch trees in Mid Missouri, and none on my farm, but the birds still really liked these "boxes" at least on my land.
Jack From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:50 PM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? In response to the question about whether PVC is different than poly lumber. Yes, it is quite different. PVC is quite a hard plastic as you might know. I make wren houses ( http://www.bluebirdsnbirdfeeders.com/Wren%20Houses.html ) out of vinyl, which is basicly like PVC, and they are slightly hotter than wood. I do have procell decking lumber on the roof, which when it comes to heat, it is almost the same. I do recommend to my customers though that if possible to mount the wren house in at least a semi shaded area. From: evelyn cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: RE: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? Daniel, did you use thermometers in your boxes to see what the temp was and how much difference there was in the materials? Keith encouraged us to do that and I think it is very important to do it. I put them in boxes in full sun and also in some that are semi-shade. I put them in boxes with heat shields and those without to see the difference. Evelyn From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com]
Yes, I used a digital thermometer and checked them frequently. I put them in direct sun. Wood was definitely the coolest. The nestbox I tested was the one I sell, which is made out of 1" thick cypress wood and has adequate ventilation. On the poly lumber and vinyl ones I tested, the vinyl one with the procell decking roof was not as hot as the poly lumber one. There was about 3 degrees difference from wood to vinyl. And about another 1.5 - 2 degrees from vinyl to poly. It depends a lot on how the birdhouses are made that you are testing. Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 7:36 AM Subject: Re: Nestboxes made from recycled plastic? Bluebirds 'n Birdfeeders Daniel Smoker From: Tree Greenwood [mailto:doctree"at"crosslink.net] On Wed 17 Jan 2007 at 11:45, "Bet Zimmerman" (Photo of the Bluebird Villa alone at -> http://www.skmfg.com/images/bbvglrg.jpg > (The one I got is white.) ... There are 2 versions of the Bo Villa. You got one designed for Purple Martins. > ... It's BIG. Unfortunately it didn't come with the wooden guard, and Hi, Bet and all, The 'Bo Villa' was designed for Purple Martins but the manufacturers got lots of reports of Bluebirds nesting in them and saw a larger market. I use lots of different kinds of cavities including the plastic Bo gourds (because they're on sale so No Bluebirds nested in any of my plastic housing. I know that House Sparrows _LOVE_ the Bo Villa. I keep the Bo Villa entries plugged until after I've trapped most of the House Sparrows that invariably move into my area in search for homes every spring. After some years of experience with plastic, I paint the interior of all the gourds and houses with a dark color Krylon spray paint. Krylon is specifically created to adhere to plastic and, if you wash and dry the plastic well, it works. In my experience, all cavity-nesting birds prefer a dark interior. It also keeps the inside somewhat cooler by blocking the translucence that would otherwise create a greenhouse effect and maybe excessive heat. I've also tried 'Great Stuff' So go ahead and give the plastic housing a try. Take care, R J 'Tree' Greenwood From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Thanks Tree! I should have checked with the list first! I'll make these mods except for the Great Stuff (sounds messy). I'm thinking a Van Ert trap would work in this box? After several years of continuous passive and active HOSP control, I only had one HOSP nest attempt last year. From what I had read, bluebirds don't prefer the plastic gourds, but I figured I'd give it a try out here. The birds on my trails get lots of choices (NABs, Gilbertson, Gilwood, Peterson, TX Bluebird Society, this year I'm going to try a tree branch (horizontal), and some other weird boxes). I always wonder when someone says that bluebirds use an atypical spot to nest (like a newspaper tube) if they had other choices available. I called S&K and they are going to send me the bluebird face guard and non-slip floor insert. Their website was very difficult to navigate! But the box was cheap - $11.95 (unfortunately + $6.00 shipping.) Bet from CT From: Dottie Price [mailto:yumyumkatts"at"voyager.net] Please see message below from our BB Club President, Dan Sparks: Thank you, Dottie, Brown County, Indiana From: Daniel Sparks [mailto:b4bluebirds"at"yahoo.com] Hi Dottie, From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Worley box Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Light freeze predicted for the morning. The boxes are actually really nicely made and should last a lifetime. KK From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:52 AM Subject: RE: Worley box Keith, I notice you emphasize "heavy wall". Could you tell us why? Thanks, From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:28 AM Subject: PVC pipe wall thickness Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas SDR PVC is Sewer and Drain pipe and this is normally made with walls of the pipe that is only 1/16" thick. It can be rigid wall or made from hard & brittle PVC or it can be a fairly soft walled plastic that is more flexible. There is SDR 35 PVC that is about 1/8" thickness in the walls of the pipe. Then there is Schedule 40 PVC pipe and these are designed to hold high pressure, up to 400 (& above) pounds of pressure per square inch of wall. Electrical PVC pipe, that designed to protect underground electric lines is made from a medium dark gray colored PVC and I have some of this in 6" diameter that has walls almost 1/2" thick. PVC pipe made for raw untreated water is supposed to be a bright purple colored PVC. PVC sewer pipe for cities is supposed to be some shade of aqua marine blue and this is normally 1/4" thick walled sewer pipe. With PVC pipe you gain just a little heat resistance with the thicker walled pipe but you gain a LOT of durability with the thicker walls. Squirrels and rodents have a harder time chewing the entrance holes larger on the thicker walled PVC pipe nestboxes. It is easier for a European Starling or House Sparrow to squeeze into a small hole that is only 1/16" walled compared to a 1/4" or 1/2" thick walled entrance hole. It is actually easier to drill correct sized entrance holes in the thicker walled PVC pipe than it is to hand drill thin walled SDR PVC. The first batch of 6" diameter PVC nestboxes I made from scrap pipe off of a construction job back in 1975 are still being used by cavity nesters more than 30 years later. I visited with Steve Gilbertson on the phone a couple of weeks back and he was busy out in his shop making PVC nestboxes for this spring. This year he is making two different styles of PVC nestboxes with ones shipped to southern states having more ventilation than the ones he will sell to the northern states. He is located just west of Duluth Minnesota and they were cancelling the Jan. ice fishing contests because the warm winter had left the smaller, deeper lakes with ice too thin to walk on. From: Larry A Broadbent [mailto:rockets"at"cogeco.ca] Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Worley box The Slippin Silos are made with thin wall 6" PVC. I have one. Not heavy wall. Larry Broadbent |
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