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Nestboxes Made from Plastic Bottles/Milk Cartons/Coffee CansIn addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website:
From: Karen Louise Lippy [brdbrain"at"superpa.net] [Note from webmaster: see related thread on Boxes Made of Cardboard (Birdinabox)] Jim, We have had some problems with our raccoons here in the state in the past few years. Rabies and distemper took a heavy toll of these mammals and the population dropped dramatically. Trappers said it was hardly worth setting traps since they were catching so few. There was also a disease that caused paralysis and blindness in raccoons which was transferable to people, I believe. I think I read something about this in the PA Game Commission's magazine. They have recovered somewhat in the past few years, but rabies is still a recurirng problem in the area. We have a trail with about 170 boxes at a state park. Before this past year, only 3-4 boxes had been raided by raccoons. This year a raccoon checked boxes on posts on a regular basis in one area. Boxes hanging in trees were ignored. The raccoon even climbed up to check out a bat box which was newly erected. Muddy paw prints went up the post. I don't feel coons are too bad a problem in our area, but I realize they could
be. I did put one of these cardboard boxes on the fence in my yard this past
summer. No birds used it, but it is still in pretty decent shape. I live in
town, so I thought I'd try it here.... From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com I just saw an e-mail on another list serve stating this person had many, many plastic drink bottles he had painted and they would make inexpensive nestboxes. He was telling everyone to contact him off list. I could not help but post and state that plastic drink bottles or any kind of plastic container is not acceptable and it is because of the insulation factor. I also gave the thickness required for nestboxes and the second roof and heat shields we use. I cringed to think of how many babies would be suffering this summer! Bluebirds and cavity nesting birds don't know any better, but we do and should!!! The education process never ends! Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA. From: Bruce Burdett, blueburd"at"tds.net To: emcooper"at"bayou.com; 'BLUEBIRD-L' Subject: Re: Plastic Bottles For Nestboxes Evelyn, et al, Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Daniel Sparks, b4bluebirds"at"yahoo.com Hi all, At this point in the discussion, I would like the mention that milk cartons have been used successfully for years as nestboxes for prothonotary warblers...noting that PRWA nests are almost always in the shade. Food for discussion... Dan Sparks Nashville, IN From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com Yes, they do use the milk cartons in the southern part of the state for Prothonotary Warblers. They are put very low to the ground. Well, after I saw nestboxes for PRWA's from someone on this list, I can say, I would use the nestboxes. Even in the shade down here, it gets almost unbearable sometimes. Someone asked me at our very first annual meeting about using them for Bluebirds and I told them I had to say that I could not recommend them. ...Do you all think plastic or paper milk cartons are acceptable for Prothonotary Warblers or any species that nest in the shade? These nesting apparatus do not have guards. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society ... From: Larry A Broadbent, rockets"at"mnsi.net Evelyn, plastic or paper milk cartons for Prothonotary Warblers? ABSOLUTELY NOT! The Prothonotary Warbler is on Canada's EXTREME Endangered Species List. There were only 16 nesting pair in all of Canada. All of them in the province of Ontario, and most of these less than a half hour drive from me in Rondeau Provincial Park. Small wood versions of NABS boxes and hollowed out logs are the best choice for Prothonotary Warblers. P.S. My friend ( Don Wills) who has the #1 Bluebird trail in Ontario, is on the Prothonatary Warbler recovery team for Canada. I will try and send you a photo of his nestboxes for Prothonatary Warblers. He has a display of his nestboxes for Prothonatary Warblers at the ROM Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, Ontario. I sent Don's Will's Prothonotary Warbler nest records for the past several years, into TBN at Cornell... Do you have Tree Swallows in LA? IF so would you consider using plastic milk cartons even if they were available in a 4" x 4" size for your Tree Swallows? I would think that your answer would be NO WAY. So why in the world would anyone use plastic milk cartons for cavity nesting birds such as the Prothonotary Warblers, which normally nestin woodpecker holes or natural cavities in trees in flooded areas of bush? Regards, Larry A Broadbent Chatham, ON Canada From:
Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com No, we don't have Tree Swallows in LA, but I can assure you that I would not provide plastic or paper for any cavity nesting bird. (or any bird for that matter) It can get very hot even on the first nesting cycle and that is not the only factor. I just think the people in south LA that are so lucky to be able to raise them could have many more if they would build nestboxes and have guards on them. I have heard they do nest up here and if we get one at the State Park by the Lake in bluebird nestboxes we have provided, I will be beside myself. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Bruce Burdett, blueburd"at"tds.net velyn, Larry, John, et al, We all know from experience that Bluebirds, and others, will sometimes nest in the most unlikely places imaginable, - flimsy cartons, mailboxes, open-topped fenceposts, orchard trunk-protector tubes, hats , old tires, tin cans, - you name it. But our responsibility as Bluebirders is to provide the birds with the OPTIMUM nesting-places, - the very best, the most secure, and the most permanent that we can contrive, given the materials and the tools and the skills that we have. We are trying to IMPROVE the odds of their survival by providing cavities that are as nearly perfect as possible. Paper and plastic milk and juice containers might be cheap, and they might be easy, but they leave the nesting birds at the mercy of both weather and predators. Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Ylana Moye I received a phone call from my sister in San Diego today with some alarming news. I have been discussing bird houses with her for the past few weeks, what works what doesn't. She called to share with me that the Animal Planet channel had shown how to use coffee cans as bird houses. I suggested that this might not be a good idea unless they were put up in the shade. I intend to discourage her from using them all together, but didn't want to be a bossy big sister. She said they suggested hanging them on the side of your house. Lana, Northeast Oklahoma From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com I don't care who would recommend coffee cans to me, I would not use them. And I would not worry about being a bossy sister. It would be worth saving bluebirds or any cavity nesting bird. Hey, I just took a verbal beating on another list serve because some of the big wigs still think the plastic bottles and cardboard boxes are good choices for nestboxes. But, you know what, the guy that offered them to the public posted yesterday that it was irresponsible of him to offer them to the public and also that he could see my concern about that and them not having guards. I begin to get positive comments from others for my stand and I also gained a member and another person wrote me and is coming to our upcoming nestbox workshop and meeting in Baton Rouge. It is like some of the experts have said on here, the birds don't know better, but we do. We should provide the best for them. While I am on the subject, do any of you experts know if any studies made by Cornell or anyone on here how much difference in the heat of metal, cardboard and plastic have been made? If so, please let me know. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: birdwatcherfc"at"netscape.net, birdwatcherfc"at"netscape.net Hi, I think you are all missing something. While I would use just a wooden platform, a coffee can attached to the side of the house (open end to the side) would serve as a nesting site for other birds. Thank God there are more than just bluebirds! Fred (Southern PA) From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com What is the difference in Bluebirds and other birds young nesting in a hot can? I am missing something here, I guess. Evelyn From: Larry A Broadbent, rockets"at"mnsi.net Evelyn, NO, you are Not missing anything! There are basic requirements and standards for proper nestboxes for all cavity nesting birds. Metal Coffee cans do NOT meet these basic requirements and standards for proper nestboxes. It is IRRESPONSIBLE for Fred or anyone else to recommend using such items for nestboxes for Bluebirds or any other cavity nesting birds. Regards, Larry A Broadbent Chatham, From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com Well, I usually retain most of what I read, and I had not seen any great support for metal or card board. In fact, I just finished reading on the NABS Fact Sheet that cardboard or any corrugated board is unacceptable. We certainly need to keep in mind the new people that are on our list and are joining every day and what we say affects them. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Bruce Burdett, blueburd"at"tds.net Fred, et al, A bird is a bird. Any young bird can die of the heat in an over-heated (or frigid) tin can. The open-ended can is an invitation to predators and vandals. What prevents rain from getting in the can? I'm sure that birds have managed to survive in tin cans, and many other unusual things. But the odds are against them when they're vulnerable to heat, cold, predators, rain, snow, vandals, etc. I think we should try to IMPROVE their odds by providing secure houses for the many kinds of cavity-nesting birds. Tin cans, juice containers, milk cartons are cheap and easy, but that's about all that can be said for them. The best place for them is the recycling center. (dump) Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Snoopy, snoopy"at"wmis.net People are really using milk bottles, coffee cans and cardboard for nestboxes??? YIKES!!!!!! where do these people live??? do they not have rain, hail, sleet, nasty spring storms??? hot sun in the summer?? I can't even imagine those poor little babies being comfy/happy/safe/kept alive in any of these type of houses.... What ever happen to good old fashioned wood?????? are we getting so cheap we can't spend even a little to save our natural beautiful resources??? I for one, will gladly use nice strong wood boxes so I can keep breeding more happy and healthy little mosquito/other nasty bug eaters. It's a two way street...... you help them and they help you. you don't get something for nothing. ... From: John Schuster, wildwingco"at"earthlink.net Dear Freinds, A better use for steel coffee cans is to use them for my Starling Hotel trap and forget using them for nesting boxes. By the way, not that this will happen overnight, but steel coffee cans maybe a thing of the past. Folgers is pushing their new plastic coffee can and being an industry leader this may push others to do the same. ... John Schuster Wild Wing Company Web site: www.wildwingco.com From: birdwatcherfc"at"netscape.net Yes. You are missing it. While I would only use a wood PLATFORM, a coffee can (#10 size) with the open end to the side (no lid) does work. I know two people nearby who have had robins use these. Cans should not be used for cavity nesters. Also, several years ago there was information about the use of 1/2 gallon coated paper milk cartons being successfully used somewhere in the Carolinas. These were to be lasting several years. I do not use these but they are not much different from the PVC Gilbertson box. Fred From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com Well, your statement that said cans should not be used for cavity nesters means I AM NOT missing it! North American Bluebird Society does not recommend any kind of card board or corrugated board for nestboxes. If this were true, why would we go to all the trouble of buying lumber and making nestboxes? Huh? Evelyn Cooper Delhi. From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com Cavity nesting birds are what we promote. Not to say we don't love the others, but that is what we are talking about. If you do put out a can, how are you to know a cavity nester is not going to use it??? ... [subsequent post] In my post a few days ago about a man offering plastic drink and milk bottles to the public, he stated that he has done studies with plastic jugs, cardboard and wood. He says the wood is cooler. He withdrew his offer of plastic jugs. Now, my question is this, (again), why would we go to the expense and trouble of building these nestboxes if we thought plastic, card board and metal cans served just as well? I have scads of milk jugs and metal cans. Also, if they would serve just as well, I would think that NABS would highly recommend them. Evelyn Cooper From: Keith & Sandy Kridler, txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net Tin cans have been used successfully placed up under the eaves of barns and old houses where they never get hit with sunlight. They have been used by barn swallows, cliff swallows, phoebes, several species of wrens. Of course you can also place wood boxes in this same location for similar results. Others mentioned robins and of course house sparrows & house finches will use these. The above birds are just as likely to be eaten as they would with their nest on a wood shelf. Do YOU have birds nesting on the sides of your house, barn or garage? Why not? Metamucil plastic jars with large screw on lids painted a light color have been used by prothonotary warblers. OK the reasoning here is that in MANY areas you can place thousands of nestboxes and you may only have a single nesting or two.....By placing thousands of cheap nestboxes up and down rivers and swamps you can then replace the plastic bottles with proper wood nestboxes when you find a breeding population. I did the same thing with natural bird house gourds in the 1960's and the bluebirds in East Texas. They found a large breeding population of Pothunter warblers nesting on Caddo Lake and found that natural cavities in trees were more dangerous because of snakes than the plastic jars mounted on conduit. They have now switched to wood nestboxes on conduit mounted well out in this natural lake. This is a shallow Cypress tree covered lake and the only natural lake that remains full of water every year in the whole state of Texas. It is just 45 miles from Mt. Pleasant. Color maybe more important than material when it comes to heat transfer. How many Purple Martins are raised in sheet metal houses placed in full sun? I guess we need to test other materials before we jump to condemn one type over another. Remember 1/16" thick walled White PVC pipe nestboxes are cooler than 3/4" thick natural wood colored nestboxes. I have had data loggers in good thick walled wood nestboxes and seen them lose 23*F in a single hour and stay within 1*F of the outside temperature so they do not "hold heat" either. I actually will use some of the plastic Folgers cans for experiments with flying squirrels this summer. Used only in deep woods in total shade. Lowes has some remote sensor temperature receivers and transmitters similar to what I use in my greenhouses that will read to about .1*F and can be used about 100 to 300 feet from your inside receiver for under $100....You can place these in three of your different styles of nestboxes and watch the temperature climb or fall. KK From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com I think the issue of the metal was it was hotter than the wood, and is what most folks were concerned about. Wouldn't these species suffer just as much as a Bluebird? And, wouldn't it be a possibility a Bluebird would use them? I do know I saw Bluebird in a gourd hanging from underneath the eve of a house this summer and there was no way to monitor it. As for the plastic and cardboard for the Prothonotary Warblers, they use them by the hundreds in the southern part of our state, have no intention of replacing them with wooden nestboxes and never use guards. It was even recommended by one man that the plastic drink bottles were fine for Bluebirds. I just had to step in and disagree. Even in the shade in LA it is very, very hot, and even on the first nesting cycle many times. If folks would do as you say and when they have a good breeding place for PRWA's replace the plastic or cardboard with wooden boxes and guards, it would be a much better way to increase their population. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Bruce Burdett BLUEBIRD-L, Completely apart from the question of whether tin cans, juice bottles, milk cartons, etc. are good for the cavity-nesters or not, I think that these cans, bottles and cartons simply LOOK frightful around your house and yard. They look like just what they are, - trash, junk. ......but that's a personal opinion. As Evelyn, I think, has pointed out, this is specifically a Bluebird-oriented listserv, with a side interest in other cavity-nesters who need our help. Robins, are not cavity-nesters, they are very numerous in most places, and they don't need help from anybody. They seem happy enough nesting on branches, in shrubbery, and on any old ledge in buildings. Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com I am more concerned about cavity nesters also using these hot little nesting places than I am about the looks. However, I would not want the junky trash under my eves either. Evelyn From: Crystal Hill, crystaljhill"at"msn.com Perhaps the cans, and plastic containers are a cheap way (not meant to offend if used by any), as I know my sons school made these but used as bird feeders. And of course they broke in the first hard rain and wind, the seed got all wet and moldy, and they were a sight for sore eyes. I know the money we have invested in feeders, boxes, poles, and baffles to some may seem expensive and a waste, but well worth seeing healthy fledglings. Crystal Social Circle, GA NABS member From: Ylana Moye, ylanamoye"at"junct.com I don't have to worry about my sister using the coffee cans. She won't do it herself, and her husband agreed with me that he thought the heat would be a problem. If you disagree with her she just digs her feet in and becomes very stubborn about it. We have all learned to let her fuss about it for awhile and she will move on to another great idea. She is the idea person but never the doer. She always comes up with suggestions for her husband, family, myself to do. But won't do it herself. So when it is a dumb idea we politely disagree with her and then just wait her out. Lana From: Evelyn Cooper, emcooper"at"bayou.com Did you remove the cardboard nestboxes? If not, maybe removing them will encourage them to nest in the wooden boxes. I think I would have temporarily stopped up the hole to the nestbox for a few minutes and sprayed the guard with something. When it clear off, you could remove the duck tape from the hole. You had nothing to loose as you lost the babies anyway. I have never had this experience and have not heard it asked before, but in a dire circumstance, I think you should choose the lesser of the evils. These are just my thoughts. Maybe someone else has a better suggestion. I feel sure you may be faced with that problem again. Evelyn Cooper ... From: Haleya
Priest, mablue"at"gis.net Sometimes we have to learn the hard way! Finding a dead bluebird in a tin can nest box might just be convincing enough for even the most stubborn. ;-) H From: Yvonne Bordelon, ylbordelon"at"msn.com I have been absent from the list for a few years, but have been maintaining a small trail on our property outside of Covington, La since 1996. We have bluebirds in the open areas near the house and Prothonotary warblers, C. chickadees, tufted titmice, Carolina wrens, great crested flycatchers, wood ducks and flying squirrels using our boxes in the woods & by the river. I have tried cardboard milk carton/juice box houses placed in complete shade in Prothonotary warbler territory and the warblers used them readily & successfully. As I was able to build more wooden houses I tried to replace the cardboard ones with wood and the warblers kept using the cardboard. They also nested in one of those wooden butterfly shelters with the slots instead of a respectable NABS approved wooden house with a stove pipe guard. I thought about building some smaller "chickadee" size wooden houses for the smaller birds & also hoped that the flying squirrels wouldn't like them as well. Do you think this might work? Ken, you mentioned you were going to try the plastic coffee cans for the flying squirrels. Four or five of our bluebird size houses have been taken over by flying squirrels. Last year one killed a male prothonotary warbler when he stuck his head into the house for a look. I found the dead bird, minus head and feet, in the squirrel's nest. We like the squirrels, but would rather they nest somewhere else. How are you going to use the coffee cans? Also, paper wasps nested in the baffle (stovepipe/hardware cloth) of one of our wooden houses and chased the parent PW's away, loosing the nest of 5 babies and stinging me several times when I checked the box. What can you use that's not harmful to the birds that can be sprayed into the baffle to get the wasp nest? Thanks in advance. Yvonne and Al Bordelon Covington, LA St. Tammany Parish From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Below is an excerpt from a post to the Ohio Listserve that Dick Tuttle wrote. Note that he used 1/8" THIN Wall. He observed that Chickadees that nested in wooden nextboxes nearby were more successful. This led him to believe the thin wall PVC is not as good especially in that kind of severe weather. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society Affiliate of NABS Member, NABS www.labayoubluebirdsociety.org "The timing of 2003's severe weather is reflected in the chickadees' struggle to raise hatchlings to fledge. Chickadees are excellent providers once eggs hatch; they routinely fledge over 90% of their hatched eggs if they hatch, they will fly. Nonetheless, last season saw frantic parents lose one of every four young. Is there more to this story than bad weather? Perhaps, and since a scientific protocol had not been followed, I have to go with my "gut feeling" for what might be wrong. The nest tubes that I originally designed for Prothonotary Warblers, and later modified for chickadees, might be too ventilated with walls too thin to adequately hold heat. The nest chambers are made of thin-walled (1/8") PVC drainpipe, and are ventilated with two large slots under their wooden roofs. Eight of nine nest failures took place in these nest tubes. In contrast, all four chickadee nest attempts at the Methodist Theological School and Perkins Observatory were successful in wooden nest boxes with minimum ventilation. Is wood good, and plastic bad? Possibly." From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] I've read that Andy Fondrk and Dan Best of Ohio have been using painted (gray, tan or green enamel) Metamucil containers (7" deep, 3.5" diameter) with 1" plastic screened side vents, and a 0.25" I've been wondering why this preference would exist. Then I was thinking about the paper wasps, which apparently can be a real issue around water where PROW nest. Is the preference possibly because paper wasps don't like the waxed cartons/Metamucil containers because it's harder to build attach their nests to the interior? (Boxes on my trail that get paper wasps go unused or get Just to be clear - I'm not advocating the use of milk cartons, although I can see why someone might use them for short term research purposes (because they are free). Also, as noted in the archives at http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/boxescardboard.htm, PROW nesting sites are more likely to be in shady swampy areas, so heat is maybe less of a concern. But that still doesn't get around the lack of durability or easy access for predators. I'm guessing that Metamucil containers, on the other hand, would be fairly sturdy. Bet from CT From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor"at"msn.com] Charlene Anchor In the past our own Audubon Society used to recommend using milk cartons as nest boxes. That would have been an easy and simple thing to do and may have gotten some children interested in birds. But more has been learned since then and it is no longer done. An ornithologist using milk cartons to study Prothonotary Warblers, where the birds will be monitored, is much different than handing out 600 milk cartons to children. We live in a "speed-crazed" society these days. Why not teach children the value of slowing down? How to do things in a better way and the reasons for doing it that way, even if it takes a little more time? Could making a nest box that required a little more work be a little more treasured as well? It isn't just another simple throw-away item! I'm sure there are children here and there that could be inspired by a "milk box" experience and will go on to further study birds. But teaching 600 at once to do their best seems like too good of an opportunity to pass up!! From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] We lost the focus of this issue. A few years ago Lowe's and Home Depot both would furnish wood "birdhouses" and have a bird day and have kids come to the stores and assemble birdhouses. From: Sheryl Bassi [mailto:sbassie"at"bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: RE: Milk carton philosophy? Many good points, Keith! That said, I’d like to offer a suggestion. Rather that trying to give out nestboxes to approx. 600 kids, why not offer an educational program geared toward children about bluebirds and bluebirding. That could be followed up with “nestbox workshops” or perhaps school programs that would allow for much smaller groups to construct nestboxes and learn even more about bluebirds and monitoring. It would also be a source of parental or adult involvement, which would be instrumental in a successful nestbox program geared toward children. While many “experts” seem to prefer not involving children at all, I don’t particularly agree. Many lifelong “hobbies” or “callings” develop from childhood interests, as you pointed out so well. In my own school project, we started out with 4th graders (we being myself and the Math and Sciences teacher). The children, working in small groups, constructed nestboxes, which we then used to establish a trail on the school grounds. The children, with adult leadership, have been responsible for the upkeep and monitoring of the trail. Sadly, we’ve not been able to attract Bluebirds successfully, but then again, neither has anyone else in a radius of several miles. We have a huge sparrow problem that plagues all cavity nester enthusiasts in the vicinity. We have had other cavity nesters use the boxes successfully. As to the quality of the nestboxes, well, you and I both know that the birds aren't nearly as picky as we are! While we built our nestboxes to NABS specs, our builders were 4th graders! You wrote: "Each situation is unique and one answer is never right for everyone in a room let alone every room across the country." Hopefully, sharing experiences and ideas such as yours and as above will serve as a "springboard" to ideas for a workable solution. Happy Birding, Sheryl Cooper Bassi From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] I finally had time to read your post in full Keith. |
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