Click to go to Audubon Society of Omaha Home Page Audubon Society of OmahaEastern Bluebird

Welcome to The Bluebird Box since 1995
Best of Bluebird Mailing Lists Classified

Nestbox (Peterson Oval Hole)

In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website: 


Subj: Nestbox Entrances for MOBL
Date: 1/16/00 2:46:58 PM Central Standard Time
From: country.potter"at"dlcwest.com (Karyn Mossing)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: country.potter"at"dlcwest.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Hi Everyone!

We are trying to decide what type of hole to use for MOBL nest boxes. Some research indicates both the Peterson oval and slotted are preferred by Bluebirds.

Will the oval and slotted both work for MOBL, and if so what would be the dimensions of the oval be? (the 2 1/4" high by 1 3/8" wide as indicated in the Peterson plans?) Would the slotted entrance be 1 9/16" high?

Thanks to any one with some guidance.

Karyn in Canada - where it is cold (if you know Celcius temperature, how does -40 to -50 with the wind chill sound!)
 


Subj: slots for mountain bluebirds/lime
Date: 1/17/00 8:36:07 PM Central Standard Time
From: kridler"at"1starnet.com (Keith & Sandy Kridler)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: kridler"at"1starnet.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)

Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas

Karyn: So sorry about the cold weather -40* sounds really bad while we are enjoying Forsythia in full bloom....OK Mountain bluebirds can enter a 1& 9/16" round hole easily while Starlings cannot. Every issue of "THE BLUEBIRD" has had different people from different parts of North America state that starlings are entering nestboxes with the Peterson oval entrance hole. The latest one has a mention of Starlings entering a 1&1/4"X2&1/4" oval entrance (1/8" narrower than the Peterson oval). This tells me that mountain bluebirds (being smaller than Starlings) could easily enter a slot shorter than 1&1/4" but that Starlings might also be able to enter it!. Many parts of Canada do not have a Starling problem so take needed precautions if they are present. If you have a normal 1" board for a roof it may warp and increase (or decrease) the height of the slot between the front and top. Plywood resists warping especially if over 5 ply's thick.

Lime:Hydrated lime is caustic and will harm mucous membranes. It burns if you get it in your eyes!!! IF it is placed in a box (under the nest) after the nest is built it might be OK but it will be hard to keep out of reach of the birds after the nest is cleaned again. Interesting thought though! Farmers have dusted their crops to repel or kill insects and adjust soil PH. I had read that hydrated lime can be "made" by burning marble. After the fall of the Roman Empire many of the building built of marble were dismantled to burn and create "Lime" for farmers to improve the poor soils of the Mediterranean region....I wonder if this is true or a good story to protect the real thieves....KK
 


Subj: Need hole size research
Date: 1/19/00 8:03:13 PM Central Standard Time
From: hpandtl"at"crocker.com (Haleya Priest/Thom Levy)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: hpandtl"at"crocker.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD)

Haleya Priest Amherst MA

Can someone talk about hole size research for EABL. Especially how the oval nesting hole size was determined. Why the 1 3/8 by 2 1/4. Is that because it is just tooooooo small of a space width wise for a EUST to enter? But wouldn't they make up for it in the length of the 2 1/4??? I am sure this has been studied to death but I would like to hear more.
Thanks. H


From: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
To: "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Cc: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
Subject: Oblong entrance holes
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:14:34 -0500

As Keith indicated, if ease of entering the nest box were a factor in the reported preference for the oblong hole, a horizontally elongated entrance hole, one that was wider than it was tall, would be preferred by the bluebird, not a vertically elongated entrance hole.

I've read several times of reports that tests have been conducted that show the vertically elongated entrances were preferred by bluebirds but have never seen the details of these studies.

But, I believe the conclusion they reached should not have been that bluebirds prefer a vertically elongated entrance hole.

Instead, I believe the conclusion those who conducted these studies should have been; The bluebird prefers a nest box which admits more light, especially when the bird is in the process of investigating the nest box from the entrance hole.

More light enters the nest box by passing over top of the neck and head of a bird investigating a nest box with a vertically elongated hole than does with a inch and a half round hole, especially in the morning if nest boxes are mounted facing east. The extra light inside the nest box helps the bird determine if it is safe to enter.

The reason I believe the amount of light entering a nest box is more important than the shape of the hole stems from my experiences with nest boxes with varying amounts of drainage and ventilation, two other means of increasing the amount of light entering a nest box.

My first nest boxes had the darkest interior of all nest boxes because they had no drainage and no ventilation.

Birds of many cavity nesting species would position themselves under the entrance hole of these dark nest boxes and take a quick peek then withdraw their head but remain positioned on the front of the box. They would repeat this action up to10 times and in many cases leave the site without ever entering the box.

This caution exhibited by a bird is wise. Not only are many nest boxes home to swarms of wasps and hornets, but snakes sometimes remain inside nest boxes after eating the previous residents.

Without ventilation and drainage holes, the interior of the nest box was midnight black. Because the bird could not see inside the nest box, it took a risk each time it entered the box, thus its hesitation.

When I began drilling a few holes on the sides of the box for ventilation, the birds slightly decreased the amount of peeping into the box before entering.

And, when I brightened the inside of the nest boxes by increasing the ventilation slots to five and a half square inches and began cutting off the corners of the bottom of the box, the birds could easily see inside the nest box. And now, in many cases the birds go straight into the box the first time they put their head up to the hole.

Many people who receive the Chalet are amazed at this 'phenomena'. I repeatedly hear, " I can't believe how the birds went straight on in".

Not only do ventilation slots save the lives of chicks living in them on hot sunny days, but they also emit a lot of light into the box.

With gobs of ventilation the birds no longer have to guess whether it's safe to enter the box or if there is a wasp nest or snake inside. And, this holds true not only when they are investigating the box but during the entire period they are raising their young inside the well lighted nest box. I also feel the bird prefers building a nest inside a box in which it can see better, and, that the birds enjoy seeing their young as much as we enjoy seeing children.

Many people are also surprised when I tell them that bluebirds seem to prefer the extra thick wood block predator guard on my nest boxes. They tell me of their experiences that the birds seem to prefer boxes without these wood block predator guards.

And, again, I believe the amount of light reaching the inside of the nest box is why some people have this experience. The thick entrance hole greatly reduces the amount of light in a box with only a couple holes drilled in the sides for ventilation. But, when there is enough ventilation to make it almost daylight inside the box, the birds act like even two and a half inches thick entrance thickness isn't even there.

All other aspects being the same, I believe bluebirds will prefer boxes more the further you go down in the following list as the amount of light entering the box increases :

A. No ventilation or drainage holes with inch and a half round hole. Low or no light inside nest box and very low bluebird preference.

B A couple of ventilation holes on the side of the box and a inch and a half round entrance hole with a wood block predator guard. Very low light and low bluebird preference.

C A couple of ventilation holes in the side of the box and a inch and a half round entrance hole with no wood block predator guard. Just a little more light than in B especially when bird is putting head into hold to view inside of box, and, preferred by bluebirds over B.

D A couple of ventilation holes in the side of the box and a vertically elongated entrance hole. More light on the inside of the box, especially in early morning hours if nest box is mounted facing east. The sun light passes over top of the bluebird through the extra space provided by the taller entrance hole and makes it easier for the bird to view the inside of the box. Preferred by bluebirds even more than C but larger hole increases bluebird chicks risk of predation.

E Slot box. Lots of light and readily selected by bluebirds but not as safe as round entrance hole. More light than C and preferred more by bluebirds that have not had nesting failures in cavities with large entrance holes.

F Two ventilation slots one half inch wide and five and a half inches long and corners of box bottom cut off. Gobs of light inside box enabling maximization of safety by use of thick wooden block predator guard and inch and a half round entrance hole without reducing the bluebird preference.

 

Gary Springer


From: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
To: "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Cc: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
Subject: Correction to "Oblong entrance holes"
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:04:03 -0500

The following appears in my last post:

E Slot box. Lots of light and readily selected by bluebirds but not as safe as round entrance hole. More light than C and preferred more by bluebirds that have not had nesting failures in cavities with large entrance holes.

The C in this paragraph should have been D, to read:

E Slot box. Lots of light and readily selected by bluebirds but not as safe as round entrance hole. More light than D and preferred more by bluebirds that have not had nesting failures in cavities with large entrance holes.

Gary Springer


From: Rxbarry2"at"cs.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:49:40 EST
Subject: Re: Oblong entrance holes
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)
 

I found the comment about the studies demonstrating that bluebirds use oblong holes more frequently than round holes, but the author also admitted that he had not seen the details of the studies. It would be wise to read the study report and/or correspond directly with the author, if the report is not clear. It would be interesting to know if they tested verticle oblong vs horizontal oblong vs round. If they did not, then their conclusions about the preference may not be valid.

He had an interesting theory on the light angle. Has anyone actually tested it scientifically? I'm sure it would be a simple thing for someone to take light meter readings inside boxes and compare actual usage to see if more birds use boxes with more light or not. Of course, it would have to be tested using boxes of all the same exterior size and make some with no ventilation, some with just cut bottoms and some with cut bottoms and side slots.

Bob Barry
Peoria, AZ


From: "Jim McLochlin" bluebirdbox"at"cox.net
To: "'bluebirds and cavity-nesting birds'" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu (BLUEBIRD-L)
Cc: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
Subject: RE: Oblong entrance holes
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:32:05 -0600

Gary,

You have a couple of interesting hypothesis as to why the "Peterson" oval has been determined to be a preferred entrance. They should be evaluated and tested at some time.

Here are some links that you may not be aware of for documentation concerning the "Peterson" oval and nestbox and it's merits that exist on my site:

That Remarkable Peterson Entrance by Wayne H. Davis see http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/wd1.htm
THOSE OVAL HOLES see http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bbrp/those_oval_holes.htm
The great entrance-hole debate by Myrna Pearman see http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/mp1.htm
Starlings and oval-holed nest boxes by Kevin Berner see http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/kb1.htm
NESTBOX COMPARISON STUDIES From New York: two quite different studies of nestbox preferences by bluebirds: see http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/bbrp/nestbox_comparison_studies.htm

 

Jim McLochlin
Omaha, NE
41.279N -96.060W

The Audubon Society of Omaha = http://audubon-omaha.org/
The Bluebird Box = http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/index.htm
Omaha Web Solutions = http://www.omahawebsol.com 

You can send me an instant Message from Windows messenger to omahawebsol"at"cox.net

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
To: "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Cc: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
Subject: Oblong entrance holes
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:14:34 -0500

...


From: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
To: "BLUEBIRD-L" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Cc: "Gary Springer" springer"at"alltel.net
Subject: Re:Oblong nest box holes
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:40:16 -0500

Hi Jim,

I did read these documents before posting my previous writing and I have a couple comments and more questions about these.

These questions stem more of my concern about the quality of "scientific" studies published about the nest box field in general than the present topic of converstaion, but, because these are the studies under present consideration, these will serve as good a starting point as any other studies which have caused me to raise an eyebrow after reading the methods and conclusions.

At http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/nabs/wd1.htm  in the writing called "That Remarkable Peterson Entrance by Wayne H. Davis,

W. H. Davis concludes that "When given a choice, Eastern Bluebirds (Sialia sialis) have a strong preference for the Peterson box over various other styles"

He goes on to describe his tests. The writing indicates he presented his birds the option of only a slot box or a Peterson box.

How can he conclude the bluebird has a strong preference for the Peterson entrance hole when boxes with round entrance holes were not even included in the study?

Further, after having only 12 bluebird nests( 8 in Peterson and 4 in slot boxes) and 29 house sparrow nests in the area of study which consisted of 50 pairs of boxes(one slot and one Peterson per pair), it appears the more aggressive house sparrow's preference might well have more to do with which box type the bluebirds used than the bluebirds preference. In fact, because half of the slot boxes were used by the house sparrows, and almost no Peterson boxes used by house sparrows, it just seems perfectly logical that given no preference at all by bluebirds for either box type, there would be twice as many bluebirds nesting in Peterson boxes than in slot boxes simply because there are twice as many Peterson boxes available after the more aggressive house sparrows made their selection. And, at 8 and 4, this in fact is the ratio Wayne Davis reported( two to one).

Am I missing something?

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the conclusion drawn from this study?

Are any of these studies by Wayne Davis, Kevin Berner or others that conclude the Peterson entrance is preferred by bluebirds published in their entirety?

If so, please advise where I can get a copy.

As I noted in a previous post descriptions such as "NABS box" or "slot box" really mean nothing unless all dimensions and construction materials are provided. These are generalities and from what I understand of scientific studies, use of these terms without detailed descriptions will severely reduce the studies "scientific"worthiness.

Also of great importance, unless nearly identical for each box, and results uniform throughout the entire population, is the terrain and habitat in which each of the boxes were placed and the mounting techniques deployed.

Do these studies provide this type of detail?

Thanks for any further information about these studies.

Sincerely.

Gary Springer

...


From: "Gilliam, Jay" jay.gilliam"at"pioneer.com
To: "'BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu'" (BLUEBIRD-L) BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Nestbox Holes
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:10:47 -0600

Hi All--
I've been reading and enjoying the recent discussion on oblong holes, feather wear, and light admittance. It's great to get everybody's opinions on matters such as these. When I start to think about what bluebirds prefer I don't look at nestbox records or studies that have been done. I look at natural cavities along my trial that bluebirds have used. I have yet to find a natural cavity used by bluebirds with a hole that is oblong in shape. They are all round.

I understand that the bluebirds don't have a choice in the natural cavity hole shape since they are secondary cavity nesters but what about the woodpeckers that make them?? Why do woodpeckers make round holes and not oblong ones? Aren't they concerned about feather wear or how much light enters the nesting chamber?

In my opinion, the birds have evolved through time and the birds (not us) know which hole shape is best for their survival and maintaining their populations, and that seems to be a round hole, at least at my location. If an oblong hole would decrease feather wear and/or increase lighting so that the survival rates were increased, they would probably be using oblong holes. I have seen enlarged and oblong holes in trees but they seem to be older holes that are not being used by cavity nesters, but have rotted or been enlarged by sqirrels. All of the active nests in natural cavities I have observed have had round entrance holes.

Just another opinion for the discussion.

Jay Gilliam
Norwalk, IA


Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:17:29 -0500
To: jay.gilliam"at"pioneer.com,
"'BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu'" (BLUEBIRD-L) BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
From: Wendell Long mrsimple"at"go-concepts.com
Subject: Re: Nestbox Holes

Good question Jay and why does the Pileated excavate oblong when  feeding.
Wendell
At 09:10 AM 2/25/2002 -0600, Gilliam, Jay wrote:
Hi All--
I've been reading and enjoying the recent discussion on oblong

...


Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 07:28:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruce Johnson andyroooney"at"yahoo.com
Subject: 1&1/2" oblong hole and starlings.
To: BLUEBIRD-L BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
 

Hello all -

There has been so much said about the oblong Vs the round hole, both pros and cons that I can't keep track of it. That's not unusual for me though because I can't remember what I had for breakfast.

Yesterday I witnessed first hand a starling enter a nesting box with a 1&1/2" oblong hole. The holes were drilled using a drill press and an 1&1/2" hole saw. I then removed the indentations between the holes and sanded the 90 degree edges. I know the dimensions are accurate.

It took considerable effort for the starling to enter the box, (which was empty, having fledged bluebirds a couple of weeks ago.)

If a starling will enter an empty box to check it out, think how much more effort they will put into entering when there is a meal inside for them.

 

=====
Best regards,

Bruce Johnson
Life Mbr. NABS
Memphis Tennessee
(Extreme southwestern TN)


Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:31:11 -0400
From: "Marc W. Wachter" marc.wachter"at"verizon.net
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: 1-9/16" VS 1-1/2 question re: starlings

Why is it that a larger hole deters starling from inhabiting the nest as opposed to a smaller 1-1/2" hole?

Thanks
Marc Wachter
Southern New Jersey


From: TomGaryH"at"aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 13:15:01 EDT
Subject: Re: 1-9/16" VS 1-1/2 question re: starlings
To: marc.wachter"at"verizon.net, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Mark,

You ask in your 02-05-09 11:29:24 EDT Bluebird-L post:

Why is it that a larger hole deters starling from inhabiting the nest as opposed to a smaller 1-1/2" hole?

Please explain where/how you think you learned "a larger hole deters starling  from inhabiting the nest as opposed to a smaller 1-1/2" hole."

You may have missed a thread or two to the recent hole-size discussion. I can furnish these if we learn this is the reason for your question.

Tom in Milton Florida


From: hubertrap"at"webtv.net (Joe Huber)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 22:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
To: marc.wachter"at"verizon.net, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: 1-9/16" VS 1-1/2 question re: starlings

Hi marc, Both hole sizes mentioned in this article will keep Starling out, The 1 9/16" is the largest size you can use and still prevent them from entering. People started using the 1 9/16" hole for the somewhat larger Mountain Bluebird a nd Tree swallows. This size works well for all Bluebird species and lets in other valuable birds like the Great Crested Flycatcher plus causing less wear and tear of feathers on all of these. Joe Huber Venice, Fl.

Charter member NABS, Charter member OBS, Life member OBS Joe Huber
hubertrap"at"webtv.net 

http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/HOUSESPARROWCONTROL 

http://community.webtv.net/hubertrap/RoostingBluebirds
 

27.1171494 N Lo -82.4124222 W
He who ask a question is stupid for five minutes, He who never ask a question remains stupid forever, Chinese Proverb.

Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:31:11 -0400
From: "Marc W. Wachter" marc.wachter"at"verizon.net
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: 1-9/16" VS 1-1/2 question re: starlings

Why is it that a larger hole deters starling from inhabiting the nest as

opposed to a smaller 1-1/2" hole?

Thanks
Marc Wachter
Southern New Jersey


Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 22:38:08 -0500
From: jacqueline tamm bjtamm"at"execpc.com
To: TomGaryH"at"aol.com, bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: 1-9/16" VS 1-1/2 question re: starlings

Maybe Mark read the big article - I believe in the last issue of BLUEBIRD from NABS- about testing out east of large hole boxes that seem to work great for Bluebirds, yet starlings show little interest.
Bob in Muskego, Wi.

TomGaryH"at"aol.com wrote:

Mark,

You ask in your 02-05-09 11:29:24 EDT Bluebird-L post:

Why is it that a larger hole deters starling from inhabiting the

...


From: TomGaryH"at"aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 09:40:30 EDT
Subject: Re: 1-9/16" VS 1-1/2 question re: starlings
To: bjtamm"at"execpc.com, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Bob,

Maybe so. I had forgotten about that article. However, I think those holes were considerably larger than 1&9/16 inches. Whatever the case, Marc must have decided not to enter a discussion on this subject - one of his Messages was misdirected to the list. It indicated he wished to unsubscribe.

Joe Huber did a great job, as is his standard, explaining the advantages of  using a 1&9/16 inch hole over the 1&1/2 inch hole and still providing essentially the same protection from predation by starlings.

Does anyone know if a Forsner saw-tooth rimmed, 1&9/16 inch drill bit can be used as routinely and effecively as paddle or hole saw bits in an electric hand drill? The Bluebird Monitor's Guide leans in this direction, but I would like to be certain.

BTW I think The Bluebird Monitor's Guide is a fantastic resource for bluebirders.

Tom in Milton Florida

--------Original Message----------
Subj: Re: 1-9/16" VS 1-1/2 question re: starlings
Date: 02-05-09 23:43:38 EDT
From: bjtamm"at"execpc.com (jacqueline tamm)
Sender: owner-BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Reply-to: bjtamm"at"execpc.com
To: TomGaryH"at"aol.com, bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu

...


From: "paul kilduff" plkldf"at"hotmail.com
To: BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Cc: bluebirdbox"at"cox.net
Subject: Re: What works (long)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:10:46 +0000

Paul Kilduff, Baltimore MD

On our trail in Baltimore County MD, four of our boxes were Petersons with 1-9/16" round holes -- another four had oval holes. Based on small sample, seems to me the Petersons with oval holes were the most *attractive* to EAstern BLuebirds, but the Petersons with round holes were also quite attractive. Of the *occupied* Petersons on our trail, only one is not EABL - it has TRee sWallow nest, in a year when TRES are very numerous.

So the blues seem to like the Petersons whether or not they have oval hole, but maybe slightly more if they have oval hole -- too small a sample for meaninful conclusion. As I said earlier, I replaced an oval-holed front with round-holed front in box with 9-day old nestlings, and now I feel better.

I have since replaced all oval holes with round holes, because it doesn't feel right to me to have a means of excluding a predator (EUropean STarling) and not use it. However, I still think the Petes are good boxes. I could wish they were a little more lightweight and better balanced so I could put them on telescoping poles, but lately I've been mounting them on 1" conduit with Kingston guard and I think that's a good, safe mount.

I did make one as an experiment with two pieces of plywood and air space in between in place of the back 2x4 -- I put 3/4" conduit sort of "up the  spine" of the box -- in the middle of where the "2x4" would be. Because the mounting pole is located slightly forward, and because the plywood weighs less than the 2x4, I did feel safe mounting it on a telescoping pole with 1" conduit base.

I like the Petersons and hope to continue using them, but I don't think I'll use the oval hole again.

By the way, some folks criticize them for being hot in southern climate, but Frank Navratil found that, painted white, they had the least heat gain of
any box he tested

http://www.concentric.net/~Frnavrat/ 

I've stained mine light yellow and hopefully believe they'll stay cool this summer....

Paul in Baltimore

"Jim McLochlin" WROTE:
To: "Bluebird-L" bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:58:34 -0500
Message-ID: 000001c1f84c$50b77d90$7700a8c0"at"cx67641a
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In defense of the Peterson nest box style including the "Remarkable
Peterson Entrance", as it has been called by some. And at the same
time in defense of the Gilbertson PVC style boxes that also receive
some amount of negative press on the list.

I personally have both boxes in use on my trail as I know many others
do. This is especially true in the upper Midwest (Nebraska, Iowa,
Wisconsin, & Minnesota). I have not experienced a single negative
impact from these boxes when mounted correctly. The last statement
refers to a Peterson style box that was incorrectly mounted to a tree
such that when the box was opened the contents would fall out (in fact
this experience resulted in my not using any Peterson style boxes for a

number of years - I kept having visions of eggs hitting the ground).

The Upper Midwest seems to favor both of these box styles quite
favorably over many others. Although a number of Troyer and NABS
style boxes are also in use. When these boxes are used as designed in
this area they have been successful, at least as far as I have heard,
without incident of major problems of house sparrows (with the sparrow
resistant Gilbertson and Troyer) or starlings (with the Peterson). Are

these boxes favored because they originated in the this area? I don't
believe that is true as other Upper Midwest designs do not have the
same reputation. I believe they have a reputation and were developed
in this area because they worked well in this area. I also feel that
derivations of the successful designs contribute to the negative
reputations of boxes in other areas. It makes me wonder if posting
these designs to my web site have proved helpful or not.

So what happens next seems to somewhat amaze me. I will go to a
conference or bluebird seminar and hear that people aren't following
any of the "rules" and are still fledging amazing numbers of bluebirds
and have been doing so for a number of years. It is as though the
bluebirds aren't reading any of the bluebird books ("Bluebird Trails -
A Guide to Success" by Dorene Scriven - my personal favorite or
"Bluebird Monitor's Guide" by Jack Griggs - a very close second). It
also seems the birds aren't reading Bluebird-L or listening to the
speakers and researchers who have contributed so much to their success.

I read on the list that these boxes don't work well in an area and it
makes me wonder why they don't, because they certainly do appear to do
so in others. Are we being fooled, and in fact as Keith suggests that
some of the problems we attribute to other predators (starlings)
gaining access to the Peterson boxes are really a result from the use
of the "Remarkable Peterson Entrance" oval hole? Are we blind to the
success we have attributed to the smaller more confining house sparrow
resistant boxes and we are actually fledging birds earlier and less
ready to confront the world? I don't know the answer, but I do know I
have never been so inclined to even consider the concern. Is that do
to lack of experience? I don't think the cumulative experience of
bluebirders in the Upper Midwest is any greater or less then that of
other Ares. I do think the experiences have been different.

That all gets us back to the subject of this Message. Use and do what
works on your trail. This in my opinion is the importance of the local

and regional bluebird groups and experts. The cumulative experience of

these groups and people is what tells us what works in our areas. That

is not to say that if I should be so brave to follow none of the rules
that I still won't fledge birds. However, when the knowledge and
experience of those in our areas is followed more birds and healthier
birds are fledged.

The advantage NABS, Cornell and even Bluebird-L allows us is to share
these experiences for those who are experiencing problems of general
concern. If I start seeing strange things happening in a Peterson
style box with an oval entrance, I would be inclined to take a hard
look at what I am hearing from other areas. Or, if I want to control
the universal villain of native cavity nesters (house sparrows) I don't

believe I have seen a better resource than what is available on this
list.

Jim McLochlin
Omaha, NE
41.279N -96.060W


From: "Bill Darnell" bdarnel3"at"bellsouth.net
To: johnbrocks"at"juno.com, BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Peterson openings DEATH TRAPS
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 23:02:10 -0500

That is the nature of the European Starling. Most bluebirders never see the savagery of this bird because of the hole sizes. And I worry a lot less about the feather wear. The feathers grow back, eventually. The hatchling BB's are gone forever. Bill TN
 

A few years ago I made three Peterson houses carefully following the plans. These houses were placed at the corners of open pasture on 10 acres in Southwest Missouri. I could see the houses with binoculars as they were downhill from my kitchen window. The houses were all soon occupied by Eastern Bluebirds. 

One rainy morning I observed about six to seven Starlings harassing the Bluebirds in the first house. After about 5 to 10 minutes the Starlings moved on to the second house for a short time and then on to the third. I decided to check the houses and found all baby Bluebirds dead on the ground. Lost 14 within a half hour. All nesting material was tossed out of two of the houses. Did not see any dead adult Blues, but they left the area and did not come back for two years. The Starlings never tried to move in.

I did notice that a number of the Starlings were a little lighter color and seemed to be smaller. My guess is that these had recently fledged and this was the work of one family.

I converted the Peterson openings to slots with a 3cm opening (about 1 3/16). Since then I have put up another 15 houses around my neighbors 100 acre field. The houses are various kinds and sizes, but all houses are front opening with 3cm slots, are mounted on stand alone fence posts, have hardware cloth snake guards, and some also have stove pipe guards. I use an ATV to monitor and record weekly, evicting any Sparrow nests. Never had any problems with Starlings since converting to 3cm slots. So far this year have not lost any eggs, or baby birds. Although some eggs failed to hatch 45 Bluebirds have fledged and the parents are starting to work on their second batch. 

Some will say the small opening will cause feather wear, but in my opinion the slots are a lot easier on the birds than round openings. Also, when baby birds are close to fledging size they can all look out and beg for food at the same time. Kind of fun to watch.

John Brocks


Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:31:22 -0500
From: Robert Tamm bjtamm"at"execpc.com
To: bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Starlings/Peterson boxes-Careful!!!

Hi all! The season is winding down, but here in southeastern Wisconsin, there is, as in most other places, still activity. But enough has happened up til now that at least we can reflect on the good, the bad, and the ugly... I should set a record for bbs fledged at my County Park trail. (That's the good) House wrens destroyed 6 chickadee eggs back in April, and HOSPs, as usual, made their presence known, mostly in my yard, where they destroyed 5 bluebird eggs-have no idea how the parent bbs fared, and this was particularly hard to take since this is the first time in 8 years that I have attracted a pair of bluebirds into my yard, which is not particularly good habitat for them. ( That's the bad) And now for the UGLY... Box #2 (a Peterson box with standard 1 3/8'' X 2 1/4" hole) at the Park. Pair of bluebirds moves in, lays 4 eggs of which one disappears, but the remaining 3 fledge. So far so good. (EXCEPT for that one egg disappearance - which is a clue...) Mama returns for 2nd nesting and lays 3 eggs. On 4th day-when she should have laid her 4th, I open box to discover that ALL eggs are gone. All of you know the feeling when this happens! So, I clean out the box, and lo and behold, the male is hanging around the box, and sure enough, after a few days, the female starts to build another nest! She lays four eggs, which all hatch, and on the nestlings 3rd day of life, I open the box to discover that they are ALL GONE!! Again, most of you know the feeling, that empty, sick, and sad feeling that you get upon making this kind of discovery for the second time. And to make matters worse, you don't even know who the guilty party is!!! Or do we???

A couple months ago on this list, there was a discussion about starlings... are they able to enter a Peterson box or not. I was one who, based on past years experience, wrote in to say that as far as I was concerned, Petersons do keep out the starlings pretty well. I even commented (half kiddingly) that maybe northern starlings are bigger because of the cold weather than the ones down south - since Keith K. had insisted that starlings CAN and WILL enter Peterson boxes with the
oval holes.

Folks, this ugly experience with box #2 has pretty well convinced me that my conclusions about starlings were wrong!!! Here are the facts: In both cases, where eggs, then nestlings, were removed, no nesting material was disturbed at all. So cats or raccoons were not the problem. Besides, my boxes are well guarded against these two predators. It is extremely doubtful that vandalism was the problem. This particular box is in an open area visable to the many park people who patrol. Also, the screw that I use on this box would need a special screwdriver in order to open it. House sparrows? Forget it, they do not completely remove/eat all the evidence! There definitely would have been "evidence" if it was a house sparrow that was doing the dirty work! Snakes? Again, doubtful. While I cannot say that my boxes are "snakeproof", I believe that in this area of the country, snakes are NOT the problem that they are in the south. That leaves the STARLING! And I wonder, since the Peterson box is SO popular in the midwest, how many of you out there have experienced sudden losses as did I... I really believe that starlings are to blame for alot of the sudden disappearances that occur during the "season". ( Sorta like KK said!!!)

I DO have other Petersons on my trail, which have been successful, but looking in my logbook, there are a few instances recorded, where one or two eggs have just disappeared. We dismiss it, but there HAS to be a reason for this happening!!! In the case of the #2 box, I have already built and installed a new front with a standard 1 1/2" hole plus an extra "predator guard" block with identical hole size.(I figure that may be enough to stop the starling from being able to poke its head inside far enough to snatch the eggs/young from the nest ) I know this has not proved to be very successful, but since my #2 box has attracted bluebirds for many many years without fail, I think this will be an interesting experiment to see if they use this "new" entrance. At least, I won't be feeding the EUSTs anymore-hopefully!

Anyway, I do have a couple of active boxes yet, so success with these bluebirds will help alleviate some of the agony of defeat!

Bob Tamm Muskego, Wi.


From: MSBOC"at"aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:22:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Starlings/Peterson boxes-Careful!!!
To: bjtamm"at"execpc.com, bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu

Bob,

I read your posting with interest. This year during the first nesting, (Peterson Box) I found my nestlings or one or two of them at around age 10 days simply dead out of the nest at the base of the pole. I have no idea what could have done that. Now I am wondering about starlings. At the time my lawn had grub pickers(birds looking for grubs...and I vaguely remember that perhaps they were starlings) on it. I don't usually see starlings around my house, but I'm sure they live in this area.

Nancy
Newtown, CT


Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 05:34:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Starlings/Peterson boxes-Careful!!!
From: Larry VanZalen wings"at"mei.net
To: bjtamm"at"execpc.com, bluebird-l"at"cornell.edu

on 7/19/02 2:31 AM, Robert Tamm at bjtamm"at"execpc.com wrote:

That leaves the STARLING! And I

...

Bob,

I had the same experience here in southern lower Michigan but attributed it to the black rat snake. I'm rethinking that. Whatever took the 4 (white) EABL eggs did it neatly and cleanly without leaving a single clue. It was so neat that I at first suspected vandalism but soon discounted that theory. This is not a Peterson box but a NABS style. It's near the edge of tall grass, some trees, and a pond. Because EUST have not been a problem here, I suspected a snake.

larry...


From: klubea"at"comcast.net
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 09:45:29 -0500
Subject: Swallows and oval entrance
To: "BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

I purchased an oval type entrance swallow box from Duncraft.com. Its the only one i have seen. My objective is to leave a reg bluebird house up and pair it with this box hoping the HOSP will not bother it. Can the swallows fit in it or should i put another reg bluebird house up later in spring. I have 2-1/4 acres and have the blues way out in the field but the HOSP seems to be checking out the houses there plus they are near the house. Is it worth putting up A HOSP box closer to my house to deter the HOSP. Has anyone ever used the oval entrance for swallows is my main question. Thanks
In Connecticut (EAST Coast)


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Doctor sytyf"at"yahoo.com
Subject: Oval shaped entrance holes can be deadly to nestlings
To: BLUEBIRD BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Hey all,
 

I have had oval shaped entrance holes on my Indiana trail for years without any problems. I have seen crows occasionally pick nestlings out of an 'open' nest in tree. On my Illinois trail (where there are few trees ) however, predator birds have taken three nestlings to date out of nestboxes with oval entrance holes. I have not lost any nestlings to avian predators in nestboxes with round or slotted holes. Seems that larger birds can reach into oval holes.
 

I will eliminate oval shaped entrance holes on my Illinois trails and also question the use of slotted holes. You see, I have seen younger, thinner, sleeker Starings get into slotted nestboxes ( 1 3/8" high slot) before. Luckily there were no nestlings in the box at the time.


 

Eyes wide open; always hoping for the sun

Bob Sitarski a.k.a The Doctor

Jackson County Indiana ( 38.5244N 86.023W )

& Clay County Illinois ( 38.4008N 88.2908W )


From: "Bernie Daniel" bdaniel"at"cinci.rr.com
To: "The Doctor" sytyf"at"yahoo.com, "BLUEBIRD" BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Oval shaped entrance holes can be deadly to nestlings
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:44:24 -0400

Yes Bob,

I agree with you, oval holes are an idea that I am no longer enamored with. For one thing they are more work to make. 

I may stand corrected on this BUT, it seems to me, that the best studies on proving the concept that Bluebirds "like/prefer" them are either not scientifically done, not statistically analyzed if they were done with a proper format and number, or were inconclusive. 

So, I believe that the Mountain Bluebirds folks have given us all the "good way" to go. That is, the 1 9/16" 3D 1.56" 3D 39.4 mm ROUND hole. It's great.

The $25 that I paid for a 1 9/16" hole saw about 6 years ago was money well invested -- it has cut hundreds of neat clean holes in nest box doors. For quick reference, you can often find metric sized hole saws if not English: 1 1/2" 3D 37.8 mm 1 9/16" 3D 39.4 mm 1 5/8' 3D 41 mm 1 11/16 3D 42.5 mm 1 3/4" 3D 44.1 mm

Every box I make now has a 6" front roof overhang, that shades and protects a 4" X 9" rough-cut red cedar door that has a 1/2" ventilation slot at the top, and a 1 9/16" round hole centered and 1 1/2" down from the top. Works for me.

Bernie Daniel, Pres.
Ohio Bluebird Society
N39.24937 W84.31025
----- Original Message -----
From: The Doctor
To: BLUEBIRD
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:26 AM
Subject: Oval shaped entrance holes can be deadly to nestlings

...


Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 13:12:28 -0400
From: "Fawzi P. Emad femad <at> fpemad <dot> com
Subject: Entrance holes...
To: bblll BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu

Here are my private (unsolicited) opinions about entrance holes:

1. I have seen starlings enter the oval hole (made to exacting specs.) Hence, I do not use oval holes on any of my boxes. Also, it takes quite a bit more work to make an oval hole as compared to the round one.

2. The round 1-9/16" hole is the best size for ALL Bluebirds (Eastern, Mountain and Western.) It is not as easy to find this size of bit, but in my earlier e-mail I recommended a place where a 1-9/16" Forstner bit can be purchased. This is the best bit to use, even in a hand-held electric drill. It is best to use a drill-press for such size holes, regardless of type of bit used.

3. For the Eastern Bluebird a 1-1/2" hole may be used, but the adults will get a bit ruffled due to the tight fit or due to any roughness in the walls of the hole. The extra 1/16" relieves the adults, yet still prevents starlings from entering the box.

4. After making the hole, round the edges with a 1/4" rounding-bit using a router. Use sanding paper to smooth the inside hole walls.

5. Make sure the hole does not face west when mounting the box. The box will get hot if the afternoon sun enters the box. All other directions are fine. In very hot places, I would avoid the east as well. This leaves the hole facing north and south as the coolest directions. Prevalent wind direction is another factor not considered here.

I hope these opinions (which come from experience,) are useful to some of you!

Fawzi Emad in Laytonsville, Maryland
femad"AT"comcast.net


Eastern Bluebird Photo by Wendell Long.  Click on photo to go to Wendell Long Photographs website. Eastern Bluebird.  Photo by Wendell Long

HOME - ASO

BEST OF INDEX
  Table of Contents

Articles
BB-L Reference Guide
Bluebird Box, The
  Table of Contents
Bluebird FAQ
Breeding Bird Survey
Bluebirders Pictures
Calls/Songs
Christmas Bird Count
Commercial Sites
Feeding Bluebirds
Forums/Mailing Lists
Gallery
Groups/Resources
Miscellaneous
Monitor Form
Nestbox Info
Personal Sites

First Egg 2000
First Egg 2001
First Egg 2002
Over Winter 2001
Over Winter 2002

Search

BEST OF BLUEBIRD_L CLASSIFIEDS HOME | Audubon Society of Omaha | The Bluebird Box | Bluebird FAQs | Search | Contact me
All material was originally posted on the Bluebird_L or Bluebird mailing list, and has been reposted here with slight modifications to make the posts more readable in an HTML format.  In cases in which quoted material has been deleted to save space, this is indicated by an ellipsis (...)
For more information about Bluebird_L, check out http://www.cit.corn.edu/cit-pubs/email/using-lists/index.htm. If you wish to contact the author of a post, you will need to edit the e-mail address, replacing "at" with the "at" symbol (above the number 2 on your keyboard). (This change was made to discourage spammers.)
If you are the author of a posting and would like to see a particular post (or posts) removed from these web pages, please contact me with the web page address, title of post, and date and time of the post(s), and I will remove whatever material you like.  If you have a different opinion from one posted here, you need not contact me, as often I will have a different opinion too. The intent is to try and provide both sides to the issues facing bluebirders, and to do so in an impartial and objective manner.
If you have problems, encounter broken links (unless they are within an e-mail thread, as I do not maintain those links), or have suggestions on how the site can be improved to make it more useful, please contact the Best of Bluebird-L Classifieds webmaster
Website design by Chimalis