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Nestboxes (Material - other than cedar & pine)Also see Nestboxes Made of Plastic Bottles or Milk Cartons In addition to Messages that have appeared in the Bluebird Mailing Lists on this topic, the following are on the Audubon Society of Omaha website:
From: "Fread J" firefrost2"at"hotmail.com In Colonial and Victorian eras, the wood of choice for numerous construction projects, came from the Bald Cypress (Taxodium distichum).Due to its relative slow growth, the growth rings are much tighter creating a dense (32 pounds per cubic foot) lumber with superb anti-checking or warping traits. This dense wood has the color and grain of Heart Pine. Although it is softer than Heart Pine and Red Oak it is hard enough to be used for flooring. It has a hardness similar to Wild Cherry or Chestnut. In times past it was used for interior moldings,doors, and paneling. Due to its "water-tightness" it was an excellent choice for cooperage, shingles, tanks, vats, ship and boat building as well as being used for railroad cars. Cypress wood contains the natural preservative cypressene which gives it excellent rot resistance without the need for pressure treating applications with salts and heavy metals (i.e Copper, Chromated Arsenic). It is a renewable resource. Protected in wetland areas, there are still significant stands of harvestable lumber available. Selectively harvested, it is a sustainable specie. A water-loving specie, Bald Cypress can attain heights of 145'. It has the unique distinction of being a deciduous conifer, losing its needles each fall. Hence its name "BALD" cypress. The round, ball-like cone it produces is a food item for squirrels, wild turkey, and wood duck. Prothonotary warblers reach their highest population densities in stands of cypress and tupelo where they will often nest in rotted "cypress knees". "Cypress knees" are interesting structures produced by the root system
of the Bald Cypress. Properly known as pneumatophores these knee-like growths
provide additional support in wet soils and also aerate the water-logged roots.
In addition to these structures, Cypress trees often form buttresses, a swelling
of the lower trunk to provide additional support. Fread J. Loane Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:42:39 -0400 Is there no longer any concern over the urea formaldehyde in exterior-grade plywood? Grooms & Peterson mention it in their 1991 Symbol of Hope book, but I haven't seen it since; and many of the newer publications are recommending plywoods? Dot From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Although harder to work with, some of these woods might be good to build nestboxes out of. It must be noted that all of these HAD to be only from heart wood and would contain NO sapwood. They also were stating that nearly all of the "old growth" trees that you could harvest these quality ties from had already been cut that were accessible to loggers by 1934. I am going to list them from #1 13 as they were actually broken up into four different price groups with each succeeding group/species being a lower value for railroad ties. Each species (group of species) should have the notation "heart" before it but I am going to drop it for this group. This was a school book and the chapter on wildlife and the feeding habits of birds was very interesting. It is a shame my son Shawn will never see this quality of text book in any of his classes! #113 Black Locust, White Oak, Black Walnut; Douglas Fir, Pines, Larches;Cedars, Cypresses, Redwood; Catalpas, Chestnut, Sazzzfras, Red Mulberry. You might note that Chestnuts for lumber are now extinct. They listed this tree as the most dominant tree east of the Mississippi and that it had the best wood for the most varied of lumber uses of any species of tree. It was also listed as the number one tree for producing food (mast) for wildlife and was the main source of food for the billions of passenger pigeons in the 1800's. I have only ever seen one sazzzfras tree in Texas that was large enough to cut a tie out of. They said the Long Leaf and Loblolly pines in the south matured at "5 to 6 foot diameter trees." There were 23 other species or closely related groups of species of trees that were also listed that could be treated and used for railroad ties in addition to the above 13. KK Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:02:57 -0000 Check out this Web address for a comprehensive listing of Safe/Toxic woods for birds: http://www.birdsafe.com/wood.htm. I believe the article refers to new wood - not dried(air/kiln). ... Fred Yeager, Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:42:08 -0400 Fawzi Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:47:37 -0400 Fawzi, Fred Yeager, ******** Safe and Dangerous Woods I would like to thank Pat Zaccardi of Feathers
& Fun, and she would like to express her appreciation to all of the folks
on the following Onelist Groups (Now EGroups): Cockatoos, Conures, and Conurepics. SAFE & UNSAFE WOOD FOR BIRDS Wash all wood in a bleach solution, rinse then
for small branches bake in SAFE Acacia, Almond, Apple, Apricot (*see note below), Arbutus, Ash, Aspen, Bamboo, Beech, Birch, Bois d'arc (*see note below), Bottle Brush, Cherry (*see note below), Citrus, Cork Oak (*see note below), Cottonwood, Crabapple, Dogwood, Elm, Eucalyptus (*see note below), Fig Species, Fir, Fruitless Mulberry, Ginkgo, Grape Vines, Grape Palm, Guava, Hackberry, Hawthorn, Hazelnut, Hibiscus, Hickory, Horse Apple (*see note below), Ironwood, Larch, Lilac, Liquidamber, Madrona, Magnolia, Manzanita, Maple, Mediterranean Laurel, Mesquite (remove thorns), Mimosa, Mulberry, Nectarine (*see note below), Norfolk Island Pine, Nut (except Chestnut & Oak), Oak (wood only, no bark or leaves), (*see note below), Palm, Papaya, Peach (*see note below) Pear, Pecan, Pine, Plum (*see note below), Poplar, Prune (*see note below), Ribbonwood, Rose, Sazzzfras, Sequoia (redwood) (*see note below), Spruce, Sweet Gum, Sycamore, Thurlow , Tree fern, Umbrella tree, Vine Maple, Walnut (Black Walnut may be dangerous), Willow (Goat, Pussy & Weeping) A couple of woods appear on safe lists that
shouldn't or should be noted that there are problems with some species.
Redwood has long been associated with rashes and the dust with lung and eye
disorders. It contains high levels of volatile oils that are known toxins.
Further exposure is believed to suppress the immune system. UNSAFE Box Elder Wood: UNSAFE Black Locust has been cited as causing some toxic reactions with birds, though members of this species are also known as the Acacia, which is listed as safe. Gillian Willis on her website says "Do not use apricot, cherry, peach, prune, plum or nectarine. These trees all belong to the Prunus species. They contain cyanogenic glycosides which release cyanide if ingested. There is some disagreement over whether cherry, oak and eucalyptus are toxic. However the wood should be safe but avoid the leaves and seeds and in the case of oak and cherry the bark as well. (Safety on Cherry is questionable) London Tree is in the sycamore family, and is currently under research. Do not give the birds redwood. The oils the wood contains are toxic. But the biggest problem is if they get a splinter, redwood tends to block the immune response and they become infected quite easily. Oak appears on a number of toxic lists, primarily because of the tannin in the leaves and acorns. In the writer's opinion this is totally unjustified, the wood should be perfectly fine as it is not generally eaten and contains little tannin in most species. Cork Oak - (again avoid foliage and acorns) the bark of cork oak is safe for consumption even by humans whose tolerance for tannin is much lower than most bird species. Cork Oak is a safe wood to leave the bark on. Cork oak has very low levels of tannin (far lower then other oaks) and the bark is just what the name says 'Cork" Cork Oak is originally from southern Europe and is the source of all natural cork. The bark is very thick and well, cork like. It can be found wherever there are old wine growing areas as it was grown to provide corks for the bottles. It is also found scattered around the southeastern US and California. Because of it's very low tannin content it is safe for use in food storage (the cork in the wine bottle, oil bottles, etc.) There is a similar species found native to North America, the Prairie Oak a variety of live oak is found throughout the great plains and east to Ohio. It has a very thick cork like bark, however I do not know what the safety factor for this species would be. Information on the composition of woods and related materials can be found in a number of publications, I don't remember the names off hand, but any university that has a good botany or agronomy department, or your university agricultural extension service should be able to direct you to the appropriate references. When I was researching the safe woods for our birds the Calif State University Fresno Agricultural Dept was more than helpful, completely willing to answer any questions I had and to help me find the references. Eucalyptus - while it appears on many
toxic lists I have never been able to find a good reason for it being there.
The level of phenols (the toxic elements in eucalyptus) is lower than in many
pine species which are considered perfectly safe. While you might want
to avoid the foliage there doesn't appear to be any reason to do so. Considering
that many lorikeet and cockatoo species eat the flowers and new leaves in the
wild, and that it is the dominant native wood for Australia concern over it's
toxicity seems exaggerated. Oak (except Tan Oak which should be avoided because of the VERY high tannin content) though there is some controversy about Oak it appears that the wood should be safe. the bark leaves and especially the acorns have much higher levels of tannins and should be avoided. While many bird species including many parrots regularly feed on nuts and vegetation that have levels of tannin much higher than oaks, it is unclear how their bodies deal with the substance and it is therefore probably advisable to avoid high doses. Cherry - this one is really controversial. there are confirmed cases of dogs and of horses having fatal reactions to eating cherry wood. However I have been unable to find any confirmed report of bird fatalities. Regardless the sap is what contains the toxic elements (see Gillians Help pages) and that is contained primarily in the Cambium, a layer of material just below the bark. If cherry is to be used it should be dry, debarked and any traces of sap removed. Under no circumstances should fresh cherry, the foliage or bark be given to birds. Ginkgo - While the female Ginkgo may have an unpleasant smell the wood, bark and foliage all appear to be safe. Hemlock - The wood that is sold in lumber yards (sometimes called Hem Fir) is safe but the foliage is toxic. No other species of hemlock should be considered safe. Alder - The wood appears to be safe, but I have not been able to confirm this. Chinese Magnolia - The wood, foliage and flowers all appear to be safe, but I have been unable to confirm this. According to CSUF biologist and agronomists they could see no reason to consider it dangerous (it is not a known toxic plant) but know of no reason to consider it completely safe either. Cedar occasionally appears on safe lists. If Cedar is to be used, Red cedar should be avoided for the same reasons as redwood. Yellow and Sitka Cedar may be safe though. Laurel appears on most toxic lists. Most Laurel species are toxic but the Mediterranean Laurel is safe. Distinguishing the species can be difficult though and unless the species is known absolutely it should be avoided. One plant that deserves mention as it occasionally appears in gardens as an exotic ornamental is the Chinese Snake Tree. This is a VERY TOXIC plant and even contact with the sap (through the skin) can present the risk of fatality to small animals and children. It is sometimes called the Lacquer plant because it was the source of lacquer. Also to be avoided is the Pitch Pine.
It was the source material for turpentine and has VERY high levels of phenols.
Contact with the wood can cause rashes and the fumes from burning it have been
known to cause lung and eye disorders. Bois d'arc, which is also called the Horse Apple tree, and this is in the Mulberry family and is a safe wood but I had to write a lot of bird folks. *** Fred Yeager, From: Orley Bourland [mailto:pegorley"at"erols.com] Orley Bourland From: "Jim McLochlin" bluebirdbox"at"cox.net Orley, I believe I do remember this topic coming up, but I can't remember what the outcome was. Although I have a very limited background in nest box construction. I don't believe there would be a problem making the roof out of the plastic lumber. If adequate ventilation is used the whole box could be constructed from this material. The next major problem is how well does it protect the birds from the heat/cold. In other words what is the R factor compared to wood? Obviously it would no be any worse than that of boxes made from PVC. I will keep looking, but in the meantime I will send your question and my response on to the mailing list bluebird-l. Jim McLochlin Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:52:35 -0800 Linda Violett - Yorba Linda, Calif. In response to the fellow who had deterioration with plastic/sawdust lumber, perhaps the brand of product or method of attachment (nails?/screws?) caused the nestbox deterioration. We installed a small platform at our mountain cabin using the brand, Trex (available at Home Depot), several years ago. No warping, no deterioration, no maintenance of the platform has been necessary in spite of cold mountain conditions. If I didn't have to hoist nestboxes up into trees, I would have already made a few nestboxes from this product. Trex is solid (not hollow core) and would seem to be an excellent material for sturdy nestboxes with long life and high insulation qualities. ... From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas This material is over thick (about 1&1/8") and I made some nestboxes last night out of full 1"x6" wood lumber and this creates a nestbox with a floor of 3&3/4" X 6" or about 22.5 square inches. Try a few and experiment. You can add a second "shade" roof over the main roof out of Hardi-board a cement material that Ron Kingston and others have been using in Virginia for many years. This is fairly thin and really needs a wood or possibly the plastic flooring under it to provide extra insulation. I use this cement board on roofs for large boxes like wood ducks and it resists rot and squirrel damage. There is a high damage rate on this material during shipping and handling and most lumber stores will give away the broken/damaged siding that is 8" in width by 12 feet long.... Jack Finch, "Homes for Bluebirds" in North Carolina has been wrapping his wood roofs for more than 20 years with thin sheetmetal and this makes them nearly "lifetime" of the trail monitor! He is also getting MANY years out of the boxes made from Paulownia wood. On page 58 of the "Bluebird Monitor's Guide" there is a picture of Jack standing beside a SIX year old Paulownia tree. The new hybrids of Paulownia Elongata are going to be a terrific tree for timber and shade all across the south (hardy to -10*F.) They make excellent light weight nestboxes. Being a Texas Master Gardener and being in and around the nursery business for twenty years I did not believe the reports of growth on these trees but Jack sent me 12 pieces of root of this tree on May 19, 2001 and I transplanted one in the ground on June 19,2001 (I started them in 2 gallon buckets & gave most away and planted a few more in July and August) and in 16 months it was 30 feet tall, over 20 wide on the crown and at eye level the trunk measures over 7" in diameter. ANY tree that consistently grows 60" tall in both July and August in my area of Texas AND makes good wood for nestboxes will be great for saving our southern forests! In the back of "The Bluebird Monitor's Guide" under suppliers you can buy mealworms, dogwood berries, boxes, traps, feeders ETC directly from bluebirders like Jack Finch (who grows and ships dogwood berries, white mulberry tree cuttings just for bluebirds & also sells Paulownia cutting for $2 each), Gilbertson, Van Ert, Springer, Ahlgren, ETC. David Magness for example is an avid bluebirder, created Jenna Bird and sells mealworms, traps and nestboxes ETC. Most of these guys sell at a fraction of the cost of the big mail-order catalogs....AND they ALL maintain trails! ... KK From: abitabar"at"bellsouth.net I was at the local Wild Bird Center yesterday and saw an aluminum nest box. Has anyone else seen or used these before? It had double-walled sides to keep it cool, which, here in Louisiana, is great for our loo..oong, hot summers. (I suppose that feature would make it a poor winter roosting box but it might be worth it for people like me with only a few boxes to change it out for a wood box in winter.) Speaking of nest boxes, they had a big assortment of them for bb's and other birds, of course, but most all have the standard small roof with almost no overhang. Why is it that most nest boxes are made this way? Why haven't most manufacturers caught up with the fact that larger roofs are better? To answer my own question, I guess it is cheaper to make and ship with a smaller roof. And perhaps the uneducated consumer thinks the smaller roof looks better. Barbara From: "Keith & Sandy Kridler" kridler"at"1starnet.com Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant Texas The aluminum nestbox is made by nature house, one of two large Purple Martin house manufactures. I have one but have not checked the heat gain in it as compared to wood nestboxes. It really does look like it will be fine for southern areas. Small roof size: When we ship they measure the size of the box and adjust by the weight. A very large roof may double actual shipping costs. Also the more overhang the more leverage and the easier it is to get the box crushed and the roof destroyed. Heat retained for roosting boxes. We participated in the Cornell Data Logger research on heat this past year. Thick wood boxes retaining more heat on a cold windy night than thin boxes is a MYTH. These data loggers recorded temperatures every two hours from March till August. The temperature inside about four different styles of nestboxes remained just about identical with outside temperature readings even when temperatures dropped 21* C in a two hour period. With out heaters in a nestbox the open entrance hole keeps the inside and outside temperatures about the same. It would make a bigger difference plugging up ventilation cracks and facing the roost boxes away from prevailing winds than the type of material the box is made of. Reduce wind chill inside the boxes to help roosting birds. Sun adds a LOT of heat so when the sun strikes a nestbox THEN type of material and thickness make a difference. By one hour after sunset no matter what direction or material or thickness the nestbox is made of the temperature will be the same inside and out. (within a degree or two C) ... KK From: "Larry A Broadbent" rockets"at"mnsi.net Hi Haleya, I told John R.C from Maryland about MDO Plywood, and now he is interested in trying the stuff out for his Kestrel boxes and some of his other cavity nesting bird nestboxes. It's available in 1/2" , 5/8", 3/4" etc. If you need to know more about MDO Plywood, just ask, and I'll send you URL Links. I will be using MDO Plywood for roofs on some of my Bluebird nestboxes as well as the entire box for some Kestrel boxes. Regards, From: Adthomas10"at"cs.com Hi Haleya Dan Thomas From: "emcooper" emcooper"at"bayou.com About a year ago, we had discussion about putting Plexiglas on the nestbox for viewing. Does anyone know if this was purchased or someone made one? I had someone ask me and I forgot if you could buy it or not. Evelyn Cooper Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:54:09 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
They had a nest inside of the light fixture which was frustum shaped with the top being the only side that was metal and all others were glass. Each panel was approximately 12"wide at the top, 10" at the bottom and maybe 7" tall. Needless to say it was an unusually shaped birdhouse and I wonder who made the house selection. Opening to floor had absolutely zero drop distance and hole opening must have been close to 77 square inches. Somebody was in major violation of EABL birdhouse codes unless this a new contemporary version that I am unaware of. To add to the mystic of this my friends advised that earlier in the spring while the weather was much colder they actually kept the light turned on day and night for the birds warmth while the illumination didn't appear to create a problem. They must have kept late night hours unless they stuck their heads under their wings like some birds do. Anybody have a clue on that subject? Even though they were well out of reach from crawling, jumping and walking predators almost any flying predator had a wide open shot at them2E Maybe they thought it allowed a much wider escape route but I don't think that it would provide adequate protection for hatchlings. My friends were selling their house the next day so I'll probably never determine
the feasibility of this bird house design. From: Keith & Sandy Kridler, txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net ... I gave cavity nesters talks yesterday to 5 sophomore English classes and one of the boys talked about getting sprayed with a skunk. His mom tied his smelly shoes to the barbed wire fence and a week later when he went to get his tennis shoes there was a bluebird sitting on eggs in one of the shoes. Some people claim that bluebirds imprint on a certain style of nestbox and search for the "exact" style they were born in.....I can't imagine spending $100 for NIKE, air Jordan open top nestshoes......Do you think right or left nestshoes will make a difference:-))) Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas From: Tina Phillips, cbp6"at"cornell.edu Happy New Year! A colleague of mine is interested in getting information about the usefulness of nesting pockets. These trendy items are being sold increasingly, (particularly targeted to gardeners) and are made from woven materials. If you do a Google search on "nesting pockets" you will see dozens of links for them. While I have never used these pockets, I am guessing that they lack any insulative properties and are easy access for predators. Additionally, I am not sure how easy they would be to clean and monitor. Does anyone on this list have any first hand experience using these nesting structures? Thanks in advance, Tina Phillips The Birdhouse Network Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Rd. Ithaca, NY From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Global economy materials for nest boxes John, Many people probably know about the recycled milk jugs "plastic" wood for decks, etc. Very durable, can be drilled, etc. My husband does stream restoration work & they have used this "fake" wood as fish shelters for years. I use his scraps for various outdoor projects - great as it does not rust or rot. However, I don't particular like the nuance of it for cavity nesters - doesn't seem "natural" LOL. But, any roofs made out of it would certainly not crack & split. I don't have the website name with me - if you are interested, I could email it to you later. IMO, one reason that it's expensive is that they are marketing it as "environmentally friendly". Those 2 words seem to add $$$. Also, there still isn't a big enough market for mass-collection of plastics & factory production. So far, I agree that the redwood lumber is a good way to go. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central) From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] The Russian made 1/2" Birch plywood in this area is made with exterior glue but is intended for interior use for cabinetry and probably will have a limited life on nestboxes. To test plywood for exterior durability you can pour very hot water over it and let it soak for several days in a pan or bucket of water. Let it dry completely in the sun and repeat the process the next week. If it is not coming apart at the edges then it should last for several years nailed together as a nestbox. One of the best exterior plywood's is call B-B Plyform. It is carried by some lumber stores who cater to firms who build concrete forms for pouring concrete retaining walls. It is 3/4" thick and has a trace of mineral oil in the wood to help it resist the high heat and moisture in curing concrete. If you have more time than money for nestboxes then using scrap interior plywood from cabinet shops will still provide you with a nestbox for 2- 4 years. I often give less durable nestboxes to people who I believe will NOT be long term monitors of the box. The cement board made by the Jim Hardie company makes good roof material for the larger cavity nester boxes. The recycled plastic deck boards make very heavy nestboxes to carry and try to mount. Americans consume on average 5 & 1/2 billion pounds of wood every single day. According to the Texas Forest service we cut about 400,000 acres of Texas forest a year and in 2000 Texas successfully replanted 116,000 acres of timber. (Land planted that the trees survived till the second year.) That is bad news if you are a chickadee or a woodpecker and great news if you are a bluebird! KK From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] From: John Schuster [mailto:wildwingco"at"earthlink.net] From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot"at"mtco.com] From: NP551"at"aol.com [mailto:NP551"at"aol.com] From: XXX [mailto:Rebecca] http://www.homestore.com/HomeGarden/HomeImprovement/Features/Summer/BeachHouseSiding.asp?poe=homestore ”Siding: “Wood, stucco and fiber-cement are the three siding materials most often used for coastal homes. Fiber-cement, such as HandiPlank, is a fairly recent product, and its ability to stand up to humidity, rain, salt air, and high winds, is earning it rave reviews. “"Fiber-cement, or concrete siding, as we call it, is a terrific product for beach homes," comments New Jersey builder John Goodhue. "We have found that it is totally wind-proof, which is the most important consideration at the Jersey shore. It looks like wood, requires very little maintenance and can be painted any color…”. Also: The James Hardie Handiplank website is http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner.htmRebecca
J. From: Shane&Emily Marcotte [mailto:marco50"at"bellsouth.net] I frame houses with this stuff as the siding.....its correctly called "hardiplank". This stuff is excellent when primed and painted and caulked. I used it on parts of my house which I built 4 yrs ago and it is looking just fine! Much better than the days of "masonite" siding! Happy Bluebirding, Shane M Watson La From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ"at"columbus.rr.com] We have a 2-year old house built out of this material and from what we can see so far, it is absolutely wonderful stuff. I am talking about a people house, not a bird house. If I was handy and had been thinking, I would have saved some of the scrap to build a bird box with. The site with products and widths etc. can be found at: http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/prodhome/default.php The trend in the Columbus, Ohio area for past 4 years or so (since Hardiplank hit the market) is to build upscale custom homes with this material. They have used it for the past several years on the "Parade of Homes" houses that are regionally featured every year here. Our new home is actually on South Bass Island on Lake Erie. They also used this material for the Perry Monument Visitor's Center on same island. What we love about the material is: it is beautiful - actually looks better than wood in our opinion. It is a concrete composite siding that has wood grain added to it and the planks are wide - wider than standard cedar siding we have on our other house. It comes primed. When/if you paint it, it soaks up the paint. The paint is not just on surface as you have with natural wood. I cannot imagine having to repaint at all unless due to sun fading as paint chipping does not seem possible. It's not flammable. It does not warp. Things to be careful of when working with it: being a concrete composite siding, it can chip off pieces. Wear proper ventilation masks when cutting material because the concrete dust should not be inhaled. This is really dusty stuff to work with and dust if very fine. The board cross section does taper slightly so may be difficult to make a great looking nest box. I would recommend trying to get scrap from a building site if they are using the material for new construction in your area. Last spring, our yard was full of brush and scrap. We did have a fire to burn the scrap and an interesting thing happened. A killdeer made her nest amongst the charcoal from the fire and little chips of Hardiplank. It was an excellent nest as the eggs were practically invisible with that camouflage. I actually saved her "nesting" material and plan to dump it in the yard to see if they use it again. Paula Z Powell (Central) Ohio From: Shane&Emily Marcotte [mailto:marco50"at"bellsouth.net] From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net]
Texas Ron Kingston and the Virginia bluebirders have been using Hardi Board for years for nestbox roofs. Since this is normally a thin material and concrete is brittle and fractures without pilot holes it would be nearly impossible to build a nestbox totally out of this material without masonry drill bits and concrete anchors. On the other hand it works very good on larger nestboxes IF you use some wood and attach the Hardi board to the wood with either nails or the special hardi board screws. I like to build wood duck nestboxes or owl boxes with 2"X12" lumber for front, back and bottom and the sides and roof from Hardi board. You could do the same with 2"x6" lumber for "Bluebird" nestboxes and use the Hardi board for the rest of the nestbox. 3/4" thick lumber with hardi board attached with nails just 3/8" from the edge just will not hold up as the cement board will end up breaking at the nail holes. Cutting Hardi Board: We have used this product for years & I bought a special electric shear to cut this many years ago and it still cuts flawlessly with NO DANGEROUS dust put out in the air. Most stores that sell hardi board also sell the shear or many will rent the shear for a day. If it is NOT painted then overtime acid rain will soften the already brittle sheets. Baseballs and golf balls will break this material occasionally on a house. Hardi Board scrap: Most lumber stores will sell or give you broken sheets of this material (or damaged, split wood boards) if you are building nestboxes for a local project. KK From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net]
Keith, et al, Is it possible to cut this HardiBoard product on a circular table saw? Is it bad for saw blades? Is it dangerous to the person doing the sawing? Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Shane&Emily Marcotte [mailto:marco50"at"bellsouth.net] It will dull a regular saw blade really quickly.........you can purchase a blade that will cut it but the blade is very expensive.The shears KK refers to are the best route if your going to be cutting lots of hardiplank. As he also states the shears produce little if any dust. When you cut it with a sawblade the dust is horrible and cant be good for you or the envirement. Also I suggest wearing gloves when working with this product as it will dry out your hands tremendously. Tough stuff though and if it doesnt get wet it seems as it will last forever. Good luck, Shane Marcotte Watson Louisiana From: PTom [mailto:ptom"at"austin.rr.com] From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:56 PM Subject: Nestbox insulation - wood vs plastic Here's something I don't understand - why do we recommend using 3/4 - 1" lumber for nestboxes instead of 1/2" for insulation … when a Gilbertson or PVC box walls are so thin? Does thin plastic insulate better? Bet from CT From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net] From: Elizabeth Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"tds.net] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 10:52 PM Subject: Re: Nestbox insulation - wood vs plastic Bet, I've never understood how thin plastic provided any insulation at all. I've never used it, so I have no experience with it. Are there any accurate figures on the relative R values of wood versus plastic? I've never seen any. Would thin plastic make a warm enough box for winter roosting, or for chilly nights in the nesting season? In nature, these birds nest in hollow tree trunks, which are even thicker than a box made of full 1" stock. I wouldn't dream of making a Bluebird box out of 1/2" stock. I even think that the standard 3/4" stuff is too flimsy. And in my lumber mill/store 1/2" costs more because they have to run the boards through the planer one more time. Bruce Burdett, SW NH From: Rappaho"at"aol.com [mailto:Rappaho"at"aol.com] Hi all, Plastic has no insulation power. It has no air pockets in which to trap air. Wood is not solid, it has small air pockets which trap air. Trapped air is what makes for insulation. Kathy. -----Original Message----- From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 7:37 PM To: ezdz"at"charter.net; BLUEBIRD-L"at"cornell.edu Subject: RE: Nestbox insulation - wood vs plastic This question about thin wall PVC reminds me of an article I saw on another listserve by Dick Tuttle. His loss was great the previous year with Chickadees and he felt sure it was the thin wall PVC pipe. He felt wood was the better insulator. Delhi, LA Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Nestboxes get designed and tested in different parts of the country to fill a need for certain weather and checking conditions. Steve's PVC nestboxes are made from Sewer and Drain pipe and have walls 1/16" thick because this pipe is not designed to withstand high pressure water or air. We have been using the schedule #40 high pressure PVC pipe since 1975 in Texas that has 1/4" thick walls. As others have stated PVC pipe is dense and has little insulation qualities. On the other hand COLOR is more important on nestboxes if you want to keep inside temperatures down on nestboxes mounted in full sun. Remember Purple Martin houses made of .035" thick white aluminum one half the thickness of Sewer and Drain is perfectly safe for the birds when mounted in full sun. Aluminum conducts heat and cold 12 times more rapidly than glass so one square inch of aluminum on your window frame that connects the outside to the inside of your house without a thermal break in the aluminum will negate 12 square inches of insulated glass. In heat tests of various styles of nestboxes placed in full sun, white 1/4" thick walled PVC pipe is normally cooler than a natural wood colored nestbox. What I am trying to show is that millions of birds are raised in aluminum houses each year in nestboxes that have NO insulation value. If baby birds are dying of hypothermia in a nestbox then the adult female is to blame (or extreme weather) and NOT the nestbox style! Inside a nestbox the nest should be dry and have greatly reduced wind chill. The nest material the female chooses should insulate the eggs and young birds and she should brood them enough to maintain body heat. Think of the hundreds of millions of birds nesting in open nests in northern states during extremely rainy/cold months with no walls or roof to protect their nests at all! These birds have survived the elements for millions of years and the females with poor nestbuilding skills and poor brooding/feeding skills are supposed to lose their young so only the best will survive the next million years.KK From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] I touched on insulation properties of nestboxes in the last post and it would be GREAT for people on this list all over the country to join Cornell next year in using the data loggers in different styles of nestboxes. As Tina said you don't have to learn to program the data loggers as they will send them to you postage paid ready to install. This way we might be able to learn for sure if tree swallows are dying of hypothermia or something more sinister! We would know if eggs laid on an almost bare wood bottom are hotter/colder than those with a good nest under them. We could even experiment with insulated bottoms in nestboxes:-)) IF you want the ultimate high insulation R-value nestbox then go out and buy 1/2 gallon wide mouth insulated plastic thermos jugs...They are just about the perfect size for a bluebird nestbox. Drill entrance, drain and ventilation holes and mount them for the birds. You can check and clean them by unscrewing the top...Old three and five gallon plastic water coolers make great owl and wood duck nestboxes. Insulation value of wood is in direct proportion to the individual boards density. The lighter the board per square foot the higher the resistance to heat or cold traveling through the material. Ebony wood sinks in water and has little R-value. Balsa wood and Paulownia are the two lightest weight commercial woods in widespread use in the world. Paulownia weights twice as much as Balsa wood but has twice the bursting strength so a half thickness of Paulownia can be used to get the same weight to strength ratio of Balsa Wood. A custom built, 12 foot long Balsa wood speed boat coated with fiberglass will weight less than 112 pounds. Paulownia wood on average is 1/2 the weight of oak wood it is 40% lighter than yellow pine and has double the insulation R-value of yellow pine per inch of thickness. On page 58 of The Bluebird Monitor's Guide is a picture of Jack Finch with a Paulownia Elongata tree that is 6 years old. He is harvesting 10 year old trees that he planted and building nestboxes from them and you can order a lightweight Paulownia bluebird nestbox that I guarantee will NEVER have a door on the box that sticks! I have one of Jack's trees that at three years old was 40 feet tall, 30 feet wide with a 12" diameter trunk "at" 54" off the ground and is still growing at a rate of 3/4" in diameter a month. All wood needs to be COMPLETELY sealed on all sides and especially the ends to maintain R-value. Wood will soak up water during rains and lose the insulation value just like your ski suit will if you get it soaked. We have a local OSB (orchestrated strand board/plywood) plant (Canadian owned) that is producing 4 million square feet of 7/16" thick boards a day! This is 35,000 acres covered up every year with resin coated wood chips. How many trees do they cut in a year? KK From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Why do people that use the plastic containers or jugs for Prothonotary Warblers use dark brown on the outside and black on the inside? Even though they place them in the shade, looks like that would still be hotter. We tried using half a plastic tank cut and turned upside down for a dog house and it was so hot they couldn't stand it. We scratched that idea. It was unbearable. I don't like plastic anything for wildlife or animals to live in. Evelyn From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper"at"bayou.com] Below is an excerpt from a post to the Ohio Listserve that Dick Tuttle wrote. Note that he used 1/8" THIN Wall. He observed that Chickadees that nested in wooden nextboxes nearby were more successful. This led him to believe the thin wall PVC is not as good especially in that kind of severe weather. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA Louisiana Bayou Bluebird Society "The timing of 2003's severe weather is reflected in the chickadees' struggle to raise hatchlings to fledge. Chickadees are excellent providers once eggs hatch; they routinely fledge over 90% of their hatched eggs if they hatch, they will fly. Nonetheless, last season saw frantic parents lose one of every four young. Is there more to this story than bad weather? Perhaps, and since a scientific protocol had not been followed, I have to go with my "gut feeling" for what might be wrong. The nest tubes that I originally designed for Prothonotary Warblers, and later modified for chickadees, might be too ventilated with walls too thin to adequately hold heat. The nest chambers are made of thin-walled (1/8") PVC drainpipe, and are ventilated with two large slots under their wooden roofs. Eight of nine nest failures took place in these nest tubes. In contrast, all four chickadee nest attempts at the Methodist Theological School and Perkins Observatory were successful in wooden nest boxes with minimum ventilation. Is wood good, and plastic bad? Possibly." From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Back in the summer, we had discussion on the List about people providing tin cans as homes for the birds. There was overwhelming voiced opinion against it. I think about two or three people thought it was o.k. I remember KK compared it to sitting in a hot car all day. I am writing this to show you how we think on the Bluebird List and how some other folks think. I received a brochure from Rodale Books promoting a book by Don and Lillian Stokes and one thing really caught my eyes. It said on a certain page that tin soup cans were Carolina Wren's dream homes! I could not help but wonder if they consider the extreme heat in the southern part of the country and to me all birds would suffer the same from the heat. I would not provide a tin can for the Bluebirds. (or any bird) To me, it is just too bad that more people will read that information than our opinions about tin cans as homes for the birds! Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Lawrence Herbert [mailto:lherbert "at"4state.com] Purple Martins use our "tin cans" regularly. Perhaps they are, for the most part, in and out by the time the baking hot weather begins. Usually single brooded per Colin Harrison, 1978, in "Nests, Eggs and Nestlings of N. A. Birds." Good birding, Larry H. Joplin MO. From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder "at"sbcglobal.net] Carolina Wrens make a nest that fits perfectly inside a one gallon paint can. These paint cans are about 7" in diameter and have a floor space of over 38 square inches compared to a Gilwood nestbox at around 14 square inches or 12 inches or so for a 4" PVC nestbox. "Tin can nestboxes" should NOT be placed in full sun in southern states or anywhere the temperature will reach the low 90's during nesting season. Carolina Wrens prefer to nest inside open buildings like carports, barns or abandoned houses with open windows. You can place empty paint buckets on their sides in various places in your carport to attract these wrens and the "tin can" will remain as cool as the inside of your garage. New paint cans are often made out of a heavy duty plastic. If these "tin cans" are painted white why would they be any hotter than the Plastic gourds sold for Purple Martin houses? Why would a white "tin can" be any hotter than a thin sheet metal Purple Martin house? More heat tests of nestboxes anyone? Back in the early 1970's from the Rocky Mountains of Colorado up into Banff Canada there were metal nestboxes installed on metal poles 6 feet or more above the ground. They were about the size of a paint can and came with two entrance holes stamped in them. You could either use the small 1&1/4" hole or the larger 1&9/16" hole by removing a plastic plug. They had a metal bottom and some had wood tops some metal tops. They were painted a bright orange color. They had writing on two sides of the nestbox. On one side it told that this was a multi use nestbox for various cavity nesters. On the other side it had a warning Message telling people that there were underground utilities near this spot and to call an 800 number before digging or excavating. In 2002 I was back up there in this area of Canada and these "tin can" nestboxes are still in use after more than 25 years. Someone at the "warning sign" company designed this nestbox using no more metal or paint than normal warning signs and they made and installed them by the thousands. We probably should look at designing a better type of nestbox that could be used as "dual use" warning or posted signs for major companies to use along their fence lines. KK From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] We are trying to be positive. For the birds. To do what is best. Lots of misinformation is spread and needs to be corrected. I don't think you have the right opinion of us if you think we are "know it alls", because we learn something new all the time. I can tell you for sure, most everything I write about is from EXPERIENCE and it is for my area of the USA, not other places. Also, we once tried a half plastic tank cut and turned upside down for a dog house and it was so hot in the shade they could not stay in it. I poked my head in the door of it and could not breathe. This is a discussion forum and not one to stifle any opinion or experience. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Keith, I see you mention Colorado. I don't know just how hot it gets there in the summer, but I would think that is not like our summers. I think that has more to do with what we choose than anything. Some people just do not bring that into consideration when they are recommending things. I see you have though. Evelyn From: Kenny Kleinpeter [mailto:kpkmajk "at"cox.net] While metal is used in a variety of martin housing, the difference is that they are ventilated. Having small holes in at least two directions allows for good airflow even on those hot, sultry summer days when high temperatures increase clutch failures. While airflow doesn't lower the temperature, it increases the transpiration rate of the birds so that they can better release their internal heat -- sort of like a windchill factor (I like to call it their comfort factor). So, a can with one hole in it is different than a properly ventilated martin house -- especially late in the season. I think nestboxes should have ventilation holes that can be opened only in the summer -- at least down here in LA. I certainly think the ventilation should be closed off for boxes used as winter roosts. From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] "Cardboard, plastic jugs, milk cartons and large tin cans provide little insulation (especially against heat) so should not be used." Above is a sentence from the NABS Fact Sheets. It is on the one "Questions Most Frequently Asked". LBBS believes "Education Is The Key" and we should not take our responsibilities lightly when we set out to raise any kinds of birds. It is harder to educate some than others, but for the most part, it is a joy. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: jwick "at"tds.net [mailto:jwick "at"tds.net] This is true, but we also need to do our best NOT do more damage than good when it comes to providing SAFE nesting opportunities for bluebirds. I continue to try my best to follow these 3 rules with regard to my bluebirding and bluebird banding activities: Rule #1: Do no harm. Rule #2: Expect the unexpected. Rule #3: Never say "Never." Thus far, these 3 rules have served me well for nearly 25 years. ... Ann Wick Black Earth, WI From: mrtony8 [mailto:mrtony8 "at"cox.net] my 2 cents worth wasn't asked for, but here it is any way. If anyone thinks a tin can is a safe haven for ANY bird, they are just plain WRONG!! my goodness, you could not get away with that here in nw florida in January, let alone during the "baking season: (as my friend Evelyn so aptly described it). No milk cartons, no cans, not even a proper box without some form of insulation. I use a double roofed box with 1/2" insulation between the roofs and it still gets hot in there. I am not a know it all, jsut a guy who cares very much about birds, all birds, but especialy the ones I try very hard to help out, Eastern Bluebirds, and others who use our boxes as well. Phil Bery now of Pensacola, Florida From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] I sure know a lot more than I did 7 years ago and I have dug for information, learned the hard way, had great advice from this list and never stop learning. Last season was my second to use the solar screen (something new I learned two seasons ago). On the second and third cycle, all my nestboxes look like they have their head scarves on. It helps the heat situation tremendously. There were no deaths on those cycles this year. Believe me, if I think something is detrimental to the birds, I will speak my mind regardless of the label some come out with. ... Evelyn From: Kenny Kleinpeter [mailto:kpkmajk "at"cox.net] Help me out here, Keith; by referencing this corporate nestbox program are you saying that erecting thousands of unmonitored nestboxes is a good idea? I've always heard (and believed) that an unmonitored nestbox is worse than no nestbox at all. It seems that the failure rates of these boxes would be horrible. You might say that these thousands of boxes are predator feeding stations rather than nestboxes. Thanks, Kenny Kleinpeter Baton Rouge, LA From: Torrey [mailto:torrey_canyon "at"yahoo.com] Does this subject really warrant so much mail? & so much of it kinda negative? Without seeing the "tin can" (or even an experimental box), I cannot make judgements about its suitability. Does it have adequate ventilation? Can it be fitted with a predator guard? Can it be easily checked & cleaned out? Will it be easy to carry out to the trail to mount? How long will it last? This list goes out to people from sub-tropical Florida to sub-arctic Canada. Things that work well at one extreme will likely not work at the other. I can accept that a coffee-type can might be perfectly acceptable somewhere, but I wouldn't use one. Drilling ventilation holes might leave sharp edges, the can would rust quicker than a wooden box would deteriorate, & it gets too hot here in the summer (most of my box locations are in full sun). Frankly, this whole discussion reminds me of this past election season. Shouldn't we be more mature than the politicians? Torrey Moss Kalamazoo Nature Center Kalamazoo, MI From: Lawrence Herbert [mailto:lherbert "at"4state.com] On my post of 11-22-04 I stated that Purple Martins use our "tin cans" regularly..." What I was saying, and may have been misunderstood, is that PUMA use martin houses all across the Midwest successfully. I also stated that PUMA are, for the most part, single brooded. I thought perhaps they fledge quite often at times because the really hot weather hasn't arrived yet. We don't have any tin cans laying around out back, or a Purple Martin house either, for that matter. But, if we did, the desirable song birds are welcome to have at it. Regarding temperature: Back in June, 1984, I found the temperature on the inside of a bluebird house to be the same as the temp. on the shade side of the nesting box. It was an extremely warm day, 100 F., as I recall. I realize that there was little "breeze" on the inside of the nesting site, but the actual temp. was the same nonetheless. (The EABL fledged successfully). Wish you all a nice Thanksgiving, Good birding, Larry H. Joplin MO. From: Dottie Roseboom [mailto:rosedot "at"mtco.com] Keith, this summer, we had a lovely Carolina Wren family use a 5 gallon can laying on its side, on a high shelf in our barn. She built her nest quite late in the WINTER, so the barn at that time provided shelter from cold, spring rains. Her babies fledged, while many of the bluebirds were just beginning to build nests. And you're so right about how wrens enjoy larger floor spaces. I was really hoping that she'd build the second nest in the barn, but guess that the barn swallows were too noisy. Even on our 95 degree summer days, metal buckets remain fairly cool in the barn. Next spring, an entire wall of empty buckets (mostly plastic) will be awaiting her arrival. Dottie Roseboom Peoria IL (central - zone 5) Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:04 PM Subject: Aluminum Martin Housing Those aluminum Martin houses are death traps. And I know PMCA does sell them on their web site--or at least they used to. I haven't looked lately. I bought one not knowing they were death traps. When I found out, I had my husband modify it from a 12 compartment to a 6 compartment. This gave the birds more room and also made it cooler. Actually, I have it down now and not using it. I went to all gourds. Dottie, Hickory Hollow Brown County, Indiana (50 miles south of Indianapolis) Lat: 39.371N Lon: 86.261W Zone 5 Elevation: 680 ft From: Kenny Kleinpeter [mailto:kpkmajk "at"cox.net] Now, Dottie you know I love you even if we ever disagree. :-) I don't think aluminum housing is the same as "tin cans." I love aluminum martin houses -- but I do convert them to double compartments like you said -- in fact, I have some converted to triple compartment but double compartments are all that the birds really utilize. The extra airspace just allows that much more ventilation -- the key to any box (martin, bluebird or otherwise) in hot weather. I've checked temperatures in gourds and aluminum houses and found no difference! Sometimes we forget that birds' temps run about 103 F. so, what we call uncomfortable may be just right to them. I think mortality from overheating starts to occur at about 110 F. As you alluded to, PMCA cares more about money than martins. Its director, Jamie Hill used to work for Trio Manufacturing, the largest producer of aluminum housing. He actually manufactures his own plastic gourds that he sells to his own "not-for-profit" corporation. He has finally disclosed the arms-length relationship in the last couple of tax returns for PMCA, I'm happy to say. :-) Aluminum housing -- like any housing are death traps if not properly managed. I find their adaptability, accessibility and over manageability to be superior over any other housing out there. From: Dottie, Hickory Hollow, Brown County, Indiana [mailto:yumyumkatts "at"voyager.net] I understand that a group of PM landlords went to Trio Manufacturing and asked them to change their dies in order to make the compartments bigger. But they wouldn't. Cost too much money. Thanks for the info on Mr. Hill. I didn't know he worked for Trio. Dottie, Hickory Hollow Brown County, Indiana From: Dick Stauffer [mailto:sapl "at"agt.net] Hi all: I live & have a nestbox trail in Central Alberta approx 60 miles from Banff. The tin cans that mark the underground utilities are open top & bottom. One used to be able to order from the utility company a bottom, top & meshing that went around the inside (allowing the birds to climb out). The program was called fur & feathers. This was discontinued at least 6-8 years ago. I know of only 1 of these containers that is used by a fellow nestbox monitor. There are not (to my knowledge) thousands of these used as nest sites. Dick Stauffer From: JOHN & BARBARA SIBIO [mailto:jsibio "at"comcast.net] Hi Horace and List, I had a problem a couple of years ago with a juvenile sharp-shinned hawk that was stalking my feeders. Fortunately, the feeders weren't close to my bluebird nestbox, but the hawk took several finches off the feeder, and a couple right out of the air, too! He/she would perch on the fence about nine feet from the feeder, and just wait. Whenever I spotted it there, I would go frighten it off banging pot lids; one time I chased it with a broom, like a lunatic! It was fearless, but finally matured and left the area. It just seemed to hang around because it was young, and it was roosting under my neighbors' eaves till the fall. Hopefully the hawk at your friend's feeders will move on, also. You're right, it's just nature, but we do all we can to protect "our" birds! Barbara in Cloverdale, CA From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder "at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re:tin cans/more info Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas The instructions on the warning sign partial nestbox tell how to install or get a top and how to maintain the completed nestbox as I recall. We only checked a handful of completed nestboxes as they are well off of the roads and VERY few landowners are taking advantage of possible free nestboxes and we did not see any with current nests. About the same number of people you see putting up nestboxes of their own when you drive across the country were fixing up these free nestboxes! These commercial tin can nestboxes have a stamped entrance hole that is also "rolled" inward to create a non sharp edge to the sheetmetal. The trouble with making a homemade tin can nestbox is where to put the entrance hole so that it will NOT be sharp! You would almost need to use a double deep medium can like the half gallon V-8 juice comes in and then cut out one end and replace it with wood with the entrance hole in the wood and then mount/hang the can sideways. When we moved to Mt. Pleasant in 1964 there was a high school teacher who had the students save the tin cans that coffee comes in the whole school year and then in April the FFA boys would convert these into "bluebird" This was probably the reason I saw my first bluebird the first day I was in Texas! While the FFA boys were installing hundreds of "tin cans" I was installing hundreds of birdhouse gourds each year. Gourds and tin cans ARE both easy for predators to raid. I still found rusty "tin cans" being used by bluebirds well into the 80's. This type tin can nestbox also appears in many of the pre World War II books on how to build nestboxes. Gallon cans were recommended to be attached to barns under the eaves during this period for Robins, Phoebe's, Barn Swallows, House wrens ETC to nest on top of or inside of. We sometimes get really caught up in protecting OUR bluebirds from ALL predators! If a raccoon does not eat a nestbox full of bluebirds tonight does that mean it will NOT eat ANY OTHER birds! An active raccoon that weighs 25 pounds will eat more protein every night than an inactive 25 pound yard dog! Is a meal of bluebirds more valuable than a Whooping Crane egg or a nest full of baby Grasshopper Sparrows? If we are losing as many bluebirds in boxes mounted to smooth metal poles protected with grease, guards, snake traps and ant and blowfly protection then how many species of birds are being eaten that nest in the grass, vines, bushes and small trees in our fields? Instead of bluebirds tonight maybe the fox's next meal will be a ground nesting Whip-poor-will or Kill Deer....KK From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor "at"msn.com] One thing I will be thankful for this Thanksgiving is Bluebird-L. Reading it has been helpful and an education for me. Being able to read all the discussions, varied viewpoints and input from people all over the continent is something you can't find in books. The discussion about "tin cans" may have gone on for awhile but where else would you finally get input from someone in Albert, Canada who has seen them in use? Over and over again in our emails it is obvious that geographic locations greatly affect what we should or shouldn't do to help the birds. I am also disappointed that information that is given out by organizations does not always seem to be correct or in the best interest of the birds. Our local FPD manages a golf course which has been certified as being managed for wildlife, much to their credit. But recently in looking the golf course over, I was surprised to see some of the boxes attached low on tree trunks. When I asked them about it they said they were just following the recommendations given to them by AUDUBON!! It's not the FPD's fault if they have put up boxes which are not as safe as they could be. They were just innocently following the instructions given them. With all the information out there, and not all of it correct, it does take some sorting and searching to learn what is correct for each person's particular situation. Bluebird-L gives us that forum for discovery and an opportunity to learn from many people with a wide range of experiences. Thanks to everyone! Charlene Anchor, EC Illinois From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Well, many thanks to you Charlene! Your post makes it worth some of us being called "know it alls" by a certain lister and also by one that grumbled about too many posts!! Also, enduring some "nasty" private e-mails. You know, I commented about the video put out by Don and Lillian Stokes, "The Basics Of Bluebirding" where they show a man looking into a nestbox that is on a tree trunk. After all my efforts to explain that is a "no, no", I had to explain again at presentations that some people in different states do put them there. But, for the life of me, I can't believe they do not have ANY climbing predators. The dialogue about "tin cans" was opened Monday morning by me and so what if it takes a couple of days? Some people do not read their mail as fast as others. I posted a lot, but am sure I would not have if we had had more courtesy shown to us. This can that I read that was recommended was a soup can. Just any size I suppose. I have not changed my position on it. I am certainly glad you feel this discussion helped you! That is what we are all about. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Keith, our mission statement says we support ALL native cavity nesters. I cherish all the other little birds that nest on my trail in and around my place. We are not just talking about Bluebirds here. I would not recommend the tin can or the thin Wal-Mart nestbox that you are talking about. I am glad that we have come as far as we have to improve our efforts in helping our wildlife. I preach that there is a better way and why not do it? I know a person that has so many nestboxes on his trail he can only monitor once a month. There is no way he can afford guards for all of them. His fledging rate (Bluebirds) this year was less than 50%. To me, I had rather do it on a smaller scale and fledge more. I would shudder to think that I was raising snake and other predator food, when with less to care for, I could do better. There is nothing more heartwarming to me and my daughter, Sheryl Bassi, who helps me at presentations when we are before a group that really appreciates what we are saying and wants to get all the help they can. We both come away "just glowing". Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Larry A Broadbent [mailto:rockets "at"mnsi.net] Dear List members, Cornell Lab of Ornithology is considered by most professional Ornithologist and serious birders, to be the leading / premiere center for Scientific Bird Study and Bird Biology in the World. I whole heartedly agree with this position. However on their the Bird House Network (TBN), there is one set of plans that Really disturbs me and the people here in Canada that are working on the Prothonotary Warbler recovery team. That issue is TBN's Prothonotary Warbler Milk Carton Plans. Case in point: The following link on the Bird House Network (TBN) has these plans for: Prothonotary Warbler Milk Carton Plans http://birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse/bhbasics/prowplans.html These plans and recommendations for using plastic milk cartons ( basically duck taped to trees) should be totally removed. They are an abomination to the proper conservation for the Prothonotary Warblers. The Prothonotary Warblers are on Canada's Extreme Endangered Species List. There are less than 20 pairs of Prothonotary Warblers in all of Canada. And they only nest in southern Ontario. (most of the nesting pairs within a hours drive or less from where I live). Please, IF you feel the same way as I do about NOT using plastic milk cartons, would you email Cornell Lab of Ornithology & TBN and ask them to remove these http://birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse/bhbasics/prowplans.html abomination plans for the Prothonotay Warblers? Evelyn Cooper is right on the mark with the statement, "our mission statement says we support ALL native cavity nesters". I agree 100%. Evelyn Cooper also commented about the video put out by Don and Lillian Stokes, "The Basics Of Bluebirding" where they show a man looking into a nestbox that is on a tree trunk. After all her efforts to explain that is a "no, no", she had to explain again at presentations that some people in different states do put them there. But, for the life of me, I can't believe they do not have ANY climbing predators. Don & Lillian Stokes should NEVER have included video footage of a Bluebird nestbox mounted on a tree. That sets a Bad example for novices / newbees to Bluebirding & Cavity nesting birds. They think it must be OK. After all, don't real cavity nesting birds nest in cavities / holes in real trees? Yes they do. But this issue is conservation of cavity nesting birds. How to increase the numbers of successful nestings and increase the number of fledglings for which ever species of Bluebird or cavity nesting bird we are after. This is accomplished by mounting well designed and constructed wood nestboxes, mounted to metal steel / galvanized or EMT Poles. NOT wood fence poles or wood 2 x 2's! Metal poles should be equipped with some type of Predator baffle and or grease to deter climbing predators. Garry Springer of Real Bird Homes.com has also experimented with mounting the majority of his Bluebird nestboxes at heights of 8 to 10 feet. He has found that this height puts the nestbox above the scent trail for most ground climbing predators. And he has found that he gets more species of cavity nesting birds, such as Nuthatches, and Red Headed Woodpeckers using his Chalet Bluebird nestboxes. Gary has also observerd that Bluebirds in his area of Georgia will automatically take one of his 8 to 10 foot mounted Bluebird nestboxes over one of his that is mounted at 5'. Yes, it requires a good steep ladder to monitor, but the results are Very Good. I am not recommending that one mounts all his/her Bluebird nestboxes at these higher heights. But you should consider possible a few for your trails. I personally will be including a significant number of 8 to 10 foot mounted nest for the 2005 nesting season, here in Ontario. I'm very interested in getting as many Flycatchers, Nuthatches, and Woodpeckers to nest as I can. Remember, its primarily the Woodpeckers that make the natural holes in trees that all the other cavity nesting birds compete for nest sites. Regards, Larry A Broadbent Chatham, ON From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd "at"tds.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 1:07 PM Subject: Re:tin cans/more info I, for one, welcome all these exchanges about tin cans as bird-houses. From: Kenny Kleinpeter [mailto:kpkmajk "at"cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:31 PM Subject: RE: tin cans/more info Your first paragraph seems to imply that tin cans, though sub-standard are as good as anything Wal-Mart sells so, go ahead and use them anyway. I have a big problem with using anything Wal-Mart sells as the de facto standard. Your second paragraph seems to contradict what you said in yesterday's post. Your third paragraph talks about all the work that would be involved in bringing a tin can up to acceptable standards by using, of all things, wood. 1964 was a long time ago -- nailing tin cans to trees may have been better for bluebirds than nothing but today, you would think we know better than to lure and trick "our" bluebirds into being raccoon food. Nailing tin cans to trees is by all credible standards, unacceptable whether you think it was You're darn tootin' when you say that I get caught up in protecting "my" I'm afraid that I provide adequate nesting sites to bluebirds so that there will be more bluebirds -- not to provide food for the wonderful snakes, coons and hawks in the world. I think your attitude reflects your being a naturalist and that's fine and worthy of respect. I'm a dismal failure as a naturalist -- I just have a soft spot in my heart for secondary cavity nesters since we humans (naturalists and otherwise) have nearly wiped out any nesting opportunities they may have of continuing their species. This should be the wrong place to suggest nailing tin cans to trees. :-/ Respectfully, Kenny Kleinpeter From: charlene anchor [mailto:charleneanchor "at"msn.com] I read Keith's discussion about tin cans in an historical perspective and found it interesting. I didn't think he was recommending that we all run out and put up tin cans as nest boxes. So far, from what I've read on Bluebird-L, I wouldn't agree with doing that. It sounds like there would only be limited situations in which it would work. So why risk it? Progress has been made since people first started putting out nest boxes, tin cans, gourds or what have you, and there are many generations of nest boxes to choose from which makes the topic more confusing. We now have a Cornell Lab studying these matters, there is research of all kinds being done on birds and there is the experience of many people to help someone make better choices and learn from. If we put up a nest box it only makes sense to put up the best one in the manner in which it will be most successful. Otherwise, why waste one's time and effort in doing it? And the reality of nature is a cruel one. It is a constant battle for survival. I don't hate the house wren, the house sparrow, the starling, the snake or various mammals who eat bluebirds, eggs or other birds. They are just doing what they need to do to survive. But I do hate the fact that it happens! I want to protect the boxes and birds that I am trying to help, in the best way possible, whatever that takes. We can't protect everything - only the things we are working with. Charlene Anchor, EC Illinois From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Charlene, some of Keith's post did seem to have a historical perspective, but it did come across to me that if it worked then, it could work now. Also, to go to the trouble to make a tin can as good as a thin wall nestbox purchased at Wal-Mart sounded like he promoted that. He also stated that he thought we should see if we could get utility companies to make better nestboxes and put them out here like up north. Well, I had problem about the guards and monitoring of such nestboxes and if they would still be tin and in the sun. One positive thing I read and I think it was in his first post was not to put them in the hot sun. About three or four years ago, we had drought and heat that sent the index up to 120. This went on all summer long. My whole yard of beautiful St. Augustine grass was brown, even that I watered. Can you just imagine how hot it would be in a tin can even in the shade on days like that? It was terrible. We have really done a number on our cavity nesters as for habitat and we should do the best we can by them. Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder "at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 10:46 AM Subject: more historical/hysterical on tin cans and predators :-)) Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Name ANY non bird related corporation in the USA or Canada other than the Bluebird School Bus Company that continues to help Jack Finch in Bailey North Carolina with annual donations to the cavity nesters for more than 20 years! This shows that we squandered 20 years of effort because of lack of results or lack of information or lack of input or lack of participation! ... Now imagine with 10,000 people per county killing/eating every predator/competitor in the area for 130 years and then if you began installing 300 nestboxes scattered all over a very large very rural area EVERY year that in about 10 years you were still having about 3,000 old nestboxes in addition to all of the woodpecker cavities if you would not see more cavity nesters! Pull up national maps of Christmas Bird Counts and Breeding Bird Survey's of the 60's 70's 80's ETC and you can see exactly where major nestbox installations were 20 years earlier! Spin forward in time till today and you won't see a gun in a rack in a single pickup in our county. Few people still eat coon or possum's and bluebirds don't sleep very well at night in any nestbox. If you read The Bluebird Monitor's Guide it tells how to save your bluebirds and other cavity nesters from predators, heat and insects better than any other bluebird book. It tells about the very latest techniques in nestbox styles and the best ideas that still worked at the time of printing. I try to get up every morning and in a hour or two answer personal posts and try to put together about four good thought provoking posts a week about the past history or the possible impacts or the future of bluebirding to the list before I head off to work. When a post stirs up passionate responses from Canada to Florida, New York to California then the list is better for it! I watched Animal Planet this weekend and they showed a nice film clip of a family of raccoons running up a smooth steel rod Shepard's hook type pole to eat sunflower seeds out of a bird feeder. In the early 80's 4" diameter PVC pipe worked for stopping coons, in the late 80's the PVC failed. Switching to 6" diameter PVC worked for a few more years then failed. In the 80's 24" Just remember we REALLY do LOVE each other on this list at ALL times! What works GREAT today probably won't last our lifetime. The predator species we stop today will be replaced with another species tomorrow. What I write about this week we will all forget next month. If you build two nestboxes every night there will be another 700 + nestboxes in your county next year! If you put them up correctly on the best pole, in the best location, in the best area for bluebirds and make sure that it is on someone else's land and you teach 700 people how to do this hobby correctly it will help immensely! It will help the bluebirds if we get everyone to eat coon all next year AND for Thanksgiving instead of the 267 million turkeys! KK From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] You talk about companies that produce these bad nestboxes and maybe sometimes we have to get a little on the hysterical side to get SOMEBODY'S attention!!! Many of us think "tin cans" are in this category. In this study that David Fox did in South LA., he talked about some of these cardboard nestboxes being torn completely apart by predators. Many people are not educated still about the perils of bad and good nestboxes. It is a struggle to get the Message out. Any of us, especially in leadership positions, should be careful how we come across in our teaching and recommending things. I personally think it is cruel to wildlife to put up something for them that endangers their life or their reproducing of their species. ... Evelyn From: Lawrence Herbert [mailto:lherbert "at"4state.com] ...however the directions do say to place them on a tree standing in the water to reduce predators and that if they're strapped to a tree on land then mount them on a pole with a predator guard... Good birding, Larry H. Joplin MO. From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] Do you have any snakes in water like we do that can crawl up the tree? They are known to do it. Those milk cartons are LA by the thousands and on land with no predator guards. I have posted to another list serve urging them to use them and they think I am a nutty Bluebird Lady. Evelyn From: Evelyn Cooper [mailto:emcooper "at"bayou.com] I meant I urged the people to use the predator guards. I also meant people IN LA use the milk cartons for nestboxes by the thousands. Some people in LA do use wooden nestboxes for them. They nest on the Ouachita River in Monroe about 35 miles west of me. One of our members has them nest close to the levee there in a wooden nestbox. Also, there is a man in South LA that does studies with PW's and with different types of nesting boxes and he states that the plastic jug is hotter than the wood and the aluminum is as cool as the wood. I thought I had saved it, but I cannot find it. Why can't people use wood for these little birds like they do the Bluebirds? Evelyn Cooper Delhi, LA
From: Paula [mailto:PaulaZ "at"columbus.rr.com] Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 10:33 AM Subject: The Hole Story Well, I have been reading all the posts about tin cans and milk jugs and it is all very interesting. Regardless of our best efforts, we are bound to lose some birds to predators, weather, disease, etc. I think as bluebirders, though, we should try to give the native nesters our BEST efforts. Is a nesting site adequate or is it best practice? Why settle for 50% fledge rates with adequate or substandard setups when you could easily have 80 to 90% fledge rates with best practice setups? If we put a 1 1/2" hole out there, EABL and other native nesters may enter it and try to nest. We have heard sad tales on this list of birds flying into downspouts or open PVC pipe and then getting stuck and dying because they had to explore that hole. Regardless of the material the hole goes into, the birds will explore it and one of them is bound to nest in there. Now, for the "whole" story. I believe that our best practice is much better than nature provides. Natural cavities are easily raided by predators. Are substandard setups with no monitoring better than nature provides? Paula Z From: Linda [mailto:linyl"at"alltel.net] Hi, everyone! I don't know if anyone remembers, but I wrote about a month ago that bluebirds had taken up in a terracotta house in the woods with the hole too large and no baffles--just hanging from a tree. The box I had with baffles, post and good location had been abandoned as my husband had backed into the post and rolled the eggs. … When we noticed the bluebirds fledging, we found a chickadee, house wrens, a robin all there cheering them on or maybe they want that terracotta house. From: Linda [mailto:linyl"at"alltel.net] Especially for Bet and Dottie, I would like to ask why the nesting material was so scant in the Terracotta house that I've written about? I cleaned it out today and there was not much left to clean--some pine needles and a little moss that the Chickadees probably put in first. I'm very curious about how this birdhouse worked. It is cylinder shaped, thick and heavy and does have l l/2 inch hole--thank goodness. I measured it. The top comes to a point where you hang wire. Do you think that the box was very warm and they didn't need much. It also has a drainage hole in the bottom. Maybe this is an ideal birdhouse for bluebirds. I bought it in the mountains of North Ga. as a novelty. A House Sparrow started in the original birdhouse that I have mounted near a pasture, but the House Wren has recently put sticks into the house and I haven't seen the sparrow lately. What do you think about this situation also? The pasture is now full of horses--wasn't when I first put up the house a few years ago. My house is wooded and the little terracotta is there. Nothing seems to bother the house except for House Wrens, but the bluebirds hold their ground with them. Thanks so much for your help! It's nice to know other people who love birding. Linda in NW GA From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:18 AM Subject: Fw: Cleaning out Eastern Bluebird Box Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas Some females will build an open bottomed nest consisting only of an outside ring and lay eggs on the bare bottom of the nestbox floor. If the entrance hole is close to the bottom of the nestbox then very often the female will not build the nest taller than the entrance hole but in larger floored, shallow nestboxes if there is room she may actually build the nest in a back corner and have the eggs higher than the entrance hole. Tell us the size and depth of the terracotta nestbox. You should be able to use a wire and clean out the old nest and re-use this box for this year since the other wood boxes are being visited by wrens and House Sparrows. KK From: Linda [mailto:linyl"at"alltel.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:40 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning out Eastern Bluebird Box--additional Thank you so much, Keith! I noticed the nest was in a ring--not covering From: Bet Zimmerman [mailto:ezdz"at"charter.net] Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 12:11 PM Subject: RE: Cleaning out Eastern Bluebird Box--additional Hi Linda, I agree with Keith. I've noticed some birds in a hurry/maybe inexperienced/later broods seem to use less nesting material. I guess limitations of this kind of house would be inability to put a hole restrictor on to keep house sparrows away from chickadees to titmice, if they are a problem in your area (probably not in woods.) Also, sounds kind of tough to clean out and check number of eggs, health of babies, or remove blowflies/do a nest change if necessary. Doesn't sound like it has any ventilation either. I assume you're not talking about those colonial style ceramic houses sold at Williamsburg that look like a bottle on their side. http://www.nestbox.com/sections/galleries/bluebirds/e_wolfer1.jpg Bet from CT From: PTom [mailto:ptom"at"austin.rr.com] Keith Krider wrote: "I would look for "cement board" or "Hardie Board" and From construction supervisors* in a new subdivision, I've obtained slats of With a knife and a straight edge, it can be scored to create a clean break - I use the material to create "HeatShields" (2nd roof and sides, with 1/2" (*In my area, home builders prosecute those who pick up "scrap", without Pauline Tom From: RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com [mailto:RBALTRUNAS"at"cs.com] In a Message dated 5/30/05 9:03:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ptom"at"austin.rr.com writes: In my area, home builders prosecute those who pick up "scrap", without permission I appreciate all the comments on my Cypress. I not only got permission, but the owner helped me start the pile and was glad he didn't have to pay someone to put it in the dumpster. He was also happy to hear my plans for the wood. I also got permission to take 2x6 pine scraps and 3/4" plywood from a dumpster at a different site. With all the construction going on here in Florida and still coming I could probably get enough wood scraps for 1,000 birdhouses. Don't have the time for that many! One time I asked for some PVC pipe in what looked like a dumpster. The guy in charge did not even return my phone call. So I stayed off the site and touched nothing. Maybe that pipe was not being thrown out. You have to be careful and decent about it. Ron From: rob barron [mailto:rebel1956"at"comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:43 PM Subject: RE: nest box hole size? Hi Tree, The synthetic box is an ongoing experiment. The material I used is sold at Lowes as deck planking and is made from recycled plastic jugs and wood fibers. In the deck planking form it has rounded edges, so I ran each edge against the rip fence of my table saw to get a flat surface for tight joints. Other than that, it's just like working with wood, but it doesn't dry out and crack, and it doesn't swell either. It seems to bulge a little around screws if you don't pre-drill the holes. I had to glue several pieces together to make a roof, but all my wood glues bonded it well and made a waterproof seam. I haven't had good luck with nails and don't use them for anything but keeping the door closed at the top, and even then I use two finishing nails in pre-drilled holes angled downward. I've had better luck with screws for the door hinge than nails. None of my birds seem to read Sibley's guide or the archives here either. One other possible advantage of the synthetic lumber, other than it being an environmentally sustainable material, is that it is very slick and pretty hard. I've watched squirrels jump on the roof and slide right off. It is pretty heavy material though. You wouldn't want to carry 20 at a time on a trail. Thanks, From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: RE: nest box hole size? Keith Kridler Mt. Pleasant, Texas From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com] Rob, Hope this is helpful -- From: Tree Greenwood [mailto:doctree"at"crosslink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:36 AM Subject: Synthetic Box Roofs (was "Re: nest box hole size?") On Tue 7 Feb 2006 at 23:43, rob barron Thanks, Rob, Roofs and floors deteriorate first on/in my nest boxes. Wooden boxes with synthetic roofs make a lot of sense; lighter than the all-synthetic but lasting longer than all-wood, a great compromise. > One other possible advantage of the synthetic lumber, other than it That does it. Synthetic roofs next year. I've already finished much of my annual maintenance for this season. Most boxes are in the shop with fresh caulk, cleaned-out vent holes, new wooden roofs or floors, etc. Thanks again for a great idea, R J 'Tree' Greenwood From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com] Hi Rob, From: rob barron [mailto:rebel1956"at"comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:55 PM Subject: RE: Synthetic Box Roofs (was "Re: nest box hole size?") Hi Tree, Just one more comment on synthetic materials. I saw some new colors and dimensions (a thinner, wider plank- I think it was 10") that looked like good roof and floor material. They are also carrying a 6 foot 4 X 4 post with preformed caps. Some are made to slide over a metal post, but one was completely hollow and looked like all you would have to do is saw it into 6" Thanks, From: Paul & Thelma Montgomery [mailto:pmtm"at"wpcs.net] I have a question for anyone......Why will my bluebirds not use an expensive metal bluebird box? It's recommended thru' the Bluebird Society,too.We bought this new from Wal-Marts,3 yrs ago,& there has not been one single solitary bird of any kind use it.Not even a sparrow. I'm bugged by this. From: bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com [mailto:bluebirdsnbirdfeeders"at"gmail.com] Could you expound a bit on what you mean by a metal box? .... From: Bruce Burdett [mailto:blueburd"at"verizon.net] Thelma, From: Keith & Sandy Kridler [mailto:txbluebirder"at"sbcglobal.net] Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:57 PM Subject: Re: BLUEBIRD HOUSES Nature House Inc. P.O. Box 390, Griggsville, IL. 62340-0390 makes a BBH-1 from about 24 Gauge Aluminum.
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